reparations for slavery

[Woodruff]

In fucking America, all you are guaranteed is a fucking opportunity.

And sometimes, not even that.

[natty dread]

I want more fucking opportunities!

I get far too few opportunities for fucking...

[SultanOfSurreal]

Not any time soon at all, I agree on that, but let's keep the conversation going.

How would the government be able to determine who exactly deserves reparations? I'm assuming that they would require citizens to prove that they have an ancestor who was slave, and then some government body would verify that.

However, how much does each family/person receive and how is that number determined? What if some people have less ancestors who were slaves than those whose who had more ancestors who were slaves?

And does having a slave ancestor alone qualify one to receive reparations? What if one's ancestors were slaves and then after their limited amount of freedom became fairly successful in life. Do people with those ancestors deserve less reparations than those whose ancestors were slaves and who weren't as lucky/affluent as other recently freed slaves?

[just throwing random stuff out there, pick and choose at will, fora-goers]

these are open questions for all of us to answer. of course, none of it interferes with the basic rightness of reparations as a concept.

Do we owe a debt to people this country has wronged? Absolutely. Can it just be paid in cash? Of course not.

the real debt we owe is full inclusion in our society. in our system though money is the fuel that makes it all possible, so money will go a long ways towards fully enfranchising and including black people.

A society cannot, however, just put a dollar figure one every injustice in its history, and fix it. It can mostly only work towards correcting current injustices, and more importantly, in correcting such an injustice, there would be further injustice, which would arguably need to be resolved at a later date.

the current injustice, the disinclusion of blacks in our process, is a direct result of slavery. we can help solve this through reparations. i have said repeatedly that it will not fix everything, but none can deny it will go a long way.

The government pays = our taxes =we pay. Ironically enough, this would mean that blacks would be paying for their own reparations.

black people are going to be paying taxes whether or not there are reparations. so basically they would just be getting those taxes back, plus a substantial sum on top of that. if you sell a $50 bill for $100, you're still making a $50 profit.

and if one year a black person pays, say, $1,000 in taxes and receives $100,000 of reparations, they are still receiving $99,000 in profit.

actually they're getting the full $100,000 as profit, since without reparations they wouldn't be seeing the original $1,000 they paid in again anyway. think of it as a really big tax return.

Furthermore, if you want reparations, why just the US government. Many governments were explicitly and implicitly involved.

first of all the US government is the only government we can force to pay. but more importantly, what other governments involved in the american slave trade still exists? (hint: the answer is none of them)

In an ideal world, slavery would never have existed, no one would have taken advantage of Africa, etc. We are not in an ideal world.

"we are not in an ideal world so we cannot strive to fix anything, ever" jesus fucking christ i hate arguments like this so much

Further, when you criticize slavery, it has to be seen as a step in a continuum of progress. Slavery is perhaps better than death. The US was the "last" holdout of a depraved system within the civilized world.

what

However, to claim that simply throwing money is going to really solve anything, do more than make a few recipiants temporarily feel better, is simply silly.

so what you're saying is black people are incapable of properly spending their money for themselves, that they are so stupid they would all waste it on spinning rims and 40s and fail to make long-term investments that would benefit them.

i mean what would you do if tomorrow you got a check for $100,000 or $200,000 or more? would you blow it all? or would you perhaps invest it in stock, or buy land, or do something else useful? do you think black people wouldn't be doing these same things?

This is far below your normal standards for trolling, both in content and subject matter. I'm very disappointed.

stuffy white dude from nebraska can't believe anyone would seriously suggest the idea of reparations, film at 11

anyone that thinks reparations are needed...feel free to write the local black family a check round christmas time....otherwise I dont feel the need to pay for something that I wasnt a part of....NOT A SINGLE BLACK PERSON IN THE USA TO WAS EVER A SLAVE. they dont deserve reparations anymore than we deserve to have to pay them.

so your carefully considered opinion is "f*ck you got mine"

at least you were honest in naming yourself

The “American Government” did not commit the tort. American slave owners committed the tort. While the descendents of slaves might have a right to receive the payment from those who committed the tort, the descendents of those slave owners are not liable for the payment of the tort.

Even assuming that the descendents are liable, the American Government, now consisting of a whole lot of people who are not descendents of slave owners is not liable. Why should, (for example) Barrack H. Obama (who is not a descendent of slaves) be responsible for paying reparations for a thing neither he nor his ancestors had any action in?

the american government definitely is responsible. they instituted and upheld the laws that made slavery possible in the first place. and therefore we can hold the government as an institution culpable for the effects of those laws.

i have no fucking idea what you're on about with "BUT OBAMA NEVER OWNED A SLAVE" tack, you may want to consider moving on to a discussion less high-falutin' because you are seriously confused and it is showing

I realize this is none of my business as I don't live in The America...

But if you say the government should pay the african-americans... then what about african-americans who are in the government? Will they pay to themselves?

sometimes it is really hard for me to wrap my mind around how stupid the average person on this forum is. i have seen body building forums with more informed debate.

[jonesthecurl]

Drop and give me twenty.

[muy_thaiguy]

Drop and give me twenty.

*picks up 2 dimes (not the the ccer)* Here you go.

[Woodruff]

This is far below your normal standards for trolling, both in content and subject matter. I'm very disappointed.

stuffy white dude from nebraska can't believe anyone would seriously suggest the idea of reparations, film at 11

Stuffy white dude from Nebraska is still disappointed at your feeble trolling attempt.

[PLAYER57832]

Furthermore, if you want reparations, why just the US government. Many governments were explicitly and implicitly involved.

first of all the US government is the only government we can force to pay. but more importantly, what other governments involved in the american slave trade still exists? (hint: the answer is none of them)

Wrong... quite a few. Most of Europe was involved in the US slave trade. They might not have allowed slaves on their territories, but they were happy to take the profits home. And though you can argue that regimes have changed, so have they in the US.

In an ideal world, slavery would never have existed, no one would have taken advantage of Africa, etc. We are not in an ideal world.

"we are not in an ideal world so we cannot strive to fix anything, ever" jesus fucking christ i hate arguments like this so much

Well, so do I, which is why that's not what I said. I said that in this particular case the steps you suggest for "correction" would be far, far more harmful than simply letting it be.

Further, as I said later on, giving reparations is not going to truly solve anything.

Further, when you criticize slavery, it has to be seen as a step in a continuum of progress. Slavery is perhaps better than death. The US was the "last" holdout of a depraved system within the civilized world.

what

Its called not judging people of the past by 20th century norms. TODAY, we now see slavery as abhorrant, thanks to the fight of many, many people -- black, white and of other races, who came to that conclusion about 200 years ago. The final "battle" in that debate was in the US. However, that we were the last holdout does not necessarily mena we are either the sole or the primary guilt-holders in this matter.

Times change, thankfully. However, going back and re-writing history, deciding to go back and defined as crimes things that simply were not back then, this we just cannot do.

However, to claim that simply throwing money is going to really solve anything, do more than make a few recipiants temporarily feel better, is simply silly.

so what you're saying is black people are incapable of properly spending their money for themselves, that they are so stupid they would all waste it on spinning rims and 40s and fail to make long-term investments that would benefit them.

No, I am saying that it will cause far more problems than it will even possibly solve.
a. Most of the people who would have to pay under your plan don't even descend from people who caused the problem. In many cases, we descend from people who actualy FAUGHT AGAINST slavery-- whether we are black or white. IN many more cases, we descend from people on BOTH sides!

b. The truth is this will do absolutely nothing to solve the real problem, which is this idea that we have any right to judge someone based on their skin or hair color, etc. Far better to put the money towards education, etc. That would benefit everyone.

i mean what would you do if tomorrow you got a check for $100,000 or $200,000 or more? would you blow it all? or would you perhaps invest it in stock, or buy land, or do something else useful? do you think black people wouldn't be doing these same things?

This is utterly irrelevant. It has nothing to do with whether the recipiants would spend the money well or not. So what if they invested the money? How does that do anything but make those people feel a bit better for a while? Does it really and truly solve anything? NO! And that is my argument.

(and, while it was NOT my point, Just to use lottery holders and others who recieve big windfalls as an example, most people do NOT use it wisely)

[Imaweasel]

i mean what would you do if tomorrow you got a check for $100,000 or $200,000 or more? would you blow it all? or would you perhaps invest it in stock, or buy land, or do something else useful? do you think black people wouldn't be doing these same things?

well at the risk of being racist....many times certain races that live in certian place of the usa have not always seen fit to use the money they have wisely. Certian people have been know to blow money given them on beer and cigs and drugs and other not so helpful things instead of providing for the family.


It is very unintelligent to deny certian trends of certian subcultures of the usa and to dismiss bringing these concerns to light as racist because then the problems will never be solved.

[Neoteny]

Racist.

[PLAYER57832]

i mean what would you do if tomorrow you got a check for $100,000 or $200,000 or more? would you blow it all? or would you perhaps invest it in stock, or buy land, or do something else useful? do you think black people wouldn't be doing these same things?

well at the risk of being racist....many times certain races that live in certian place of the usa have not always seen fit to use the money they have wisely. Certian people have been know to blow money given them on beer and cigs and drugs and other not so helpful things instead of providing for the family.

This is true, but it is not tied to race in any way.

It is very unintelligent to deny certian trends of certian subcultures of the usa and to dismiss bringing these concerns to light as racist because then the problems will never be solved.

It is even less intelligent to think these issues are really tied to race, and not general socioeconomic, education and other factors.

Continual insistance that these are "race" issues is part of what has impeded progress.

And... by that I mean both blame and the victim culture, both.

[Imaweasel]

seriously PLAYER57832 you are one of the most self blinded people I have ever seen.

If there is a race of purple people that live in a city call "can" and most of these purple people eat other people they catch because as long as they can remember their parents and grandparents have then we would rightly say the RACE of purple people are cannibals. We would not say this problematic issue is not really tied to race, but to general socioeconomic, education and other factors.

Weather there are other factors involved in why a large percentage of a certain race of people do something or act in a cetain way or follow the same trends or not it doesnt change the fact that people are personally responsible for their own actions.

EXAMPLE: No one is claiming someone breaks the law because they are Black. BUT its a fact larger percentage of crime caused by our young troubled black youth. To deny this as a fact is blinding youself. You cant arrive at a solution if you refuse to correctly Identify the problem

NOW. We have to examine why black youth would be more likely to commit crime.
YOUR OPINION: "its not really tied to race, but to general socioeconomic, education and other factors."

My Opinion: They are raised in a subculture that does not appreciate many of the the basic values of society. The law does not have much respect in this subculture. neither does respect for women. Neither does taking care of a family.

Fact. When a child is raised in a certain environment 1 of 2 things happens...the child accepts or rejects that teaching. Most people just go with the flow.


Therefore to deny race as a factor is ignorant. It is NOT because of the RACE of someone they are a criminal or not(as every person makes their own moral choices) BUT BEING BORN in to a particular RACE in particular place sure gives someone alot more potential and opportunity to become less than lawabiding. A child born into a spartan village generally becomes a spartan warrior.

In this light then I would contest that it IS about race because unless we can admit that and understand why a certian group of people do something we can not fix the problem.

To deny that is to deny that group of people the help they need to fix the problem

[BigBallinStalin]

A society cannot, however, just put a dollar figure one every injustice in its history, and fix it. It can mostly only work towards correcting current injustices, and more importantly, in correcting such an injustice, there would be further injustice, which would arguably need to be resolved at a later date.

the current injustice, the disinclusion of blacks in our process, is a direct result of slavery. we can help solve this through reparations. i have said repeatedly that it will not fix everything, but none can deny it will go a long way.

However, to claim that simply throwing money is going to really solve anything, do more than make a few recipiants temporarily feel better, is simply silly.

so what you're saying is black people are incapable of properly spending their money for themselves, that they are so stupid they would all waste it on spinning rims and 40s and fail to make long-term investments that would benefit them.

i mean what would you do if tomorrow you got a check for $100,000 or $200,000 or more? would you blow it all? or would you perhaps invest it in stock, or buy land, or do something else useful? do you think black people wouldn't be doing these same things?

This is utterly irrelevant [regarding reparation payments to those deserving of it]. It has nothing to do with whether the recipiants would spend the money well or not. So what if they invested the money? How does that do anything but make those people feel a bit better for a while? Does it really and truly solve anything? NO! And that is my argument.

Actually, this would balance things out rather nicely--exactly why Affirmative Action exists to this day. AA is part apology and part of a way of making things more "fair" or "just."

However, what's great with reparations is that it's an instant injection, that immediately shifts those wronged into a more level playing field. That, and if it's done, it would be a huge sign towards the world that the American government does actually try to right some wrongs (great for propaganda purposes) at a relatively cheap price.

What it comes down to is the price tag. How much money is doled out, and how much do taxpayers of each bracket have to pay for this?

And the burden on the taxpayers could be lightened if the government were to just cut some unnecessary expense (sure, there's plenty, and sure that can be difficult with all the grab-assing and binding agreements there), but it can be done at a very low cost to the American public.

A lot of people don't like the idea of reparations because they feel they're getting cheated; of course, they tend to forget history and its consequences on a certain group of people, which is why they feel it's not fair. No, being enslaved for over 150 years and dealing with the repercussions of such is unfair and should be righted. Reparations are a cheap and efficient way to alleviate the problems of this issue.

[BigBallinStalin]

i mean what would you do if tomorrow you got a check for $100,000 or $200,000 or more? would you blow it all? or would you perhaps invest it in stock, or buy land, or do something else useful? do you think black people wouldn't be doing these same things?

well at the risk of being racist....many times certain races that live in certian place of the usa have not always seen fit to use the money they have wisely. Certian people have been know to blow money given them on beer and cigs and drugs and other not so helpful things instead of providing for the family.


It is very unintelligent to deny certian trends of certian subcultures of the usa and to dismiss bringing these concerns to light as racist because then the problems will never be solved.

You're talking about rednecks, right? Cuz that's what it can also sounds like, ya racist prick. You just took the behavior of a small portion of the group and applied it to the whole. How dumb can you get?

Therefore to deny race as a factor is ignorant. It is NOT because of the RACE of someone they are a criminal or not(as every person makes their own moral choices) BUT BEING BORN in to a particular RACE in particular place sure gives someone alot more potential and opportunity to become less than lawabiding. A child born into a spartan village generally becomes a spartan warrior.

Ones environment and experiences determine how one will behave in society. Nothing to do with race.

(PS: nice trolling.)

THORNHEART, glad to have you back! Or is this GabonX without the sheep's wool?

[SultanOfSurreal]

seriously PLAYER57832 you are one of the most self blinded people I have ever seen.

If there is a race of purple people that live in a city call "can" and most of these purple people eat other people they catch because as long as they can remember their parents and grandparents have then we would rightly say the RACE of purple people are cannibals. We would not say this problematic issue is not really tied to race, but to general socioeconomic, education and other factors.

Weather there are other factors involved in why a large percentage of a certain race of people do something or act in a cetain way or follow the same trends or not it doesnt change the fact that people are personally responsible for their own actions.

EXAMPLE: No one is claiming someone breaks the law because they are Black. BUT its a fact larger percentage of crime caused by our young troubled black youth. To deny this as a fact is blinding youself. You cant arrive at a solution if you refuse to correctly Identify the problem

NOW. We have to examine why black youth would be more likely to commit crime.
YOUR OPINION: "its not really tied to race, but to general socioeconomic, education and other factors."

My Opinion: They are raised in a subculture that does not appreciate many of the the basic values of society. The law does not have much respect in this subculture. neither does respect for women. Neither does taking care of a family.

Fact. When a child is raised in a certain environment 1 of 2 things happens...the child accepts or rejects that teaching. Most people just go with the flow.


Therefore to deny race as a factor is ignorant. It is NOT because of the RACE of someone they are a criminal or not(as every person makes their own moral choices) BUT BEING BORN in to a particular RACE in particular place sure gives someone alot more potential and opportunity to become less than lawabiding. A child born into a spartan village generally becomes a spartan warrior.

In this light then I would contest that it IS about race because unless we can admit that and understand why a certian group of people do something we can not fix the problem.

To deny that is to deny that group of people the help they need to fix the problem

man this post just goes and goes doesn't it

[PLAYER57832]

Imaweasel, seriously.. you need to study a bit more about scientific methodology, statistical correlations, data comparisons, and cause=effect before you make even more of fool of yourself.

EXAMPLE: No one is claiming someone breaks the law because they are Black. BUT its a fact larger percentage of crime caused by our young troubled black youth. To deny this as a fact is blinding youself. You cant arrive at a solution if you refuse to correctly Identify the problem

No, to deny this is to agree with the scientific community on this matter, as well as most social institutions that deal with these matters.

You will still find some ignorant folks, a few cops who feel their "personnal experience" (really a self-fulfilling prophecy -- if you expect to see more blacks doing crime, you will pay more attention to blacks and therefore catch more blacks than whites) and some others thow think this is true, but in fact, it is not.

[Falkomagno]

yeap. you should pay...but there is not enough money for repair the fact of being hunted, and convert to a slave.....for millions of people. -it just not enough