Barack HUSSEIN Obama

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Woodruff
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by Woodruff »

King Doctor wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
King Doctor wrote:
Woodruff wrote:That still seems shitty to me, if it were passed under Clinton. I mean..."Ha, I got it but you guys are screwed!".
Personally, I think that it's a good example of bold, strong and fearless leadership.
Precisely why would that be a good example of bold, strong and fearless leadership?
Because he did something bold, was unafraid of the consequences and drew a clear line in the sand to show where the new boundaries lay.
Can't get much firmer and stronger than that. We would all do well to learn from such an example.
What is bold about taking protection for yourself while denying it to those who come behind you?
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Night Strike
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by Night Strike »

King Doctor wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
King Doctor wrote:
Woodruff wrote:That still seems shitty to me, if it were passed under Clinton. I mean..."Ha, I got it but you guys are screwed!".
Personally, I think that it's a good example of bold, strong and fearless leadership.
Precisely why would that be a good example of bold, strong and fearless leadership?
Because he did something bold, was unafraid of the consequences and drew a clear line in the sand to show where the new boundaries lay.

Can't get much firmer and stronger than that. We would all do well to learn from such an example.
There's nothing bold or fearless about Clinton signing a law saying that Clinton is the last president to get lifetime secret service. It's quite the opposite (which is Woodruff's point).
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Metsfanmax
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by Metsfanmax »

Woodruff wrote:
King Doctor wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
King Doctor wrote:
Woodruff wrote:That still seems shitty to me, if it were passed under Clinton. I mean..."Ha, I got it but you guys are screwed!".
Personally, I think that it's a good example of bold, strong and fearless leadership.
Precisely why would that be a good example of bold, strong and fearless leadership?
Because he did something bold, was unafraid of the consequences and drew a clear line in the sand to show where the new boundaries lay.
Can't get much firmer and stronger than that. We would all do well to learn from such an example.
What is bold about taking protection for yourself while denying it to those who come behind you?
Pretty much everything about that is bold.
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Woodruff
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by Woodruff »

Metsfanmax wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
King Doctor wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
King Doctor wrote: Personally, I think that it's a good example of bold, strong and fearless leadership.
Precisely why would that be a good example of bold, strong and fearless leadership?
Because he did something bold, was unafraid of the consequences and drew a clear line in the sand to show where the new boundaries lay.
Can't get much firmer and stronger than that. We would all do well to learn from such an example.
What is bold about taking protection for yourself while denying it to those who come behind you?
Pretty much everything about that is bold.
Courageous and daring? I guess it would be daring...but I don't see how it's courageous.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Metsfanmax
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by Metsfanmax »

Woodruff wrote:
Courageous and daring? I guess it would be daring...but I don't see how it's courageous.
Is it because you fail to understand that courage doesn't always have to be associated with an action that is viewed as selfless?
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Woodruff
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by Woodruff »

Metsfanmax wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Courageous and daring? I guess it would be daring...but I don't see how it's courageous.
Is it because you fail to understand that courage doesn't always have to be associated with an action that is viewed as selfless?
No, it's because I understand that courage does require some risk to one's self to be involved. Clinton signing this law and having it not apply to himself carried no risk at all to his self.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Metsfanmax
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by Metsfanmax »

Woodruff wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Courageous and daring? I guess it would be daring...but I don't see how it's courageous.
Is it because you fail to understand that courage doesn't always have to be associated with an action that is viewed as selfless?
No, it's because I understand that courage does require some risk to one's self to be involved. Clinton signing this law and having it not apply to himself carried no risk at all to his self.
Sure there was risk to himself - that was already established above. He faced political danger by appearing to be selfish, and did it anyway. That's not courage in the same way that entering a burning building to save someone is courage, but it's still courage.
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Night Strike
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by Night Strike »

Metsfanmax wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Courageous and daring? I guess it would be daring...but I don't see how it's courageous.
Is it because you fail to understand that courage doesn't always have to be associated with an action that is viewed as selfless?
No, it's because I understand that courage does require some risk to one's self to be involved. Clinton signing this law and having it not apply to himself carried no risk at all to his self.
Sure there was risk to himself - that was already established above. He faced political danger by appearing to be selfish, and did it anyway. That's not courage in the same way that entering a burning building to save someone is courage, but it's still courage.
I'm completely speculating here, but since it appears that the law went into effect in 1997, it could have been passed prior to the 1996 election. If that was the case, it could have read that the winner of the 1996 presidential election would be the final president to receive secret service for life. Either way, this is completely not the topic of this thread (I know I helped contribute).
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Phatscotty
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by Phatscotty »

was just about to say "I want to talk about P-Bo too"...but what is all this SS stuff. Good to know though!
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by jimboston »

King Doctor wrote:Also, I like to think of myself as functioning like a sort of white bloodcell here, seeking out the antibodies of foolishness and unreason and then dissolving them with repeated blasts of purified sense and logic.
Should I make this my signature?
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jimboston
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by jimboston »

King Doctor wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I was unaware that white blood cells killed anything by calling it names in a hateful and mocking tone...
Another tedious attempt to bait me by one of this forum's angry conserva-trolls.


My posts are clearly logical and well-written, the only person attempting to start a flame-war here is you.
Another vote... do we all agree that the Doctor's posts are "logical and well-written".

I agree to the well-written part... not the logical part. I also think he has excluded the part about them all containing insults and the condescending tone.

What say you?
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Timminz
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by Timminz »

When people use words you don't understand fully, it doesn't necessarily mean they're insulting you. Same thing holds true for when they show you to be wrong, or disagree with you, or hold different sets of values than you.
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jimboston
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by jimboston »

King Doctor wrote:The idea that the richest country on earth was allowing its citizens to die in the gutter when they became ill with easily treatable diseases was a complete travesty.
I guess Boston must be isolated from the rest of the country. I only see about 5-6 people dying in the gutters each week. (JK)

Um... don't know where you get your info Doctor, but the image of people "dying in the gutters" is innacurate.
King Doctor wrote: Access to basic healthcare services is something that every government ought to be providing, in the same way as it provides an army to protect against armed invaders.
Obviously your opinion and you are entitled to it. That said, the idea that the Gov't should/must provide healthcare for citizens, legal immigrants, and illegal aliens is NOT supported in anyway by the US Constitution. I could argue how it in fact is a violation of the Constitution.
King Doctor wrote: Handing over healthcare to private companies perverted healthcare-provider's motives; making profit, rather than best-treatment, the purpose of care. It also added massive costs to the system (a multi-million dollar insurance industry) which a government administered scheme ought to be able to cut out.
Um... perverted view. If Gov't did nothing (i.e. if there were no Healthcare bill) then the Gov't is NOT "handing over healthcare to private companies"... it is just letting the status remain. Your statement implies that Gov't was running the healthcare system prior to legislation being passed, and if it hadn't passed then they would have handed the system over to private companies. This is an upside down and inside out view.
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jimboston
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by jimboston »

Timminz wrote:When people use words you don't understand fully, it doesn't necessarily mean they're insulting you. Same thing holds true for when they show you to be wrong, or disagree with you, or hold different sets of values than you.
Timminz, are you suggesting this is what the Doctor has been doing?

I don't see it.

# 1 - He hasn't used words I don't understand.

# 2 - He hasn't shown me to be wrong... except for a couple spelling /punctuation errors.

# 3 - He does hold different views... which is fine.

# 4 - He has been insulting and condescending.
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thegreekdog
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by thegreekdog »

KD - Thanks man. Seriously. I like having an actual debate without the useless one-liners.

- Bank Bailout

Theoretically, I would have been against any and all the bailout plans (whether they were supported by President Bush or President Obama). I think bailouts encourage failure, especially for companies that lobby Congress so effectively and can lobby Congress effectively in the future. However, realistically, the bailouts were necessary to prevent the collapse of, as you call it, Main Street. Therefore, I think I support the bank bailouts, if only because they appear to have worked.

I also agree that banks, and others, need to curb suspicious and harmful practices (my biggest beef has to do with the insistence on giving loans to homebuyers who cannot afford such loans). However, I believe the government's role in "preventing" these practices is to educate the public, and not impose regulations. An educated public will make better decisions; and if they don't make better decisions, they should fail (and, really, we have a pretty easy failure system - bankruptcy is not as onerous as it sounds).

- Auto Bailout

What are your thoughts on this one?

- Healthcare

I do not support the healthcare plan (either the theoretical plan or the actual plan). The actual plan costs entirely too much money for what it actually does (I believe I read somewhere that 26 million people will remain uninsured). I also do not think anyone has actually died because of lack of medical care due to lack of insurance; I think that's a false argument based on emotional response rather than actual occurences. However, I do understand the rising healthcare costs are, in some way, related to the uninsured using emergency rooms as their doctors' offices. As I've indicated in other, older threads, I support the federal government insuring Americans who cannot afford insurance (to cut down those costs). I also support the portabiltiy and availability of health insurance throughout the United States (to increase competition). Those things apparently did not make it into the law.

Your characterization of the reason the law did not go far enough seems to be the requested response to the politicizing that the Democrats did to explain why the bill sucked. The Republicans did not help the bill fail. The Democrats did that all on their own (when health insurers are paying money to both parties, they have the support of both parties). If you recall, after the president's summit with the Republicans (which I watched, I loved, and I want to see more of), there were no changes to the healthcare plan.

By the way, I know a whole lot of doctors and you're the first one I've seen (that's not on TV with the president) who supports the Democratic version of healthcare reform.

- Wars

I agree with your views.

- Patriot Act

Yep, I agree with your views here too.

- Gay Marriage

I also agree with your views (except the Christian part). If a homosexual couple was married, I think recongition should be given across religious and societal sections.

- Obama v. McCain/Palin

Although I did not vote for McCain/Palin for other reasons (namely, I did not see much of a difference between the two candidates), I understand and agree with your views (although, I'm not sure Sarah Palin would be relevant as vice president and Joe Biden is pretty moronic and insane himself).

- Tea Party

I think it's very clear that the Tea Party has some racist members (as do most other organizations, including, but not limited to the Democrats, the Republicans, the Black Panthers, the NAACP, the Catholic Church, etc., etc.). I also think that the Democrats have attempted to focus scrutiny on those elements and have ignored the economic views of the movement. I may be a little paranoid, but I think this is a purposeful attempt to divert attention away from the ideas of limited government and to encourage marginalization. There is a video on YouTube which shows that people on the opposite side of the spectrum from the Tea Party masses making quite inflammatory comments about then-President Bush.

My point here is that for one to characterize the Tea Party movement as largely racist, based on some placards and some statements, is a mischaracterization. It's as if I would look at that YouTube video and characterize the Democrat Party as criminal because they want President Bush to die. In sum, the characterization of the Tea Party movement as racist is tired and shows a lack of any sort of thought about fiscal policy (yeah, I'm talking to you Jaenene Garafalo).

- Your Posts

I shouldn't have concentrated on this in the first place, so I won't do it again here.
King Doctor wrote:Well I'm sory to hear that you feel that way, as you seem to be a highly erudite and sincere young man. I hope that in time your feelings towards me will warm, and I assure you that I shall endeavour to conduct myself in a fashion that will make such a transition as easy as possible for you.
Thanks (mostly for the "young" part). It's not the ease of transition that concerns me. I'm fairly used to the deconstruction of others' arguments in the forum of mocking posts. After all, my favorite poster is SultanOfSurreal.
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by Snorri1234 »

thegreekdog wrote: I also do not think anyone has actually died because of lack of medical care due to lack of insurance;
Feel free to continue to think that, but realise that you are wrong.
"Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice skate uphill."

Duane: You know what they say about love and war.
Tim: Yes, one involves a lot of physical and psychological pain, and the other one's war.
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by tzor »

Snorri1234 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote: I also do not think anyone has actually died because of lack of medical care due to lack of insurance;
Feel free to continue to think that, but realise that you are wrong.
Feel free to continune to think that, there is a posibility you might be right.

But until then ... do have any evidene of someone dying to to lack of medical care because of lack of insurance?
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by Snorri1234 »

tzor wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote: I also do not think anyone has actually died because of lack of medical care due to lack of insurance;
Feel free to continue to think that, but realise that you are wrong.
Feel free to continue to think that, there is a possibility you might be right.

But until then ... do have any evidence of someone dying to to lack of medical care because of lack of insurance?
How is this controversial? If you don't seek out needed medical care because you can't afford it, you can end up dying. It's not that hard to come up with a theoretical example yourself, and there are plenty of stories on the web of people who this happened to. Hell, you can probably find people in your immediate circle who almost died because they didn't go to the doctor.
"Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice skate uphill."

Duane: You know what they say about love and war.
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by tzor »

Snorri1234 wrote:How is this controversial? If you don't seek out needed medical care because you can't afford it, you can end up dying.
OK I was nit picking "due to" generally implies a direct cause and effect. Indirect causes and effects are obvious, although having a medical policy that is not suited to your particular needs can cause the same result. Missed medication, missed early diagnosis, can all lead to fatal conditions. But this problem also impacts people with insurance as well, since not all insurance covers people in an optimal manner to ensure that fatal conditions are caught early and are contained.
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by Timminz »

jimboston wrote:# 4 - He has been insulting.
This is the part you will have to point out to me.
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by Snorri1234 »

tzor wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:How is this controversial? If you don't seek out needed medical care because you can't afford it, you can end up dying.
OK I was nit picking "due to" generally implies a direct cause and effect. Indirect causes and effects are obvious, although having a medical policy that is not suited to your particular needs can cause the same result. Missed medication, missed early diagnosis, can all lead to fatal conditions. But this problem also impacts people with insurance as well, since not all insurance covers people in an optimal manner to ensure that fatal conditions are caught early and are contained.

Well yeah I really only brought it up since I saw greek wanted to go for the "doctors don't actively deny people care" argument. It's just such a dishonest argument because it denies that the suffering and death due to the system is not real or anyone's fault.
"Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice skate uphill."

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Tim: Yes, one involves a lot of physical and psychological pain, and the other one's war.
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by john9blue »

i agree with snorri here, there's no way insurance can have a negative effect on someone's health. it stands to reason that people have died or gone bankrupt due to lack of insurance, because that's what insurance is supposed to prevent.
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jimboston
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by jimboston »

Obviously people without insurance or other access to proper health care, they are more likely to die prematurely.

That is not the same as "dying in the streets" as some previous poster had contended.
===

Regardless of these details... the main point is;
In a free capitalist republic, why should the Gov't force one set of citizens to pay for services that benefit another set of citizens?

The only exception (answer) Constitutionalist and/or moderate Libertarians will make is something like;
When it can be demonstrated that this action will provide a significant benefit to the country as a whole.

I don't think Healthcare for all passes this test. Ditto welfare as it exists today. I think all these Gov't programs create a sense of entitlement. I have seen this first hand. Democrats and Socialists think they are helping the poor... but they perpetuate a system that discourages growth
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by Phatscotty »

MMMMM MMMMM MMM. Barack Hussein Obama.
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Re: Barack HUSSEIN Obama

Post by thegreekdog »

Snorri1234 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote: I also do not think anyone has actually died because of lack of medical care due to lack of insurance;
Feel free to continue to think that, but realise that you are wrong.
Did you know that some people who didn't have enough money to purchase insurance in the US could actually receive health insurance from the US government?
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