sad Days for america

[DirtyDishSoap]

You're missin my point though, I'm talkin about heritage too. I mean really, if you were born into this country (America) with a South American heritage and you have a problem with others displaying colors of the country you were born in but you're fuckin peachy keen wearin your heritage colors whenever, mind you a country 9 times out of 10 that they probably never visted or have lived in, then chances are the'yre fuckin stupid.

[john9blue]

Yeah, I have to agree with Jay here. If my kids went to school with an American flag shirt (they wouldn't, but we're talking hypos here), and they were asked to turn it inside out, the principal and I would have a frank discussion. I would probably say, "Hi, I'm thegreekdog. This is mrs. thegreekdog. Did we mention we're lawyers?"

"AT 09:30 AM on the morning of May 3rd I asked you to do the dishes. As of 05:20 PM they have not been washed!"

"Objection! You cannot verify that such a request was made. Were there any witnesses present?"

"Overruled. Delegation of dishwashing responsibility is your prerogative."

Your arguments must be awesome.

[edwinissweet]

havent read all this. But common sense need to prevail. First off, wearing things with a flag on it is disrespectful. In the US its not a big deal because enough people have complained about it. Latino kids need to stop being so damn sensitive. If you see an American flag at a st patty's day parade no one throws a fit.

These are dumb kids being dumb kids. Thats understandable, but the parents are taking it way too far.. This is whats wrong with america. Everyone thinks THEIR rights are above others. One day people will learn that tolerance is not a sing of weakness, or so i hope.

[Army of GOD]

but the parents are taking it way too far..

Can't agree more.

[thegreekdog]

Yeah, I have to agree with Jay here. If my kids went to school with an American flag shirt (they wouldn't, but we're talking hypos here), and they were asked to turn it inside out, the principal and I would have a frank discussion. I would probably say, "Hi, I'm thegreekdog. This is mrs. thegreekdog. Did we mention we're lawyers?"

You're wife is a lawyer, too?

I guess disagreements in the greekdog household would be more like opening and closing arguments. At least you wouldn't have to deal with an occasional sidebar.

My wife is much better at the "lawyer" thing than I am. Having arguments with her is scary.

[PLAYER57832]

Yeah, I have to agree with Jay here. If my kids went to school with an American flag shirt (they wouldn't, but we're talking hypos here), and they were asked to turn it inside out, the principal and I would have a frank discussion. I would probably say, "Hi, I'm thegreekdog. This is mrs. thegreekdog. Did we mention we're lawyers?"

That was my point. If it was not clear, then ... well, that was the point.

The principal had no right at all to ask the kids to turn their shirts inside out, because the flag is not in any way offensive. The offense if people who think it was wrong to wear the flag on a day supporting Mexican culture.

The only qualification I made is that some schools, to make things easier on themselves in dealing with heavy gang violance and such, may say "no symbols at all". They could still face a challenge, but it is a consistant and understandable policy, whereas this was neither.

[PLAYER57832]

It MAY have been, and it MAY NOT have been (the difference really coming down to the principal's motivation). IF, as I suspect, the principal took the action that he did as a means of student safety, then it isn't about banning the flag.

Woodruff, come on. When the cause of the violance is display of a U.S. flag, then it IS about the flag.
.. and that is the whole point.

So if the cause of violence is because someone wore red shoelaces, you would claim that it was only about red shoelaces? Really?

#1 that is not even an esoteric question. It is the reality. It is why many school districts now have uniforms, because the gang threats and so forth are so serious.

And yet, it is NOT because of the red shoelaces. Correct?

wrong. Red is a the color of the Crips (I think.. I may be out of date, there). The flag, is the symbol of the U.S. BIG difference.

#2. If you want to claim that red shoelaces are equivalent to the U.S. flag, then .. well, I guess the flag code is irrelevant.

Equivalent? You're not even trying any more, are you?

You were the one trying to make the analogy. I say the flag is different and that is the whole point here.

[PLAYER57832]

Yeah, I have to agree with Jay here. If my kids went to school with an American flag shirt (they wouldn't, but we're talking hypos here), and they were asked to turn it inside out, the principal and I would have a frank discussion. I would probably say, "Hi, I'm thegreekdog. This is mrs. thegreekdog. Did we mention we're lawyers?"

You're wife is a lawyer, too?

I guess disagreements in the greekdog household would be more like opening and closing arguments. At least you wouldn't have to deal with an occasional sidebar.

My wife is much better at the "lawyer" thing than I am. Having arguments with her is scary.

I am not sure how much that has to do with being a lawyer, in truth...

[Woodruff]

Woodruff, come on. When the cause of the violance is display of a U.S. flag, then it IS about the flag.
.. and that is the whole point.

So if the cause of violence is because someone wore red shoelaces, you would claim that it was only about red shoelaces? Really?

#1 that is not even an esoteric question. It is the reality. It is why many school districts now have uniforms, because the gang threats and so forth are so serious.

And yet, it is NOT because of the red shoelaces. Correct?

wrong. Red is a the color of the Crips (I think.. I may be out of date, there). The flag, is the symbol of the U.S. BIG difference.

You just made my point for me. Thank you.

#2. If you want to claim that red shoelaces are equivalent to the U.S. flag, then .. well, I guess the flag code is irrelevant.

Equivalent? You're not even trying any more, are you?

You were the one trying to make the analogy. I say the flag is different and that is the whole point here.

You said it had to be about the flag. My analogy shows quite clearly that's not necessarily true. And in what world does "analogy" mean "equivalence"?

[PLAYER57832]

havent read all this. But common sense need to prevail. First off, wearing things with a flag on it is disrespectful.

This is debateable, a point of contention in the U.S. right now. However, it was not in any way part of the issue here.

In the US its not a big deal because enough people have complained about it. Latino kids need to stop being so damn sensitive. If you see an American flag at a st patty's day parade no one throws a fit.

THAT is the point. Except in this case, the kids wearing the flags were told to turn their t-shirts inside out or to go home, so the latino kids would not be offended or start violence. THAT is an unacceptable response! The ones who should have been sent home were the complainers. This is the U.S. anyone offended by the flag... too bad! Don't like it, leave!

These are dumb kids being dumb kids. Thats understandable, but the parents are taking it way too far.. This is whats wrong with america. Everyone thinks THEIR rights are above others. One day people will learn that tolerance is not a sing of weakness, or so i hope.

This is not about tolerance, just the opposite. It is about the idea that we are supposed to be tolerant of everyone, but hispanic americans are somehow "special". They cannot learn english, like every other culture here has. They not only want their cultures transferred, which is fine, but they want to deny any association with the U.S. That is not fine!

If you want to celebrate Mexian culture.. FINE! Celebrate Cinco De Mayo, Celebrate Chinese New Year, celebrate all sorts of days. But, DO NOT ELIMINATE THE US from those celebrations.

I myself grew up in ethnic communities, where we celebrated our heritages proudly. But, you know what? We ALSO ALWAYS DISPLAYED THE U.S. FLAG! This was even true in Santa Barbara for Cinco De Mayo. In fact, it was considered wrong to display any foreign flag without the U.S. flag also being flown! It was a matter of respect for BOTH cultures.

Unfortunately, there is a generation of hispanics that has not been brought up that way. I am not saying the entire community thinks like that. One of the boys in question here, was, in fact part Mexican. However, it is a far too prevalent attitude now in California. Enough is enough! Your right to celebrate your culture ends when you tell me that I cannot display my own countries flag on a t-shirt or anything else without causing you offense.

If you are offended by the U.S. flag, then too bad! YOU need to leave, not force me to take my flag down!

And while this certainly started with kids being kids, it is most definitely about much more. And, sometimes kids can get it right, even if they are a bit dumb most of the time.

[PLAYER57832]

So if the cause of violence is because someone wore red shoelaces, you would claim that it was only about red shoelaces? Really?

#1 that is not even an esoteric question. It is the reality. It is why many school districts now have uniforms, because the gang threats and so forth are so serious.

And yet, it is NOT because of the red shoelaces. Correct?

wrong. Red is a the color of the Crips (I think.. I may be out of date, there). The flag, is the symbol of the U.S. BIG difference.

You just made my point for me. Thank you.

If this is your feeling, then how on earth can you justify agreeing with that vice principal.

[PLAYER57832]

Woodruff, in honesty, I think part of the issue here is that you have not lived in California and just are not aware of how much hispanic culture has come to not just prevail but actually usurp other cultures, ALL other cultures and how prevalent this attitude is that we are supposed to learn Spanish and adopt their customs or we are wrong.

I want my kids to learn Spanish. They don't have much opportunity, here in PA. I want them to learn any language, frankly. However, I don't want them told that they HAVE to learn Spanish if they want a decent-paying job in our own country. THAT is just wrong, but it is the reality in parts of California.

[PLAYER57832]

You were the one trying to make the analogy. I say the flag is different and that is the whole point here.

You said it had to be about the flag. My analogy shows quite clearly that's not necessarily true. And in what world does "analogy" mean "equivalence"?

You made an analogy between red tennis shoes and the flag, as if they were equal.

And, when you argue semantics instead of the point, it usually means you have not much of a point.

[Woodruff]

#1 that is not even an esoteric question. It is the reality. It is why many school districts now have uniforms, because the gang threats and so forth are so serious.

And yet, it is NOT because of the red shoelaces. Correct?

wrong. Red is a the color of the Crips (I think.. I may be out of date, there). The flag, is the symbol of the U.S. BIG difference.

You just made my point for me. Thank you.

If this is your feeling, then how on earth can you justify agreeing with that vice principal.

It seems patently obvious to me that you and I are speaking different languages. We're clearly not communicating, that much is obvious.

[Woodruff]

You were the one trying to make the analogy. I say the flag is different and that is the whole point here.

You said it had to be about the flag. My analogy shows quite clearly that's not necessarily true. And in what world does "analogy" mean "equivalence"?

You made an analogy between red tennis shoes and the flag, as if they were equal.

Where in that analogy did I make any distinction about them being equal? The idea behind an analogy is SIMILARITIES, not EQUALITIES.

And, when you argue semantics instead of the point, it usually means you have not much of a point.

And when you make up things out of thin air about my point that are not based on what I have said, it usually means you have not much of a point.

[edwinissweet]

If you are offended by the U.S. flag, then too bad! YOU need to leave, not force me to take my flag down!

Thats kind of what i was talking about by intolenrance.. You dont have to win EVERY fight. Some times its better to roll your eyes and laugh at ignorance. I agree, those kids are being brought up badly, but so are alot of other kids, not just latinos.

In my humble point of view, you help yourself so you can help someone else. Most kids are either raised to help someone else so they can help you, or the good ole, help yourself and forget about others.

And while this certainly started with kids being kids, it is most definitely about much more. And, sometimes kids can get it right, even if they are a bit dumb most of the time.

OK, i was in high school last year. I know kids. They are predictable. Its as if i can hear them right now..
The mexican kids think its cool to show their pride for mexico. They are in the middle of their american dream, no one can touch their ego
Now im not saying the other kids are racist, but they are dumb too. How many times in high school did you see someone say something stupid and ofensive to get a few laughs and nods from their friends? Never? well things have changed since you went to school then.

This is another case of "lets defend our right to be obnoxious" On both sides.

[PLAYER57832]

If you are offended by the U.S. flag, then too bad! YOU need to leave, not force me to take my flag down!

Thats kind of what i was talking about by intolenrance.. You dont have to win EVERY fight. Some times its better to roll your eyes and laugh at ignorance. I agree, those kids are being brought up badly, but so are alot of other kids, not just latinos.

Look, there are a couple of issues about which most people do not feel they have to ameliorate. You don't step on my religion and you don't step on my country, in that country.

If someone from Germany wants to make comments about the U.S., sure, I will probably walk away, particularly if I am in Germany at the time. Even if I am not, I accept that people from other countries can come here and voice their views. BUT, for a group of high school kids, who's education is being paid for by U.S. taxpayers to say that showing the U.S. flag is "insulting their heritage" means some educators have definitely not done their job. They have a right to talk about the flag, etc. BUT, they do not have the right to expect someone to refrain from displaying it or wearing it becuase they got an overdose of what they believe to be "their" culture. Ironically enough, at least half those kids were likely born here.

For them to claim insult from the flag it is disrespectful to everyone who has fought for this country -- everyone of many cultures.

[edwinissweet]

Yes those kids are wrong. Thats what ive seen saying lol. But the other kids are not wanting to show their pride.. they want to be as annoying as the mexican kids. People that say, "well you cant be sure about that", just want to blow it out of proportion. Its not the educator's job to teach tolerance and common sense to kids. They teach you critical thinking, but without common sense, then you'll end up a confused individual if you attempt to critical think.

If the latino kids decided to walk into school tomorrow with thongs featuring the american flag, they would be in their right to do so.. There would be another media outrage.. and more people getting upset over a case of kids trying to out-douche each other.

These parents failed to show their kids basic respect. BOTH SIDES. Neither side is ever going to admit it.

[Falkomagno]

If you are offended by the U.S. flag, then too bad! YOU need to leave, not force me to take my flag down!

Thats kind of what i was talking about by intolenrance.. You dont have to win EVERY fight. Some times its better to roll your eyes and laugh at ignorance. I agree, those kids are being brought up badly, but so are alot of other kids, not just latinos.

In my humble point of view, you help yourself so you can help someone else. Most kids are either raised to help someone else so they can help you, or the good ole, help yourself and forget about others.

And while this certainly started with kids being kids, it is most definitely about much more. And, sometimes kids can get it right, even if they are a bit dumb most of the time.

OK, i was in high school last year. I know kids. They are predictable. Its as if i can hear them right now..
The mexican kids think its cool to show their pride for mexico. They are in the middle of their american dream, no one can touch their ego
Now im not saying the other kids are racist, but they are dumb too. How many times in high school did you see someone say something stupid and ofensive to get a few laughs and nods from their friends? Never? well things have changed since you went to school then.

This is another case of "lets defend our right to be obnoxious" On both sides.

This guy knows what happened.


A swollen patriotism, three punks who thinks that are too funny, a bunch of angry parents and a couple of news network with his own interest ...it’s a nonsense...there is not a epistemological or ontological debate about if the flag should be banned or about all "the blood that spilled the founding fathers"...is not.

It's just a lame excuse to divide, to raise animosity to foreign people in usa, supported by ignorant who the next Cinco de Mayo are willing to do THAT stupid move, and to spread more ignorance, always covered with the Patriotism charade. Don't be fooled. Don't be part of that malicious game

[silvanricky]

Ok, so now we've got another case of where a teacher abuses the authority of their position against students who want to express their patriotism for American.

http://www.kcba.com/Global/story.asp?S=12461078

And people wonder why we get so pissed off at public schools. I went through crap like this in high school. Public schools are becoming more and more like indoctrination camps than places to actually learn.

[PLAYER57832]

Yes those kids are wrong. Thats what ive seen saying lol. But the other kids are not wanting to show their pride.. they want to be as annoying as the mexican kids. People that say, "well you cant be sure about that", just want to blow it out of proportion. Its not the educator's job to teach tolerance and common sense to kids. They teach you critical thinking, but without common sense, then you'll end up a confused individual if you attempt to critical think.

Tolerance AND critical thinking, common sense are ALL the job of educators. Not the sole job, but they do belong in education.

And, you are missing a pretty big picture here. In CA, everything except hispanic culture is being pushed out of many places. So, when that principal took the side of some students who thought a U.S. flag was offensive to a day celebrating hispanic culture, it's an issue.

Yes, these are kids. But, like I said before. Sometimes kids stumble onto real issues. That this was brought to the for by some arrogant teens is not reason to dismiss this very real issue.

[edwinissweet]

Tolerance AND critical thinking, common sense are ALL the job of educators. Not the sole job, but they do belong in education.

woah.. i wonder what parents are suppossed to do in your book then

We are never gunna reach an agreement. Im just glad my parents didnt share your parenting ideas.

[Woodruff]

Ok, so now we've got another case of where a teacher abuses the authority of their position against students who want to express their patriotism for American.
http://www.kcba.com/Global/story.asp?S=12461078
And people wonder why we get so pissed off at public schools. I went through crap like this in high school. Public schools are becoming more and more like indoctrination camps than places to actually learn.

This isn't even indoctrination so much as...just plain weird. The teacher states that the picture is offensive, but won't say why? I really don't get it.

[Woodruff]

Tolerance AND critical thinking, common sense are ALL the job of educators. Not the sole job, but they do belong in education.

woah.. i wonder what parents are suppossed to do in your book then

Those are also responsibilities of parents, in addition to many other things. However, I'm curious as to why you don't believe that teachers shouldn't ALSO be teaching tolerance, critical thinking and common sense?

[edwinissweet]

Tolerance AND critical thinking, common sense are ALL the job of educators. Not the sole job, but they do belong in education.

woah.. i wonder what parents are suppossed to do in your book then

Those are also responsibilities of parents, in addition to many other things. However, I'm curious as to why you don't believe that teachers shouldn't ALSO be teaching tolerance, critical thinking and common sense?

I dont believe that teachers shouldnt. But a parents role should be bigger than complaining when they dont agree with the teacher.