Israel's International Crisis (escalation #1)

[Snorri1234]

Perhaps the American Japanese were simultaneously being protected. That is not a main point, just a small reality.

They could've handled it better though.

[Phatscotty]

This Jewish kid has balls of steel!

Jewish kid walks through a group of Muslims in L.A.

wow. thanks

[icedagger]

Apparantly the legality of intercepting the ships in neutral waters is more debatable than it seems on the surface:

The San Remo memorandum states, specifically 67A, that if you have a boat that is charging a blockaded area you are allowed to intercept even prior to it reaching the blockaded area if you've warned them in advance, and that we did a number of times, and they had a stated goal which they openly expressed, of breaking the blockade. That blockade is in place to protect our people.

wiki

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2915343.htm

It's a good article and I wasn't aware of the clause he talks about:

102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if: [...]

(b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.

If the blockade itself is legal, the israelis were within their rights to intercept and even attack the ships. So the legality of the whole operation boils down to whether the damage to gazans caused by the blockade is excessive in relation to increased israeli security. I don't know how you'd go about judging that

[Phatscotty]

5-29

The departure of a flotilla of aid ships to the Gaza Strip in the occupied Palestinian territories has been delayed.

The ships remained near Cyprus, in the Mediterranean Sea, on Saturday after Israel threatened using force to prevent them reaching Gaza.

Hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists are on board the flotilla which aims to reach Gaza in defiance of an Israeli embargo on the territory.

A group of 25 European MPs are to join the flotilla, but some reports said that Cypriot authorities were preventing the politicians from leaving land to join the ships further out to sea.

A decision on exactly when a departure might take place was to be taken later on Saturday, Audrey Bomse of the Free Gaza Movement (FGM) told the AFP news agency.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middl ... 90862.html

also, awaiting confirmation, but escalation #2 may be on the horizon, as rumors persist that 2 more boats are going to attempt to run the same blockade later this week.

[Snorri1234]

If the blockade itself is legal, the israelis were within their rights to intercept and even attack the ships.

Not even, because that whole thingie has less legality (or something) than the international law with regards to boats on waters. But yes, if the blockade was in any way legal Israel had at least some right to do what they did.

Even then, it's up for debate whether they took the right action. Don't forget they attacked at night with commandos and killed people. If it was a legal blockade I'd hold of with judgement till all communications from all sides are given free and we can determine with certainty what lead to the attack and what happened during the attack.

Still, Israel confiscated all media from the boats and has only put out their versions of what happened. I don't think it's unreasonable to frown upon them as the bad guys for now.

So the legality of the whole operation boils down to whether the damage to gazans caused by the blockade is excessive in relation to increased israeli security. I don't know how you'd go about judging that

well...you gotta look at whether the blockade is a collective punishment or just targets the insurgents. Look at the list of things that are banned from importing, look at the way palestinians live and look at what the insurgents are capable of doing. Whether it's collective punishment (illegal under the law) is not really that hard to determine.

[Phatscotty]

Point of order!

The blockade is a joint blockade, manned by Israel and Egypt

[icedagger]

Until there's an impartial investigation the question of whether the troops on the ship used excessive force is just speculation. You can point to the tragic deaths, I can point to the footage of seemingly unresisting israeli troops being subjected to potentially life-threatening violence. We're unlikely to get anywhere.

The only thing linking the list of items which can't be taken to gaza is that they could all potentially be used to facilitate attacks on israel. I don't disptue living conditions in gaza are bad, but I honestly don't think the Israeli government is motivated by a desire to punish the inhabitants. Forcing Hamas out (whether it's an effective strategy to achieve this is another matter) and maintaining security are surely the more obvious reasons.

[PLAYER57832]

Per the legality issue, here is a link to hear the opinion of an actual expert in oceanic law:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =127373370
(summary:
When Israelis boarded the aid flotilla in international waters, were they violating international law? To discuss that issue, Robert Siegel talks to Myron Nordquist, professor of international law and associate director of the Center for Oceans Law and Policy at the University of Virginia )



He brought up a couple of points that I have not read in any of the above posts. Essentially, he says that both opinions are correct and both are wrong. However, why he says that differ from the points mentioned already.

[2dimes]

This Jewish kid has balls of steel!

Jewish kid walks through a group of Muslims in L.A.

wow. thanks

I watch the news. I'm an informed person.

That was pretty awesome right there.

[silvanricky]

This Jewish kid has balls of steel!

Jewish kid walks through a group of Muslims in L.A.

wow. thanks

I watch the news. I'm an informed person.

That was pretty awesome right there.

My favorite part of that was when the idiot at the end of the video says "the only reason Israel is doing this is because they got kicked out by the German whatever". Like 6 million + Jewish people being murdered and tortured during the Holocaust was just a "whatever" moment in history. I'm so sure that Jewish people want to take out their frustrations from the Holocaust on other people just to get it out of their system.

[PLAYER57832]

So the legality of the whole operation boils down to whether the damage to gazans caused by the blockade is excessive in relation to increased israeli security. I don't know how you'd go about judging that

well...you gotta look at whether the blockade is a collective punishment or just targets the insurgents. Look at the list of things that are banned from importing, look at the way palestinians live and look at what the insurgents are capable of doing. Whether it's collective punishment (illegal under the law) is not really that hard to determine.

One issue I have seen mentioned mostly in more "liberal" news sources: Normally, citizens are allowed to flee. In this case, they are not.

Even if that is not true, I do know that Palestiniens who leave, for example to go to College in the US, are almost never legally allowed back into the territories. So, people may be even more reluctant to leave than otherwise, because they have no hope of returning once the "war" is over.

[jaimito101]

though a little partizan this is an interesting speech from netayahu.

http://www.youtube.com/user/OmniChristi ... UG12kU8-jE

Israel is so hated in the middle east they are constantly under fire/threat. to protect themselves they have to take preventive measures. the only shame is they let it come this far through their past behaviour and it seems there is no way back.

[PLAYER57832]

Israel is so hated in the middle east they are constantly under fire/threat. to protect themselves they have to take preventive measures. the only shame is they let it come this far through their past behaviour and it seems there is no way back.

And they all conveniently forget why they are disliked.

Couldn't have anything to do with people insisting God told them they have the right to land where other people have lived for hundreds of years? I wonder how you would feel if the Native Americans decided to act similarly and take your land back?

Now, Israel is not going to go away. It is here, and for all the harm it has caused, it has also done good things. However, this myopic view that Israel is this sanctified nation and the Palestiniens are just dirty terrorists is a big part of why this issue has escalated so far, instead of being resolved years ago.

[2dimes]

Couldn't have anything to do with people insisting God told them they have the right to land where other people have lived for hundreds of years? I wonder how you would feel if the Native Americans decided to act similarly and take your land back?

Pfffft, imaginary fairy tale sky daddy tells them to occupy a certain place? Puh-leeeze. We should all lend a hand to annialate them and prove once and for all they're full of balogna!! Huh, huh?

And they all conveniently forget why they are disliked.

I forgot too. Because they killed Jesus?


P.S. Oka.

[InkL0sed]

Israel is so hated in the middle east they are constantly under fire/threat. to protect themselves they have to take preventive measures. the only shame is they let it come this far through their past behaviour and it seems there is no way back.

And they all conveniently forget why they are disliked.

Couldn't have anything to do with people insisting God told them they have the right to land where other people have lived for hundreds of years? I wonder how you would feel if the Native Americans decided to act similarly and take your land back?

Now, Israel is not going to go away. It is here, and for all the harm it has caused, it has also done good things. However, this myopic view that Israel is this sanctified nation and the Palestiniens are just dirty terrorists is a big part of why this issue has escalated so far, instead of being resolved years ago.

False analogy. First of all, originally they were going to share the land with the Palestinians - but the Palestinians were angry anyway, so they declared war. Secondly, "America f*ck yeah"-ism aside, if there were about as many Native Americans as the rest of us in this country, it would seem much more just to let them have their own nation. And if we then attacked them, they'd have the right to defend themselves.

[2dimes]

So... there's too many Palistinians and someone needs to send small pox infected blankets?

[InkL0sed]

That doesn't really follow

[2dimes]

Your post looks a little like, "There's not enough Natives to put up a fight, so screw 'em."

It made me wonder if the solution to the current Gaza problem would be to decrease arab numbers?

[InkL0sed]

Your post looks a little like, "There's not enough Natives to put up a fight, so screw 'em."

It made me wonder if the solution to the current Gaza problem would be to decrease arab numbers?

I was talking about just, not whether they can put up a fight. I don't think there are enough Native Americans to justify having half the country.

[2dimes]

I was talking about just, not whether they can put up a fight. I don't think there are enough Native Americans to justify having half the country.

There's probably a lot more of them than when they had all of it.
I'll move along now, this is for sure a, "Once the toothpaste is out of the tube it's a bitch getting it back in."

[thegreekdog]

I forgot too. Because they killed Jesus?

Speaking of this (it's neither here nor there and my intent is not to derail the thread, but)...

Why do some Christians hate Jews (or allegedly hate Jews) because the Jews killed Jesus? Didn't the death of Jesus work out in the end for Christians? Wasn't that the point: i.e. to kill him so he could rise from the dead? Shouldn't we be thankful to the, what, 50 Jews, that were there for his crucifixition?

Historical hatred for Jews has more to do with their ability to lend money (and thus charge interest) when the Christians couldn't do it. There is similar hatred for banks in 2010, I might add.

[Snorri1234]

Israel is so hated in the middle east they are constantly under fire/threat. to protect themselves they have to take preventive measures. the only shame is they let it come this far through their past behaviour and it seems there is no way back.

And they all conveniently forget why they are disliked.

Couldn't have anything to do with people insisting God told them they have the right to land where other people have lived for hundreds of years? I wonder how you would feel if the Native Americans decided to act similarly and take your land back?

Now, Israel is not going to go away. It is here, and for all the harm it has caused, it has also done good things. However, this myopic view that Israel is this sanctified nation and the Palestiniens are just dirty terrorists is a big part of why this issue has escalated so far, instead of being resolved years ago.

False analogy. First of all, originally they were going to share the land with the Palestinians - but the Palestinians were angry anyway, so they declared war. Secondly, "America f*ck yeah"-ism aside, if there were about as many Native Americans as the rest of us in this country, it would seem much more just to let them have their own nation. And if we then attacked them, they'd have the right to defend themselves.

So you support the Palestinians attacking Israel?

[InkL0sed]

Israel is so hated in the middle east they are constantly under fire/threat. to protect themselves they have to take preventive measures. the only shame is they let it come this far through their past behaviour and it seems there is no way back.

And they all conveniently forget why they are disliked.

Couldn't have anything to do with people insisting God told them they have the right to land where other people have lived for hundreds of years? I wonder how you would feel if the Native Americans decided to act similarly and take your land back?

Now, Israel is not going to go away. It is here, and for all the harm it has caused, it has also done good things. However, this myopic view that Israel is this sanctified nation and the Palestiniens are just dirty terrorists is a big part of why this issue has escalated so far, instead of being resolved years ago.

False analogy. First of all, originally they were going to share the land with the Palestinians - but the Palestinians were angry anyway, so they declared war. Secondly, "America f*ck yeah"-ism aside, if there were about as many Native Americans as the rest of us in this country, it would seem much more just to let them have their own nation. And if we then attacked them, they'd have the right to defend themselves.

So you support the Palestinians attacking Israel?

Hi, I'm Snorri, I'm a little slow.

No, the Native Americans were the Israelis in her analogy.

And I don't "support" anything of the sort. Stop reading things that aren't there, it doesn't make you clever

[2dimes]

Why do some Christians hate Jews (or allegedly hate Jews) because the Jews killed Jesus? Didn't the death of Jesus work out in the end for Christians? Wasn't that the point: i.e. to kill him so he could rise from the dead? Shouldn't we be thankful to the, what, 50 Jews, that were there for his crucifixition?

Historical hatred for Jews has more to do with their ability to lend money (and thus charge interest) when the Christians couldn't do it. There is similar hatred for banks in 2010, I might add.

I can't figure it out either. Another thing that seems to be over looked is. Jesus was a Jew.

People are funny, we think and do strange things.

Everybody's funny, now you funny too.

[InkL0sed]

I thought this was so true about the situation:

I have no problem with Turkey or humanitarian groups loudly criticizing Israel. But I have a big problem when people get so agitated by Israel’s actions in Gaza but are unmoved by Syria’s involvement in the murder of the prime minister of Lebanon, by the Iranian regime’s killing of its own citizens demonstrating for the right to have their votes counted, by Muslim suicide bombers murdering nearly 100 Ahmadi Muslims in mosques in Pakistan on Friday and by pro-Hamas gunmen destroying a U.N.-sponsored summer camp in Gaza because it wouldn’t force Islamic fundamentalism down the throats of children.

That concern for Gaza and Israel’s blockade is so out of balance with these other horrific cases in the region that it is not surprising Israelis dismiss it as motivated by hatred — not the advice of friends.