[Abandoned] Research & Conquer

[Victor Sullivan]

In case you are still listening, TaCktiX, natty_dread thinks the new losing conditions/requirements XML feature would be useful for this map. Any comment?

Hey, that's a great idea! (This map is so...o amazing I can't even begin to tell you) You could have the capitals as required territories. I'm wondering (though I don't know as if you'd have space) if you could have offensive facilities? Each type of facility could bombard a certain group of territories (the final facility being able to bombard capitals or flagged territories). Idk, just a thought, but great idea ender/natty!

[carlpgoodrich]

Ya, when I first read about the XML update, this map was the first thing that came to mind. Hope it gets finished!

[OliverFA]

Sorry about not being here for long time. Of course, the new XML greatly helps this map, and it's a good excuse to retake the work in it. I'll do my best to create a first version of the XML soon. First, this evening will create the schedule of the work, so I can track the progress and inform about it.

[OliverFA]

Haven't had the time to finish the XML skeletton and the progress dashboard, but advanced most of it. Will continue tomorrow.

[TaCktiX]

Alright, the word is simple: I'm back on the case. The last three months I've had a lot of work (including weekends), and the thing causing it ended last week. So that's time available finally to work on getting some graphical touches on this and making the gameplay extremely readable. If we do this right, you all shall have your R&C by Christmas.

[OliverFA]

Christmas is the way to go!!! This evening I am back in the work. And with the progress tracker it will be easy to see how it evolves each day.

About the XML part, the plan is to do everything even if the numbers are not fixed yet. I mean things such as neutrals, bonuses and such. But all those numbers can be easily canged when the structure is done.

Last thing I plan to do is the territories positions and the territory connections. Also because it is more susceptible to change. But I'll also do them. I just want to have the more stable work done before.

[OliverFA]

By the way. This capital/requirement update really is what the map was needing. Solves a lot of problems and helps the map in many different ways.

- Makes the map playable for Assasin.
- Provides a new strategic layer, as your capital is now very important to keep.
- Allows to have completely separate areas between the geographical map and the tech tree. No need to provide acces from the capital now. (But the spy tech will still be able to bombard).
- Also solves the problem of having "double research".

[Victor Sullivan]

Cool! I'm excited to see a new draft

[OliverFA]

That's the XML estimation effort in number of lines to be made.



As I said, territories will be the last thing to be made just in case the layout changes a little bit. Continents are fairly stable now, and changing bonuses is pretty easy.

Will update every day the progress and maybe also the current XML.

[OliverFA]

That's the process for today:

Click image to enlarge.

I have advanced with several simple parts of the XML. Currently I am creating the structure for 3 big parts, which are territories reinforcements without tech, with secret conscription and with open conscription. Once I have that strcture created I believe I will be able to advanced more quickly thanks to Copy & Paste.

Once I have the "Territotories without tech" part finished, I will upload the XML.

[Evil DIMwit]

Isn't it rather premature to start on the huge XML project before the map's out of Gameplay?

[ender516]

If there are in fact going to be nearly 60,000 lines of XML, then the sooner coding starts, the better. Plus, there is nothing quite like writing out the details to point out basic flaws. If it should turn out that some planned feature of the gameplay cannot be done, it is better to know sooner rather than later. (I should go nudge chipv to see if he has updated the Map XML Wizard for the <requirements/> feature. Testing gameplay in the Wizard is a nice way to check for proper functionality.)

[natty dread]

I just want to say I'm so glad to see this one back in action.

[OliverFA]

Evil DIMwit, thanks for your concern The thing is that I believe that the project on my side has suffered from too much waiting. I got so used to waiting that I reached some point when it was difficult to start again. For that reason I prefer to work on the XML and advance at least a part of the task.

I am aware that some parts will have to be modified to correct some flaws or just for balance, and for that reason I am trying to do first the parts which are less likely to change. Plus as ender516 pointed, it will be much easier to fix things once the XML draft exists.

I am a bit concerned for the big number that the estimation points. 60k lines are a lot. Not sure if this will have some issues with the CC engine? I hope I will be able to figure a way to reduce that number a bit, even if this means making the XML more complicated (shorter but more complicated) because I would compensate this complication with lots of comments in the code.

[OliverFA]

I just want to say I'm so glad to see this one back in action.

Thanks

[OliverFA]

I think I have found a way to reduce the combined length of the two conscription techs from ~55k to ~35k. (Is good that today I am free at work )

The first approach was to ignore the normal <reinforcement> section and recreate it completely through XML. This forced to recreate all the "normal" bonus which was 10k. Then do it again for Secret Conscription (15k) and Open Conscription (30k)

The new approach is to use the <reinforcement> tag. This saves 10k of lines. I just will need to code 48 lines to adjust the reinforcements from the tech research area. Then, for Secret Conscription and Open Conscription code just the difference between the bonus with no tech and the bonus with tech. For Secret Conscription the result is 15k lines (more or less the same) but for Open Conscription is 20k (10k less lines).

The Open Conscription tech will invalidate all the Secret Conscription continents, making the trick.

[OliverFA]

Good news. I was able to reduce the estimated total of lines from ~60k to ~40k. I hope the a reduction of 33% and 20k lines in the XML size will really make a difference. That also jumped the overall progress a little above 2%, which is also good.

Click image to enlarge.

[army of nobunaga]

this is insane man.. that is a lot of flicking lines of xml.

I dont know much about this language, but the ones I work with, um yes ... 40k lines of say perl will slow down a server depending on what the code is.
Might be something you want to check on before you get like 5% finished.. lol.

hats off to you and you should get a medal of some sort for this.

[ender516]

It might be worth comparing this size to some existing maps. I don't have time right now to download the XML files, but a peek at the Hive and any other map that has a lot of continents might be informative. The size of this map might not be a big deal to the server, but it might kill BOB.

[army of nobunaga]

good point ender... COnquerman and HIVE send my bob into seizures.

[OliverFA]

Thanks army of nobunaga and ender516 for your concerns.

I am very aware that I might be forced to drastically reduce the XML file size due to performance issues. However I still think that it will be much easier to do this reduction starting from a finished version of such file, even if it's a big one. As an example, once I have started coding it I have been able to figure that reduction from 60k to 40k.

I think the current phase needs to mix design with coding. Leaving the "just design" phase behind. Coding provides feedback and allows to update the design, preparing the way for a new iteration of coding.

About wasting too much time and effort, don't worry. Many parts have the same structure with minimal variations (such as the continent for 4 territories overriding the continent for 2 territories, the continent for 6 overriding the continent for 4, etc) so copy & paste is my friend It won't take so long, and the effort will pay towards the final objective.

I hope that it will be posible to use the 40k lines version. But I am ready for the case I have to substantially reduce it. As an example, one of the things that I could try if I am forced to reduce the size is reducing also the granurality. Like changing "1 army per territory" to "3 armies per each 3 territories" but I'll try to avoid it first, because it's a bit less intuitive for the player.

It would be good to see the XML for Conquer Man and hive to compare with what I am doing and see the possible similarities. Do you know where I can get those XML files from? Guess I'll try searching in the map creation threads.

[ender516]

The XML files for all CC maps can be found here: http://www.conquerclub.com/maps/

[army of nobunaga]

I know perl ruby and python... mainly as a weird math hobby called the collatz conjecture and doing little gadget codes.

Im on vacation right now and only logging in once a day. but when I get back man, if xml is super easy and just pounding out code (which I suspect) I do not mind doing some portion of it.

Ive been meaning to look at the code and engine for a while now. 40k lines of code, well thats a lot for one person. I dont need a trophy or credit or anything to help. just message me if interested.

[OliverFA]

The XML files for all CC maps can be found here: http://www.conquerclub.com/maps/

Thanks for the link. It's very useful!

[OliverFA]

I know perl ruby and python... mainly as a weird math hobby called the collatz conjecture and doing little gadget codes.

Im on vacation right now and only logging in once a day. but when I get back man, if xml is super easy and just pounding out code (which I suspect) I do not mind doing some portion of it.

Ive been meaning to look at the code and engine for a while now. 40k lines of code, well thats a lot for one person. I dont need a trophy or credit or anything to help. just message me if interested.

Thanks for your offer It makes sense that maybe some parts can be split and done by different people, joining them again later. I hope that by Monday I'll know if that it is possible or not. And then I'll contact you with wathever result I have.

If you finally help us, I think that you deserve a mention. Specially for doing the hard job. I'll check with TaCktix. But I am pretty sure he will agree.