Israel's International Crisis (escalation #1)

[pimpdave]

The Palestinians Are Not The Same Thing As The Rebel Alliance

[darvlay]

Why do some Christians hate Jews (or allegedly hate Jews) because the Jews killed Jesus? Didn't the death of Jesus work out in the end for Christians? Wasn't that the point: i.e. to kill him so he could rise from the dead? Shouldn't we be thankful to the, what, 50 Jews, that were there for his crucifixition?

Historical hatred for Jews has more to do with their ability to lend money (and thus charge interest) when the Christians couldn't do it. There is similar hatred for banks in 2010, I might add.

Not every Christian sect believes in predestination or its many derviatives. Some sects of Christianity (and most sects in Judaism for that matter) believe in free will. Reconciling free will with omniscience is not easy.

Historical hatred for the Jews has nothing to do with lending money either, dude. That's some fucking lazy thinking.

[pimpdave]

Historical hatred for Jews has more to do with their ability to lend money (and thus charge interest) when the Christians couldn't do it. There is similar hatred for banks in 2010, I might add.

There's a lot more to it than that. No one is innocent, not truly. There have been some huge dickhead Jews in the past. That's no reason to exterminate them, or hate them, or demand they use the service entrance when invited over to your house for a party.

But look up finger crossing. Interesting little bit of culture for you. When I was working out a deal a number of years ago with a Hasidic Jewish real estate group, I asked that they keep their hands above the table during negotiations. One of them gave me a smirk, so I just winked at him.

Know your opponent.

[thegreekdog]

Why do some Christians hate Jews (or allegedly hate Jews) because the Jews killed Jesus? Didn't the death of Jesus work out in the end for Christians? Wasn't that the point: i.e. to kill him so he could rise from the dead? Shouldn't we be thankful to the, what, 50 Jews, that were there for his crucifixition?

Historical hatred for Jews has more to do with their ability to lend money (and thus charge interest) when the Christians couldn't do it. There is similar hatred for banks in 2010, I might add.

I can't figure it out either. Another thing that seems to be over looked is. Jesus was a Jew.

People are funny, we think and do strange things.

Not every Christian sect believes in predestination or its many derviatives. Some sects of Christianity (and most sects in Judaism for that matter) believe in free will. Reconciling free will with omniscience is not easy.

Historical hatred for the Jews has nothing to do with lending money either, dude. That's some fucking lazy thinking.

I'm not talking about free will... I'm talking about end result. End result = good.

I'm a lazy thinker and there are other reasons. Oh, and you're wrong... it's called usury... so the "nothing to do with lending money" stuff you typed above is wrong. That's some fucking lazy thinking.

[thegreekdog]

Historical hatred for Jews has more to do with their ability to lend money (and thus charge interest) when the Christians couldn't do it. There is similar hatred for banks in 2010, I might add.

There's a lot more to it than that. No one is innocent, not truly. There have been some huge dickhead Jews in the past. That's no reason to exterminate them, or hate them, or demand they use the service entrance when invited over to your house for a party.

But look up finger crossing. Interesting little bit of culture for you. When I was working out a deal a number of years ago with a Hasidic Jewish real estate group, I asked that they keep their hands above the table during negotiations. One of them gave me a smirk, so I just winked at him.

Know your opponent.

What in my post made you think I wanted to hate or exterminate Jews? There is no reason to hate any group, so I'm not trying to give a justification; I'm trying to indicate one of some reasons others have used to hate Jews.

Also - did Player hack your account? That's a very offbase post.

[darvlay]

Why do some Christians hate Jews (or allegedly hate Jews) because the Jews killed Jesus? Didn't the death of Jesus work out in the end for Christians? Wasn't that the point: i.e. to kill him so he could rise from the dead? Shouldn't we be thankful to the, what, 50 Jews, that were there for his crucifixition?

Historical hatred for Jews has more to do with their ability to lend money (and thus charge interest) when the Christians couldn't do it. There is similar hatred for banks in 2010, I might add.

I can't figure it out either. Another thing that seems to be over looked is. Jesus was a Jew.

People are funny, we think and do strange things.

Not every Christian sect believes in predestination or its many derviatives. Some sects of Christianity (and most sects in Judaism for that matter) believe in free will. Reconciling free will with omniscience is not easy.

Historical hatred for the Jews has nothing to do with lending money either, dude. That's some fucking lazy thinking.

I'm not talking about free will... I'm talking about end result. End result = good.

I'm a lazy thinker and there are other reasons. Oh, and you're wrong... it's called usury... so the "nothing to do with lending money" stuff you typed above is wrong. That's some fucking lazy thinking.

I know what usury is, thanks.

[thegreekdog]

I know what usury is, thanks.

Excellent.

[2dimes]

Can we all agree that no one wants to see a huge boat coming to your country with one of these on it.

[darvlay]

Not funny, dude. You almost made me piss my pants from fear.

[Snorri1234]

Hi, I'm Snorri, I'm a little slow.

No, the Native Americans were the Israelis in her analogy.

And I don't "support" anything of the sort. Stop reading things that aren't there, it doesn't make you clever

I know what her analogy was. I'm just saying that the same line of reasoning could very well be used to justify palestenian defense.

Analogies are stupid for such a complicated mess that the Israel/Palestine conflict is. If you claim that Israel's actions are self-defense and the actions of palestinians aren't then you're not subscribing to an objective definition of self defense but base it purely on which side you like more.

[pimpdave]

What in my post made you think I wanted to hate or exterminate Jews? There is no reason to hate any group, so I'm not trying to give a justification; I'm trying to indicate one of some reasons others have used to hate Jews.

Also - did Player hack your account? That's a very offbase post.

What in my post made you think I think you want to exterminate Jews? A guilty conscience?

There's nothing offbase in my post, you're just stupid. There are more cultural differences than just the usury thing.

[2dimes]

Snorri, when you said, "Analogies are stupid for such a complicated mess " you don't mean weak or ambiguous ones did you?

They've all but wiped out the Tasmanian Tiger. As far as we know it's extinct! Burp.

[thegreekdog]

What in my post made you think I wanted to hate or exterminate Jews? There is no reason to hate any group, so I'm not trying to give a justification; I'm trying to indicate one of some reasons others have used to hate Jews.

Also - did Player hack your account? That's a very offbase post.

What in my post made you think I think you want to exterminate Jews? A guilty conscience?

There's nothing offbase in my post, you're just stupid. There are more cultural differences than just the usury thing.

Maybe I am - stupid (not the exterminate Jews part).

[icedagger]

Jesus what happened to this thread

[thegreekdog]

Jesus what happened to this thread

I derailed it... I've given myself a warning.

Consider this thread de-derailed!

[Snorri1234]

Snorri, when you said, "Analogies are stupid for such a complicated mess " you don't mean weak or ambiguous ones did you?

They've all but wiped out the Tasmanian Tiger. As far as we know it's extinct! Burp.

Well it's more that for analogies to work for the whole thing they quickly develop into "but what if this situation was exactly like Israel?"

[Phatscotty]

Snorri, when you said, "Analogies are stupid for such a complicated mess " you don't mean weak or ambiguous ones did you?

They've all but wiped out the Tasmanian Tiger. As far as we know it's extinct! Burp.

Is that the same as the thylacine?

[Phatscotty]

The thread is not derailed, it just has Player and Snorri participating in it...

[2dimes]

Snorri, when you said, "Analogies are stupid for such a complicated mess " you don't mean weak or ambiguous ones did you?

Well it's more that for analogies to work for the whole thing they quickly develop into "but what if this situation was exactly like Israel?"

Hmmm, maybe she was going for.

Palistinian dude was just relaxing in 1948, Jews show up looking to make the place back into Isreal, sent him packing, that sucks the hooka.
How would you like it if someone came and knocked down your house to build a casino?

[GabonX]

Snorri, when you said, "Analogies are stupid for such a complicated mess " you don't mean weak or ambiguous ones did you?

Well it's more that for analogies to work for the whole thing they quickly develop into "but what if this situation was exactly like Israel?"

Hmmm, maybe she was going for.

Palistinian dude was just relaxing in 1948, Jews show up looking to make the place back into Isreal, sent him packing, that sucks the hooka.
How would you like it if someone came and knocked down your house to build a casino?

Yes, because the hostilities began in 1948

[jay_a2j]

The thread is not derailed, it just has Player and Snorri participating in it...

[Snorri1234]

Watched Netanyahu's speech. Addressing the double standard against Israel. "Israel has the right to defend itself but when it does they are condemned."


Surrounded by hostile nations, Israel is in it's rights to defend herself and take any measures necessary to protect her people. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an anti-Semite! Including "Christians" who side with Hammas, Hezbollah, Iran etc.


Long live Israel!!!!!!

Playing the race-card, eh?

[PLAYER57832]

Why do some Christians hate Jews (or allegedly hate Jews) because the Jews killed Jesus? Didn't the death of Jesus work out in the end for Christians? Wasn't that the point: i.e. to kill him so he could rise from the dead? Shouldn't we be thankful to the, what, 50 Jews, that were there for his crucifixition?

Historical hatred for Jews has more to do with their ability to lend money (and thus charge interest) when the Christians couldn't do it. There is similar hatred for banks in 2010, I might add.

I can't figure it out either. Another thing that seems to be over looked is. Jesus was a Jew.

People are funny, we think and do strange things.

Historically, one reason actually had to do with trade. Since the Jews were one of the few groups to have contacts all over, in the mideast, all over Europe, etc, they began early banking. It was a big help, part of why commerce could continue, etc. Anyway, at some point the powers that be in various areas decided they wanted the power of keeping the money. (a very sketchy tale.. missing a lot of details, of course), and it became convenient to consider Jews "evil"... pretty typical.

At any rate, that history has little or nothing to do with the conflict with Palestine. Or, actually it does. Because, the "dirty secret" behind the establishment of Israel is that it provided an all too convenient solution for what to so with all those Jews. Remember, Jews could not join whole lists of clubs, organizations. They could not buy property in some areas. The Holocaust made people guilty, but not quite enough to want to open their doors to Jews, at least not more than a few "tokens".

Palestine? Just a bunch of Arabs... people who "live in tents". Most people, those that even thought about it, would have considered it nothing but a bunch of sand dunes and camels. A few were more intelligent, more knowledgeable, but the "solution" was just "too convenient"

Israel is so hated in the middle east they are constantly under fire/threat. to protect themselves they have to take preventive measures. the only shame is they let it come this far through their past behaviour and it seems there is no way back.

And they all conveniently forget why they are disliked.

Couldn't have anything to do with people insisting God told them they have the right to land where other people have lived for hundreds of years? I wonder how you would feel if the Native Americans decided to act similarly and take your land back?

Now, Israel is not going to go away. It is here, and for all the harm it has caused, it has also done good things. However, this myopic view that Israel is this sanctified nation and the Palestiniens are just dirty terrorists is a big part of why this issue has escalated so far, instead of being resolved years ago.

False analogy. First of all, originally they were going to share the land with the Palestinians - but the Palestinians were angry anyway, so they declared war. Secondly, "America f*ck yeah"-ism aside, if there were about as many Native Americans as the rest of us in this country, it would seem much more just to let them have their own nation. And if we then attacked them, they'd have the right to defend themselves.

Not really true, or likely more true an analogy than you believe. First, when the boundaries for Israel and Palestine were drawn, AFTER a period where Jews were strongly encouraged to migrate (a lot had come during the holocaust), the Israeli portion had 51% Jews and 49% Palestinians. The Palestinien portion had over 99% Palestiniens. Further, the only real justification for letting all these new people (Jews) come in and settle was the Bible and guilt over the holocaust. Pretty much the same justifications white people used for settling and taking lands in the US.

A further similarity is something I mentioned above. Israel never denies taking Palestinien lands, they just claim its justified. Before Israel, the Ottoman empire had ostentiable hold of the territory. However, any deeds from that time are simply considered "invalid". Similarly, claims to historic grazing lands, etc are all ignored, because, of course there "is no deed", (much as with Native Americans). That a family may have lived in a place for almost a thousand years means nothing. No proof will be accepted except an Israeli title and those are very, very difficult for any Palestinien to obtain.

As for the attack.. well, like I said, how many of us would sit back and let a group of people establish a country where we live? It is what we did to Native Americans. That was wrong.

LIke us, Irael is not going to go away. We are finally beginning a kind of reconing for those acts, though what was done will never, ever be repaired or undone. Israel, however, has yet to even admit it has ever done anything wrong.

Israel continues to simply allow Jews to move into any land they wish. They did oust a few groups, they have issued a few promises to halt settlements, but all the while they encroach further and further into Jerusalem, making it more and more sure that Palestine will never be able to share it as their capitol, though it has religious meaning to not just Jews, but also to Christians and Moslems.

While Israel has flourished with industry, Palestine is denied permits, denied the ability to trade, etc. It has been that way for decades. Palestiniens are no more lazy or dishonest or desiring of violance than Israelis. They are, however, far more desperate.

So, Israel accomplishes, in 50 years not just the takeover of Palestine, but the literal obliteration of an entire people, and entire culture. The remnant of territory that remains is so pitiful, it cannot possibly be a self-sustaining country. Israel knows this. They let some kids leave, but almost no one gets to come back. Palestiniens who live in diverse areas have no place to which to return. Israel won't let them.

The real truth is that if Israel let all Palestiniens scattered throughout the world back, they would likely outnumber Jews. However, without a country, without a unified land, they are no longer "a people". Instead, they are just groups of people who may eat the same foods, sing a few of the same songs and share a couple of customs, but who;s children are all melded blends of countries.

This, too, is similar to Native Americans, except that we effectively exterminated whole groups of Native Americans. Those remaining, though were often shoved together without regard to culture or tribe. So, now, few retain their original customs and culture.

Israel does get credit for creating its vast infrastructure, agriculture, etc. Our predecessors deserve credit, too. People who moved to the future Israel fought and worked hard. BUT, does that give them the right to have held the Palestiniens in what became glorified prison camps? Does it justify each and every act that Israel does? Does who we are now justify what we did to the Native Americans.

As someone said, the toothpast is not going back into the tube. Still, if things go on as they are, it will mean the anniliation of Palestine, which will, in turn, likely mean ALL of us winding up in a world war. All I say is that its time to get beyond this "You either like Israel and support everything it does or you are obviously anti-semitic" argument. I don't support everything MY government does! I think that makes me a patriot, not a traitor! Criticizing Israel is no different from criticizing the actions of any other Nation. It does not represent Judaism.

[deronimo]

The thread is not derailed, it just has Player and Snorri participating in it...

10/10

[PLAYER57832]

Snorri, when you said, "Analogies are stupid for such a complicated mess " you don't mean weak or ambiguous ones did you?

Well it's more that for analogies to work for the whole thing they quickly develop into "but what if this situation was exactly like Israel?"

Hmmm, maybe she was going for.

Palistinian dude was just relaxing in 1948, Jews show up looking to make the place back into Isreal, sent him packing, that sucks the hooka.
How would you like it if someone came and knocked down your house to build a casino?

Yes, although the Balfor declaration was back a few years before that.