Terrorist Watch List Problems

[PLAYER57832]

lists HAVE protected the US for some odd 6 years...
It works.

In those 6 years I have read about countless terrorist plans foiled. It works.
May not be fair, but it works. Get over it.

We have been lucky.
And if we win only by violating our most basic principals, have we really won?

[army of nobunaga]

you are wrong and ignorantly so. you are wrong...

lucky?

you are not even privy to how many terrorist attempts we have foiled, but even the mass media should clue you in. just fucking wrong and spouting opinion as usual.

you are worthless in any type of information/debate forum

[army of nobunaga]

lucky? holy shit you kill me/.... we have invaded the border of every personal lawful right of any citizen OF ANY FUCKING COUNTRY.... omg.


"And if we win only by violating our most basic principals, have we really won?"


The answer is : our most basic principles have been fondled for 3 years while we consider the good feeling, we dont consider that our uncle is molesting us.

[Woodruff]

lucky? holy shit you kill me.... we have invaded the border of every personal lawful right of any citizen OF ANY FUCKING COUNTRY.... omg.
"And if we win only by violating our most basic principals, have we really won?"
The answer is : our most basic principles have been fondled for 3 years while we consider the good feeling, we dont consider that our uncle is molesting us.

AON...I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here.

[army of nobunaga]

lucky? holy shit you kill me.... we have invaded the border of every personal lawful right of any citizen OF ANY FUCKING COUNTRY.... omg.
"And if we win only by violating our most basic principals, have we really won?"
The answer is : our most basic principles have been fondled for 3 years while we consider the good feeling, we dont consider that our uncle is molesting us.

AON...I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here.

i guess nothing.. except i am self assured that luck had nothing to do with no terrorist acts in the last 5 years or so

[PLAYER57832]

lucky? holy shit you kill me/.... we have invaded the border of every personal lawful right of any citizen OF ANY FUCKING COUNTRY.... omg.

Give me a break! I grew up in supposedly liberal California, for heaven's sake, listening too all the old hippies talk of more conspiracies than you can even name. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that there are real and true threats out there. But folks like you like to pretend you know so much more than anyone else, you refuse to even listen to anyone else. You know what? That is the definition of a fanatic, not a patriot!

"And if we win only by violating our most basic principals, have we really won?"


The answer is : our most basic principles have been fondled for 3 years while we consider the good feeling, we dont consider that our uncle is molesting us.

That too many people actually believe this is what's really frightening.

The truth is that "our uncle" always has and likely always will "fondle us". The truth is that our government is meant to function in spite of, or often because of, all the idiots who are naturally attracted to power. The subversion is not and never will be from the outside. The REAL threats always have and always will be from the inside. Terrorist watch lists are like telling kids "don't talk to strangers" and thinking that will keep them safe. Meanwhile, the real threat is from your neighbor, or (heaven forbid!) a trusted relative. No, you teach your kids to watch for certain behaviors, not certain kinds of people. That is true in the "big bad" world as well.

AND, if you were really and truly as "privy" to these things as you like to claim, you would know this full well.

I am not suggesting we do away with watch lists, but pretending this is a real significant step in protectins us is foolishness.

[b.k. barunt]

One of our founding fathers - Patrick Henry - gave us what used to be a cherished quote that embodied our love of freedom. "Give me liberty or give me death". We would do well to reclaim this sentiment.

The powers that be want control and they'll do just about anything to get it. The Bush administration used 911 to catapult them into a position of almost absolute power. Pussified American flag wavers cheered them on and allowed the Patriot Act and other outright rapes of our Constitution so that they could feel safe again. f*ck that.

A 5% rate of innocent people wrongfully imprisoned is not acceptable. Freedom is more important than safety. I spent 2 days in jail under the Patriot Act and it won't happen again without bloodshed. I have more to fear from this government than from terrorists.


Honibaz

[PLAYER57832]

I, too wound up in jail, because I (unknowingly) happened to be near where a protest was occuring and an idiot sherrif thought my wearing a shirt with a picture of the earth and the word "home" underneath it was enough to "prove" I was intending harm. Had I not had friends who could bail me out. (more like go get my money to bail me out), I would have sat there. On the positive side, I had the mayor of the town (who I knew from church), my pastor, and a professor vouching for me. Charges were dismissed.

And... if you really think "innocent until proven guilty" really applies, talk to anyone who cannot come up with bail money. And I definitely DO NOT mean people accused of violent crimes with huge bails. I mean people with jobs, kids, etc who if convicted of the charges are likely to get probation. Still, until they get a trial, they can spend up to 2 years in jail (a true estimate) just waiting for a TRIAL. All because they cannot afford to pay a bail bondsman. OR, just don't have ready contact with someone who can go get the money for them (not exactly a career-saving move to make that call to your employer!).

Let me emphasise, these are NOT People proven guilty. They are people who often are actually and truly innocent, but they face the irony of knowing that they can plead guilty and get off for time served or wait things out and see their life even further destroyed.

So, this is not exactly an "esoteric" issue for me, either.

[BigBallinStalin]

I do agree with the bk's sentiments on the Patriot Act and with Player's previously stated issue with police, jail, and bonds, but given that the US has bend some rights, still isn't this a much more effective method in combating terrorism within the United States?

Would you really want the alternative of less security and more bombings with a little bit more freedom?

[PLAYER57832]

I do agree with the bk's sentiments on the Patriot Act and with Player's previously stated issue with police, jail, and bonds, but given that the US has bend some rights, still isn't this a much more effective method in combating terrorism within the United States?

Would you really want the alternative of less security and more bombings with a little bit more freedom?

I don't believe the two are that closely related. The point is that when you have a watch list with so many errors, etc and when there is so little attempt at correction, it gives a completely false sense of security.

Just look at the response in Nigeria. For a while ANYONE, not just folks tied to this guy were not allowed to fly. Problem? The problem is it wasn't U.S. intelligence that caught this guy, it was his own family. However, do you think any NIgerian family will again be so quick to help the U.S. now? THAT is the problem.

[Woodruff]

I do agree with the bk's sentiments on the Patriot Act and with Player's previously stated issue with police, jail, and bonds, but given that the US has bend some rights, still isn't this a much more effective method in combating terrorism within the United States?

Do I believe the Patriot Act is a more effective method in combating terrorism within the United States? Well...I suppose it might be marginally more effective, but no I absolutely do not believe it is significantly more effective enough to find value in its costs.

[Premier2k]

Better to be safe than sorry......

[Woodruff]

Better to be safe than sorry......

It's entirely possible to be sorry for being overly safe (i.e. protected).

[b.k. barunt]

I do agree with the bk's sentiments on the Patriot Act and with Player's previously stated issue with police, jail, and bonds, but given that the US has bend some rights, still isn't this a much more effective method in combating terrorism within the United States?

Would you really want the alternative of less security and more bombings with a little bit more freedom?

Evidently you missed the "give me liberty or give me death" part. Hell if you were alive back then your candy ass would've been a Tory - much safer.

Yer fuckingA right i'd want the alternative. If those wankers can't protect us without compromising the principles that this "democracy" was founded on then let's just deport all the Muslims. You want to abbreviate the Constitution then let's do it that way. It would make a lot more sense.


Honibaz

[army of nobunaga]

lucky? holy shit you kill me/.... we have invaded the border of every personal lawful right of any citizen OF ANY FUCKING COUNTRY.... omg.

Give me a break! I grew up in supposedly liberal California, for heaven's sake, listening too all the old hippies talk of more conspiracies than you can even name. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that there are real and true threats out there. But folks like you like to pretend you know so much more than anyone else, you refuse to even listen to anyone else. You know what? That is the definition of a fanatic, not a patriot!

"And if we win only by violating our most basic principals, have we really won?"


The answer is : our most basic principles have been fondled for 3 years while we consider the good feeling, we dont consider that our uncle is molesting us.

That too many people actually believe this is what's really frightening.

The truth is that "our uncle" always has and likely always will "fondle us". The truth is that our government is meant to function in spite of, or often because of, all the idiots who are naturally attracted to power. The subversion is not and never will be from the outside. The REAL threats always have and always will be from the inside. Terrorist watch lists are like telling kids "don't talk to strangers" and thinking that will keep them safe. Meanwhile, the real threat is from your neighbor, or (heaven forbid!) a trusted relative. No, you teach your kids to watch for certain behaviors, not certain kinds of people. That is true in the "big bad" world as well.

AND, if you were really and truly as "privy" to these things as you like to claim, you would know this full well.

I am not suggesting we do away with watch lists, but pretending this is a real significant step in protectins us is foolishness.

Let me drop a nugget on you. And Ill just say this is all guess work, and I really dont know.. but this is jsut a pretend thing and I cannot get in trouble for just pretend stuff and I am probably just making all this up.

That being said. I believe that about 30% of all cell phone calls in the US go through a word bank filter. Doubt me? Call a buddy 12 times a day for a week, you guys make up a conversation about bombs and fertilizer. Do it and report back for me.
Make jsut ONE call to anyone that is not a US citizen and mention those above words... and please report back to me. These are just theorys, I have no real knowledge here just guessing and am telling noone any real information here.

The patriot act took the gloves off ppl. And im not some liberal gaga mother fucker who sees a conspiracy in every thing. Im a guy that use to have to follow the patriot act to the tee so I wouldnt get in trouble.


and to answer this
" But folks like you like to pretend you know so much more than anyone else, you refuse to even listen to anyone else. You know what? That is the definition of a fanatic, not a patriot!"

I do know more than you. You are an idiot. Not because you are dumb but because you think you know everything. There are posters here that are far more intelligent than me and I learn a lot from their different viewpoints. You are not one of them. The proof? You dont see me posting my opinion in the "Socilizing healthcare" "english politics" threads, and many others, because basically I dont know enough to have a good opinion or contribute, If you have noticed, I stick to National security, mexico, science threads... and that is because I do know about these topics. You on the otherhand have a damn idiotic opinion in practically every thread in the forum..... But folks like me know more than everyone huh? no, jsut know more than you bubba,.

have fun with the thread. I wish I could tell just half the shit that I want to tell. But at some point it would stop being productive but only counter productive if any bad guys read CC forums.

[pimpdave]

Would you really want the alternative of less security and more bombings with a little bit more freedom?

Perhaps you could explain exactly how the Patriot Act prevents people from boarding commercial airliners with box cutters that legislation extant at the time did not.

[army of nobunaga]

Would you really want the alternative of less security and more bombings with a little bit more freedom?

Perhaps you could explain exactly how the Patriot Act prevents people from boarding commercial airliners with box cutters and legislation extant at the time did not.

because the damn gloves are off... sales of certain items at home depot are monitered.
The security screens you go through at the airport have more than xray capability.

The security screens at airports also have on board computers that auto scan everything that a guard looks at visually.

Because the watch list is so inclusive, a fucking iran physics student at University of po dunk cannot take a piss without us knowing if he dribbled on the seat.

[PLAYER57832]

lucky? holy shit you kill me/.... we have invaded the border of every personal lawful right of any citizen OF ANY FUCKING COUNTRY.... omg.

Give me a break! I grew up in supposedly liberal California, for heaven's sake, listening too all the old hippies talk of more conspiracies than you can even name. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that there are real and true threats out there. But folks like you like to pretend you know so much more than anyone else, you refuse to even listen to anyone else. You know what? That is the definition of a fanatic, not a patriot!

"And if we win only by violating our most basic principals, have we really won?"


The answer is : our most basic principles have been fondled for 3 years while we consider the good feeling, we dont consider that our uncle is molesting us.

That too many people actually believe this is what's really frightening.

The truth is that "our uncle" always has and likely always will "fondle us". The truth is that our government is meant to function in spite of, or often because of, all the idiots who are naturally attracted to power. The subversion is not and never will be from the outside. The REAL threats always have and always will be from the inside. Terrorist watch lists are like telling kids "don't talk to strangers" and thinking that will keep them safe. Meanwhile, the real threat is from your neighbor, or (heaven forbid!) a trusted relative. No, you teach your kids to watch for certain behaviors, not certain kinds of people. That is true in the "big bad" world as well.

AND, if you were really and truly as "privy" to these things as you like to claim, you would know this full well.

I am not suggesting we do away with watch lists, but pretending this is a real significant step in protectins us is foolishness.

Let me drop a nugget on you. And Ill just say this is all guess work, and I really dont know.. but this is jsut a pretend thing and I cannot get in trouble for just pretend stuff and I am probably just making all this up.

That being said. I believe that about 30% of all cell phone calls in the US go through a word bank filter. Doubt me? Call a buddy 12 times a day for a week, you guys make up a conversation about bombs and fertilizer. Do it and report back for me.
Make jsut ONE call to anyone that is not a US citizen and mention those above words... and please report back to me. These are just theorys, I have no real knowledge here just guessing and am telling noone any real information here.

The patriot act took the gloves off ppl. And im not some liberal gaga mother fucker who sees a conspiracy in every thing. Im a guy that use to have to follow the patriot act to the tee so I wouldnt get in trouble.

newsflash, there is a reason why cell phones have never undergone the legal scruiteny that your land-lines do. Your internet is not precisely secure, either.

and to answer this
" But folks like you like to pretend you know so much more than anyone else, you refuse to even listen to anyone else. You know what? That is the definition of a fanatic, not a patriot!"

I do know more than you. You are an idiot. Not because you are dumb but because you think you know everything. There are posters here that are far more intelligent than me and I learn a lot from their different viewpoints. You are not one of them. The proof? You dont see me posting my opinion in the "Socilizing healthcare" "english politics" threads, and many others, because basically I dont know enough to have a good opinion or contribute, If you have noticed, I stick to National security, mexico, science threads... and that is because I do know about these topics. You on the otherhand have a damn idiotic opinion in practically every thread in the forum..... But folks like me know more than everyone huh? no, jsut know more than you bubba,.

have fun with the thread. I wish I could tell just half the shit that I want to tell. But at some point it would stop being productive but only counter productive if any bad guys read CC forums.

Here you sit, lecturing me on what you claim I "don't know". Why? Because I have a different opinion from yours.
I would say read your own words. They pretty well apply to your own actions.

[army of nobunaga]

no, I lecture you because you have a condescending opinion on EVERYTHING. I wish i knew as much as you I could reply all day in this forum like you with opinions on everything. But I dont. I know national security, science, mexico .... Thats it. I like movies too I guess.

You said that america has relied on luck to stop terrorism in the last 5 years.. That alone told me you are an idiot. They dont even say that on CNN. Im finished with this thread man... go on and tell us all how the US has been lucky and the patriot act meant nothing, and whatever else since are so knowledgable in the field of national security. Im dying to read it.


adios

[Juan_Bottom]

You said that america has relied on luck to stop terrorism in the last 5 years.. That alone told me you are an idiot. They dont even say that on CNN.

I just wanna ask this here. How come before 9-11 we didn't need all this legislation and control of Americans to stop terrorism (and be successful), and post-911 there are attacks/terrorists coming from (allegedly) everywhere?

newsflash, there is a reason why cell phones have never undergone the legal scruiteny that your land-lines do. Your internet is not precisely secure, either.

So long as a charged battery is in your cell phone, the microphone is able to hear everything you say. The phone does not have to be on,... you're carrying a "bug." I read about that in an Air Force article, and then confirmations started appearing elsewhere. Kinda scary.

Because the watch list is so inclusive, a fucking iran physics student at University of po dunk cannot take a piss without us knowing if he dribbled on the seat.

And a 6 year old has to be the last to board a plane, under the careful watch of the DHS and a sky marshal.

That being said. I believe that about 30% of all cell phone calls in the US go through a word bank filter.

I dunno about a filter, but I do know that the pentagon has huge hard drives where all the conversations go.

[b.k. barunt]

I think that it would be safe to say that the word bank filters are on 100% of the cell phones. Don't know where the "30%" came from but it's ridiculous. If the technology is available then they will use it. News flash for you - the technology's been available for at least 10 years now. Why would they hold it to 30% when they have it all?

Honibaz

[PLAYER57832]

Because the watch list is so inclusive, a fucking iran physics student at University of po dunk cannot take a piss without us knowing if he dribbled on the seat.

And this keeps us safer how, exactly?

Know why the Nigerian bomber wasn't caught in advance, DESPITE the fact that his own family warned the U.S. he was a threat? Because they have so much information to wade through, "little details" like that get missed.

So.. go ahead and cheer because some poor guy who just happens to come from Iran is watched, meanwhile, the next terrorist will be coming from somewhere else entirely. AND, it is highly unlikely it will be someone already on the terrorist watch list.

[army of nobunaga]

yeah asshole.. he blew that plane up... good example. Except it didnt happen... and this is why --- "He was immediately overpowered by passengers and crew aboard Northwest Airlines Flight 253, minutes before it was due to land in Detroit from the Dutch capital Amsterdam."

DONT YOU MAYBE THINK just fucking maybe , I know your imagination is limited.. but just maybe he was a flag and we had air marshals on board watching his ass?

but no... america got lucky..... I know..

except it didnt happen. so try again american security expert. im waiting.

How else was america lucky and how our intel is extremely ineffective. Im on pins and fucking needles.

[PLAYER57832]

Check the facts. It was not an air marshal who apprehended the guy. He was accousted by the people sitting next to him, and they were only able to do so because his bomb failed. AND, the CIA/FBI, etc all very much did ignore warnings by his family because they were buried in the flood of complaints and "information" the agencies get.

Keep on showing us more of your utter brilliance.

[army of nobunaga]

Check the facts. It was not an air marshal who apprehended the guy. He was accousted by the people sitting next to him, and they were only able to do so because his bomb failed. AND, the CIA/FBI, etc all very much did ignore warnings by his family because they were buried in the flood of complaints and "information" the agencies get.

Keep on showing us more of your utter brilliance.

go ahead mass media warrior... expert.

so little you know