[Abandoned] Research & Conquer

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

TaCktiX, is there anything on the graphics side that we should be discussing as well? I just want to make sure that there isn't anything that's getting drowned out by the gameplay discussions

[OliverFA]

I have fixed the bonus calculator. Thanks Tanarri for pointing about the errors

http://www.arrakis.es/~oliverfa/RCDashboard.xlsx

[TaCktiX]

Don't worry about it until the next version I release, but thanks for the thought.

[OliverFA]

I think I don't forget any of the open subjects. Thanks again for all the good comments that help making the map better. Here are my thougts and ideas about your comments:

- Advanced techs being able to be researched from TSF and not requiring the basic version: Don't worry about the XML, as once it is decided it can be fixed easily if we decide to go that way.

I find interesting the idea of allowing the alternative to go directly for the advanced tech. But I don't feel like the advanced version should override the basic one. As we are defining the techs, the advanced version has more or less the double effect than the basic one. We could keep it this way. Using the techs we have already decided as an example:

- Stading Army +3 - Activated Reserves +12 - Together +18
- Secret Conscription +1 per each 6 territories - Open conscription +3 per each 6 territories - Together +4

- TSF cost and autodeploy bonus If we are making TSF more important than before (opening a direct shortcut for researching advanced techs) I think that the research cost should not be too low.

My proposal (not final) would be +8 autodeploy and 45 cost, based in what we discussed at the end of 2010. +8 is high enough to make TSF valuable and 45 makes it so (45/8=5.6).

- National Pride and Propaganda They are both basic techs, and are related. The basic idea is that your national land should provide higher income than foreign lands. Why? Because your national population works harder for you than the population of the foreign lands you have occupied.

Propaganda is about making foreign homelands productive for you. So with Propaganda, all homelands (national and foreign) provide the same income.

National Pride is about increasing income from yout homeland. So with Propaganda and National Pride, your native homeland provides higher income.

There is the unresolved question about what to do with "neutral" lands. If we tie those neutral homelands to Propaganda, then Propaganda becomes too poweful. If we tie it to National Pride, then NP becomes too powerful. What about requiring National Pride AND Propaganda? (As long as this doesn't cause trouble in the map image)

- Doomsday Device I am ok with making it accesible from Zeppelin Strikes and TSF.

Well, it wasn't much. But the good thing is that I am back in track for the map. More to come tomorrow!

[carlpgoodrich]

Good to hear from you Oliver, I was worried that your input was being left out. Here are my comments on your post.

I think I don't forget any of the open subjects. Thanks again for all the good comments that help making the map better. Here are my thougts and ideas about your comments:

- Advanced techs being able to be researched from TSF and not requiring the basic version: Don't worry about the XML, as once it is decided it can be fixed easily if we decide to go that way.

I find interesting the idea of allowing the alternative to go directly for the advanced tech. But I don't feel like the advanced version should override the basic one. As we are defining the techs, the advanced version has more or less the double effect than the basic one. We could keep it this way. Using the techs we have already decided as an example:

- Stading Army +3 - Activated Reserves +12 - Together +18
- Secret Conscription +1 per each 6 territories - Open conscription +3 per each 6 territories - Together +4

From a conceptual perspective I don't like being able to have advanced techs without the basic ones, but from a gameplay perspective I really do, and I think gameplay considerations are much more important. The additive effect makes perfect sense for SA/AR and Mining. With the conscription, I always thought Open Conscription was meant to override Secret Conscription, but I have no problem having them add (as well as the standard +1 per 3). I think Open Conscription should be +1 per 2 not +3 per 6. This way you have territory bonuses kicking in every 2, 3, and 6. Now that I think about it, maybe Secret Conscription should be +1 every 5 so that the bonuses kick in at different times.

- TSF cost and autodeploy bonus If we are making TSF more important than before (opening a direct shortcut for researching advanced techs) I think that the research cost should not be too low.

My proposal (not final) would be +8 autodeploy and 45 cost, based in what we discussed at the end of 2010. +8 is high enough to make TSF valuable and 45 makes it so (45/8=5.6).

I don't necessarily see why you have to make the TSF's cost more since the advanced techs are themselves so high. I think we should approach the TSF's with the following goals: 1) the autodeploy should be relevant in early to mid games, 2) it should be a practical way to gain an advantage when pursuing a research heavy strategy, and 3) it should provide a practical (though very risky) means to get advanced techs earlier than normal. Given these considerations, I am more inclined towards a smaller +4 or +5 bonus with 20 or 25 neutral.

My main fear is that if its too high like +8/45 then people will only get it later in the game and then it will be "just another bonus."

- National Pride and Propaganda They are both basic techs, and are related. The basic idea is that your national land should provide higher income than foreign lands. Why? Because your national population works harder for you than the population of the foreign lands you have occupied.

Propaganda is about making foreign homelands productive for you. So with Propaganda, all homelands (national and foreign) provide the same income.

National Pride is about increasing income from yout homeland. So with Propaganda and National Pride, your native homeland provides higher income.

There is the unresolved question about what to do with "neutral" lands. If we tie those neutral homelands to Propaganda, then Propaganda becomes too poweful. If we tie it to National Pride, then NP becomes too powerful. What about requiring National Pride AND Propaganda? (As long as this doesn't cause trouble in the map image)

Wait, I'm confused. I thought we had decided that Propaganda was just a plus x per capital bonus. The reason, if I remember, was to make it more relevant since holding a foreign homeland might be very hard considering the large neutral troops that might be left on some territories.

My understanding was that there are 3 bonuses at play here: 1) the non-tech bonus that is +x for every entire homeland, 2) National Pride which increases the value of holding your homeland, and 3) Propaganda, which is a way of increasing the value of cities (capitals), both foreign and domestic. In this setup, there is no ambiguity with homelands that start as neutral. Do you think we need to go back to the drawing board with these?

- Doomsday Device I am ok with making it accesible from Zeppelin Strikes and TSF.

Well, it wasn't much. But the good thing is that I am back in track for the map. More to come tomorrow!

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

I'm going to break these down into individual topics, since keeping them all as one is going to become a quoting nightmare real soon

- Advanced techs being able to be researched from TSF and not requiring the basic version: Don't worry about the XML, as once it is decided it can be fixed easily if we decide to go that way.

From a conceptual perspective I don't like being able to have advanced techs without the basic ones, but from a gameplay perspective I really do, and I think gameplay considerations are much more important. The additive effect makes perfect sense for SA/AR and Mining. With the conscription, I always thought Open Conscription was meant to override Secret Conscription, but I have no problem having them add (as well as the standard +1 per 3). I think Open Conscription should be +1 per 2 not +3 per 6. This way you have territory bonuses kicking in every 2, 3, and 6. Now that I think about it, maybe Secret Conscription should be +1 every 5 so that the bonuses kick in at different times.

Likewise, I think from a conceptual perspective it makes no sense. Because of this, there's also the intuitive perspective as well. I think it feels more natural that the basic tech is be required for the advanced one to work. This makes it easier for people to learn the map.

That being said, from a gameplay option perspective, I do agree that it would make things more interesting if the basic tech isn't a requirement. As carl mentions, it opens up the possibility for players to take risks at getting advanced techs earlier and multiple advanced techs cheaper. This promotes TSFs as a research heavy strategy tech.

Also from a graphics perspective, the basic tech not being required clears up the requirement for a line or two of text in the game explanation, which is always a good thing.

Personally I'm torn on which direction to go with this one, as they both have good benefits and their downsides.

Regarding SC and OC bonus, if we're going to open up the advanced techs through TSFs, then I think that the map text needs to be adjusted to accurately show what bonus players are getting. Even if we're not making the change to prerequisites then I think this change needs to be made if the code will be +1 per 6 for SC and +3 per 6 or +1 per 2 (which, like carl, I agree with more than +3 per 6), since those bonuses are different than a total effect of 1 per 2 and 1 per 1 territory. I understand this was the initial idea behind SC/OC and the effect is very similar, but the bonuses as +1/6 and +3/6 are not the same.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

- TSF cost and autodeploy bonus If we are making TSF more important than before (opening a direct shortcut for researching advanced techs) I think that the research cost should not be too low.

My proposal (not final) would be +8 autodeploy and 45 cost, based in what we discussed at the end of 2010. +8 is high enough to make TSF valuable and 45 makes it so (45/8=5.6).

I don't necessarily see why you have to make the TSF's cost more since the advanced techs are themselves so high. I think we should approach the TSF's with the following goals: 1) the autodeploy should be relevant in early to mid games, 2) it should be a practical way to gain an advantage when pursuing a research heavy strategy, and 3) it should provide a practical (though very risky) means to get advanced techs earlier than normal. Given these considerations, I am more inclined towards a smaller +4 or +5 bonus with 20 or 25 neutral.

My main fear is that if its too high like +8/45 then people will only get it later in the game and then it will be "just another bonus."

The reason you would make TSFs cost more if they were a direct connection to advanced techs is that you could gain the benefits of the advanced techs without going through the basic tech cost first. That being said, since the advanced techs don't have a cost/bonus ratio benefit to them, I don't know that the increased cost should be too high. I would give it an extra 5-10 above a turn cost of 4 or give it a turn cost of 5, perhaps a hair higher.

As for the cost and how high to put it, if we're going to open up the advanced techs to working without the basics, then I think that becomes a large part of its uniqueness and the bonus potentially takes a back seat to it. If this is the case, then it becoming a mid-late game tech may not be as bad as it would have been before, since the main benefit would become its ability to capture multiple advanced techs without going through the expense of the basic tech.

The neutral cost that we assign TSF will dictate whether it is used as an early-mid game unique bonus or as a late game method of researching advanced techs quicker (if the changes above are made). If +8/45 is used, then it definitely will be used as a mid-late game tech and its bonus will become less distinctive. The reduction in distinctiveness of the bonus though is countered by its direct access to gaining advanced research benefits quicker.

I do think that 45 is a bit high as I do like the idea of TSFs being used as a mid game attempt to gain advanced techs quicker for a surprise spike in bonus. Given Mining is 35, I would suggest that TSF not be put any higher than that. I do think that 25 is too low given its potential benefits to skip past basic techs. I would suggest 30, though 35 would be a second choice. Something in between would work as well if we care to stray off of the divisible by 5 thing. The bonus I would suggest is +6. This would still make TSFs worthwhile for a bonus while accomodating a slightly higher cost for their added basic tech skipping benefit.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

- National Pride and Propaganda They are both basic techs, and are related. The basic idea is that your national land should provide higher income than foreign lands. Why? Because your national population works harder for you than the population of the foreign lands you have occupied.

Propaganda is about making foreign homelands productive for you. So with Propaganda, all homelands (national and foreign) provide the same income.

National Pride is about increasing income from yout homeland. So with Propaganda and National Pride, your native homeland provides higher income.

There is the unresolved question about what to do with "neutral" lands. If we tie those neutral homelands to Propaganda, then Propaganda becomes too poweful. If we tie it to National Pride, then NP becomes too powerful. What about requiring National Pride AND Propaganda? (As long as this doesn't cause trouble in the map image)

Wait, I'm confused. I thought we had decided that Propaganda was just a plus x per capital bonus. The reason, if I remember, was to make it more relevant since holding a foreign homeland might be very hard considering the large neutral troops that might be left on some territories.

My understanding was that there are 3 bonuses at play here: 1) the non-tech bonus that is +x for every entire homeland, 2) National Pride which increases the value of holding your homeland, and 3) Propaganda, which is a way of increasing the value of cities (capitals), both foreign and domestic. In this setup, there is no ambiguity with homelands that start as neutral. Do you think we need to go back to the drawing board with these?

I'm not sure that we ever finished that conversation, or, more to the point, I think we may have but nobody else was around at the time to put in their thoughts

First I'll start off by saying that I agree with not including the neutral territories. As attached as I had been to the idea, it really will make Propaganda too strong in the long run.

As mentioned, the non-tech homeland (both national and foreign) bonuses, National Pride, and Propaganda are all tied together. The way I see it, there are a couple ways we can go about making these bonuses interact and they are as follows:

1) As Oliver described, National homeland provides a higher bonus, Propaganda increases the bonus to be equal, and National Pride boosts the national bonus higher.

2) As we put forward, the logic would be that the National Pride bonus would provide your people with that increased pride so that they do work harder for you than any of the others. Propaganda would be a sort of forced 'convincing' of all homelands under your control to work harder 'or else', whatever that or else is.

While I agree that conceptually Oliver's version sounds better, from a gameplay perspective I prefer the version that carl and I came up with. The main problem gameplay wise that I find with Oliver's version (the original one) is that it makes Propaganda not worth very much as a tech. It basically provides a +2 bonus if you can clear out all the neutrals left behind AND hold the foreign homeland bonus. To me, that doesn't even seem worth spending any troops on, much less an extra 20 for the research. For this reason I liked the idea that we came up with for Propaganda being a bonus per capital owned. This would make Propaganda worthwhile for taking out another player since it would only rely on you taking over the capital.

Effectively what you would have with the per capital idea is the following:

- Owning a national and foreign homeland would give you the same bonus
- Owning a foreign capital by itself with Propaganda would give you less of a bonus than a national homeland with no tech
- Owning a national homeland with National Pride would give you a higher output than a foreign homeland with Propaganda
- Owning a national homeland and a foreign homeland will give the same bonus with Propaganda

These relationships are based on national and foreign homelands being worth the same amount without tech. They will also hold true regardless of whether we go with +4 for homeland and National Pride bonuses or +6 as had been discussed in the past. I can't remember if it was just me and carl discussing the +6 or if others were involved as well.

I personally think from a gameplay perspective this works out much better than the previous version. What are your thoughts Oliver (and everyone else)?

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

- Doomsday Device I am ok with making it accesible from Zeppelin Strikes and TSF.

I can't remember what the issues were, but wasn't there some really good reason we had abandoned the idea of having Zeppelin Strikes being the basic tech for Doomsday?

I think it may have been that there was no way to enforce Zeppelin Strikes to be a prerequisite? If this was the case, then if we're removing the basic tech prerequisite for Doomsday to work, then I think that having Zeppelin Strikes being the basic tech would be good. I always liked it as a basic tech for Doomsday since they are both similar in function, only Doomsday is much bigger in scale.

[OliverFA]

Good to hear from you Oliver, I was worried that your input was being left out. Here are my comments on your post.

Thanks! I apreciate your concern

I think I don't forget any of the open subjects. Thanks again for all the good comments that help making the map better. Here are my thougts and ideas about your comments:

From a conceptual perspective I don't like being able to have advanced techs without the basic ones, but from a gameplay perspective I really do, and I think gameplay considerations are much more important.

I am not very happy with this either, as TSF was supposed to be a research boost and not a research shortcut. Conceptually it's much better to have advanced techs come after the basic ones. But is something that I could live with if most people think that is it's good for the map.

I don't necessarily see why you have to make the TSF's cost more since the advanced techs are themselves so high. I think we should approach the TSF's with the following goals: 1) the autodeploy should be relevant in early to mid games, 2) it should be a practical way to gain an advantage when pursuing a research heavy strategy, and 3) it should provide a practical (though very risky) means to get advanced techs earlier than normal. Given these considerations, I am more inclined towards a smaller +4 or +5 bonus with 20 or 25 neutral.

TSF has to be big enough for players to want to get it (and also to make a difference) and cheap enough for research players to want to get it during the early game. Maybe +8/45 it's too much. Don't know if +6/35 would be a better approach. Less then 6 looks like a too small bonus in my opinion.

Wait, I'm confused. I thought we had decided that Propaganda was just a plus x per capital bonus. The reason, if I remember, was to make it more relevant since holding a foreign homeland might be very hard considering the large neutral troops that might be left on some territories.

My understanding was that there are 3 bonuses at play here: 1) the non-tech bonus that is +x for every entire homeland, 2) National Pride which increases the value of holding your homeland, and 3) Propaganda, which is a way of increasing the value of cities (capitals), both foreign and domestic. In this setup, there is no ambiguity with homelands that start as neutral. Do you think we need to go back to the drawing board with these?

Well, discussion in this subject was not officially open yet, despite we talked a lot about it. I decided to discuss two techs at once to provide some order to the discussion and to close subjects. Right now the conscriptions are finished (at least until the beta period) and the same for the conscription techs. Currently we are discussing TSF and the National Pride/Propaganda Pair. I'll add now a picture showing the current status of the discussion.

I think there are more comments about this pair of techs in later posts, si I'll answer all of them at once.

[OliverFA]

I'm going to break these down into individual topics, since keeping them all as one is going to become a quoting nightmare real soon

- Advanced techs being able to be researched from TSF and not requiring the basic version: Don't worry about the XML, as once it is decided it can be fixed easily if we decide to go that way.

From a conceptual perspective I don't like being able to have advanced techs without the basic ones, but from a gameplay perspective I really do, and I think gameplay considerations are much more important. The additive effect makes perfect sense for SA/AR and Mining. With the conscription, I always thought Open Conscription was meant to override Secret Conscription, but I have no problem having them add (as well as the standard +1 per 3). I think Open Conscription should be +1 per 2 not +3 per 6. This way you have territory bonuses kicking in every 2, 3, and 6. Now that I think about it, maybe Secret Conscription should be +1 every 5 so that the bonuses kick in at different times.

Likewise, I think from a conceptual perspective it makes no sense. Because of this, there's also the intuitive perspective as well. I think it feels more natural that the basic tech is be required for the advanced one to work. This makes it easier for people to learn the map.

That being said, from a gameplay option perspective, I do agree that it would make things more interesting if the basic tech isn't a requirement. As carl mentions, it opens up the possibility for players to take risks at getting advanced techs earlier and multiple advanced techs cheaper. This promotes TSFs as a research heavy strategy tech.

Also from a graphics perspective, the basic tech not being required clears up the requirement for a line or two of text in the game explanation, which is always a good thing.

Personally I'm torn on which direction to go with this one, as they both have good benefits and their downsides.

Regarding SC and OC bonus, if we're going to open up the advanced techs through TSFs, then I think that the map text needs to be adjusted to accurately show what bonus players are getting. Even if we're not making the change to prerequisites then I think this change needs to be made if the code will be +1 per 6 for SC and +3 per 6 or +1 per 2 (which, like carl, I agree with more than +3 per 6), since those bonuses are different than a total effect of 1 per 2 and 1 per 1 territory. I understand this was the initial idea behind SC/OC and the effect is very similar, but the bonuses as +1/6 and +3/6 are not the same.

I think that you touched a very important subject. SC and OC look a bit strange if OC can be researched without requiring SC. The other tech pairs don't look so odd, but look strange anyway.

This idea came because we wanted TF to be able to research any tech. I think I have found the solution. TF can bombard any tech, but can't attack it. In that way, the TF autodeploy armies can help with the research, and we avoid the problem of researching an advanced tech without the basic one.

[OliverFA]

The neutral cost that we assign TSF will dictate whether it is used as an early-mid game unique bonus or as a late game method of researching advanced techs quicker (if the changes above are made). If +8/45 is used, then it definitely will be used as a mid-late game tech and its bonus will become less distinctive. The reduction in distinctiveness of the bonus though is countered by its direct access to gaining advanced research benefits quicker.

I do think that 45 is a bit high as I do like the idea of TSFs being used as a mid game attempt to gain advanced techs quicker for a surprise spike in bonus. Given Mining is 35, I would suggest that TSF not be put any higher than that. I do think that 25 is too low given its potential benefits to skip past basic techs. I would suggest 30, though 35 would be a second choice. Something in between would work as well if we care to stray off of the divisible by 5 thing. The bonus I would suggest is +6. This would still make TSFs worthwhile for a bonus while accomodating a slightly higher cost for their added basic tech skipping benefit.

I am ok with the +6/35 for Top Secret Facility. I think is a good compromise between being too expensive and not helping enough to research. 6 armies each turn are a significative boost, and a cost of 35 is affordable in the mid game.

[OliverFA]

While I agree that conceptually Oliver's version sounds better, from a gameplay perspective I prefer the version that carl and I came up with. The main problem gameplay wise that I find with Oliver's version (the original one) is that it makes Propaganda not worth very much as a tech. It basically provides a +2 bonus if you can clear out all the neutrals left behind AND hold the foreign homeland bonus. To me, that doesn't even seem worth spending any troops on, much less an extra 20 for the research. For this reason I liked the idea that we came up with for Propaganda being a bonus per capital owned. This would make Propaganda worthwhile for taking out another player since it would only rely on you taking over the capital.

Effectively what you would have with the per capital idea is the following:

- Owning a national and foreign homeland would give you the same bonus
- Owning a foreign capital by itself with Propaganda would give you less of a bonus than a national homeland with no tech
- Owning a national homeland with National Pride would give you a higher output than a foreign homeland with Propaganda
- Owning a national homeland and a foreign homeland will give the same bonus with Propaganda

These relationships are based on national and foreign homelands being worth the same amount without tech. They will also hold true regardless of whether we go with +4 for homeland and National Pride bonuses or +6 as had been discussed in the past. I can't remember if it was just me and carl discussing the +6 or if others were involved as well.

I personally think from a gameplay perspective this works out much better than the previous version. What are your thoughts Oliver (and everyone else)?

I understand that what we are seeking here is a way to make Propaganda worthy without making it overpowered. The good and bad thing is that this pair of tech was supposed to affect the continents features, and for this reason they affect the homeland as a whole.

Of course, if we see that the idea doesn't work with what the map has become, we don't need to stick to"this is the continent tech pair", and we can change the tech to something else, like the capital effect you suggest. But if we could find a way to keep those techs as "continental" ones, this would make the map more complete. That is why I suggested the idea of making BOTH techonologies needed for the neutral continents. Another way of making those techs less vulnerable is providing the continent bonuses in subcontinents instead of forcing players to own the full contienent.

Also, we have to remember that capitals already provide an autodeploy bonus, so it's adding a second bonus to the capital.

I'd like to find a satisfactory way to make those techs working with continents. But if it doesn't work I won't keep it against everything, and will accept changing it in favour of the capital bonuses.

[OliverFA]

- Doomsday Device I am ok with making it accesible from Zeppelin Strikes and TSF.

I can't remember what the issues were, but wasn't there some really good reason we had abandoned the idea of having Zeppelin Strikes being the basic tech for Doomsday?

I think it may have been that there was no way to enforce Zeppelin Strikes to be a prerequisite? If this was the case, then if we're removing the basic tech prerequisite for Doomsday to work, then I think that having Zeppelin Strikes being the basic tech would be good. I always liked it as a basic tech for Doomsday since they are both similar in function, only Doomsday is much bigger in scale.

I think the reason was because there was no way to enforce Zeppelin as a requisite to Doomsday. But if we change TSF from attack to bombard, then the problem is solved. TSF could research all Doomsday cost except for the last one, and the player would be forced to come through Zeppelins.

[OliverFA]

Standing Army and Activated Reserves decided
Secret and Open Conscription Decided
Top Secret Facility in Progress (reaching consensus)
National Pride and Propaganda a bit more open and undecided
Doomsday Device discussion started (wether if it is the advanced version of Zeppelins or not)
Remaining techs to be discussed: Zeppelins, Mines

Click image to enlarge.

[carlpgoodrich]

I think I have found the solution. TF can bombard any tech, but can't attack it. In that way, the TF autodeploy armies can help with the research, and we avoid the problem of researching an advanced tech without the basic one.

Hummmm, I actually really like this. It does solve a lot of problems and I think would work pretty well in the gameplay. It is also simple to explain, which is important. Still would rather a smaller bonus/neutral, but I am willing to let that rest until Beta.

[carlpgoodrich]

While I agree that conceptually Oliver's version sounds better, from a gameplay perspective I prefer the version that carl and I came up with. The main problem gameplay wise that I find with Oliver's version (the original one) is that it makes Propaganda not worth very much as a tech. It basically provides a +2 bonus if you can clear out all the neutrals left behind AND hold the foreign homeland bonus. To me, that doesn't even seem worth spending any troops on, much less an extra 20 for the research. For this reason I liked the idea that we came up with for Propaganda being a bonus per capital owned. This would make Propaganda worthwhile for taking out another player since it would only rely on you taking over the capital.

Effectively what you would have with the per capital idea is the following:

- Owning a national and foreign homeland would give you the same bonus
- Owning a foreign capital by itself with Propaganda would give you less of a bonus than a national homeland with no tech
- Owning a national homeland with National Pride would give you a higher output than a foreign homeland with Propaganda
- Owning a national homeland and a foreign homeland will give the same bonus with Propaganda

These relationships are based on national and foreign homelands being worth the same amount without tech. They will also hold true regardless of whether we go with +4 for homeland and National Pride bonuses or +6 as had been discussed in the past. I can't remember if it was just me and carl discussing the +6 or if others were involved as well.

I personally think from a gameplay perspective this works out much better than the previous version. What are your thoughts Oliver (and everyone else)?

I understand that what we are seeking here is a way to make Propaganda worthy without making it overpowered. The good and bad thing is that this pair of tech was supposed to affect the continents features, and for this reason they affect the homeland as a whole.

Of course, if we see that the idea doesn't work with what the map has become, we don't need to stick to"this is the continent tech pair", and we can change the tech to something else, like the capital effect you suggest. But if we could find a way to keep those techs as "continental" ones, this would make the map more complete. That is why I suggested the idea of making BOTH techonologies needed for the neutral continents. Another way of making those techs less vulnerable is providing the continent bonuses in subcontinents instead of forcing players to own the full contienent.

Also, we have to remember that capitals already provide an autodeploy bonus, so it's adding a second bonus to the capital.

I'd like to find a satisfactory way to make those techs working with continents. But if it doesn't work I won't keep it against everything, and will accept changing it in favour of the capital bonuses.

I see your point in wanting more continent-like bonuses. I am worried about treating neutral homelands differently than conquered homelands... it would be horrible to explain and does not make much conceptual sense.

Let me throw this out there: remember a discussion a while ago about separating the center territories into bonuses regions? They already are broken up by name, so the concept is already there. Well, what if Propaganda turned on a bonus for these regions? I would say something small, like "Propaganda: +3 per region," and with a small neutral since most of the work will be in actually holding them. Since propaganda as a concept can be used against a counties own citizens, citizens of an enemy, or citizens of a neutral country/territory, I suggest this bonus also apply to all homelands, including your own.

This suggestion does the following:
1) Creates continent bonuses, which this map has been lacking, in a way that is consistent with the concept and gameplay of the map.
2) Adds more breakable bonuses (this goes back to an earlier concern).
3) Adds incentive to expand, and not just conquer other homelands.
4) Provides additional reason to battle in the middle of the map.
5) Would be very easy to explain (I did it in 4 words).
6) There was some talk about adding subtle color to the center of the map. This would mesh well with that concept.

The only down side to this (that I can think of) is that when you kill an enemy by taking their capital, there is a good chance they will still have large stacks on a few territories in their homeland. If there are big enough stacks to make getting this bonus unrealistic, then the only benefit of having taken the capital (other than killing a player) is the +3 you get for a capital. Increasing this benefit was the original idea behind making Propaganda a capital bonus.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

I think I have found the solution. TF can bombard any tech, but can't attack it. In that way, the TF autodeploy armies can help with the research, and we avoid the problem of researching an advanced tech without the basic one.

Hummmm, I actually really like this. It does solve a lot of problems and I think would work pretty well in the gameplay. It is also simple to explain, which is important. Still would rather a smaller bonus/neutral, but I am willing to let that rest until Beta.

I like this idea as well. I've always leaned more towards the basic techs being prerequisites, but have been able to see the benefits to gameplay the other way as well.

If TSFs were only able to bombard all techs, then it would allow them to aid in the research of all techs but it would be an easy way of enforcing the basic tech prerequisite. It also solves another problem that I had in that the TSF autodeploys being able to be added to Doomsday. I think it would only require a minor adjustment to the current instructions as well (change assault to bombard).

Is there anybody that doesn't like this idea?

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

The neutral cost that we assign TSF will dictate whether it is used as an early-mid game unique bonus or as a late game method of researching advanced techs quicker (if the changes above are made). If +8/45 is used, then it definitely will be used as a mid-late game tech and its bonus will become less distinctive. The reduction in distinctiveness of the bonus though is countered by its direct access to gaining advanced research benefits quicker.

I do think that 45 is a bit high as I do like the idea of TSFs being used as a mid game attempt to gain advanced techs quicker for a surprise spike in bonus. Given Mining is 35, I would suggest that TSF not be put any higher than that. I do think that 25 is too low given its potential benefits to skip past basic techs. I would suggest 30, though 35 would be a second choice. Something in between would work as well if we care to stray off of the divisible by 5 thing. The bonus I would suggest is +6. This would still make TSFs worthwhile for a bonus while accomodating a slightly higher cost for their added basic tech skipping benefit.

I am ok with the +6/35 for Top Secret Facility. I think is a good compromise between being too expensive and not helping enough to research. 6 armies each turn are a significative boost, and a cost of 35 is affordable in the mid game.

Presuming we are going through with the TSFs only bombarding, I would hesitate to have them with a higher turn cost than SA/AR. If they're not even going to be able to research the techs themselves directly, then I would almost suggest something slightly less than the SA/AR turn cost, since they're an autodeploy bonus early/mid game. I would suggest no more than 30, but would be more inclined to suggest something like 27 (4.5 turn cost) if we care to go off of the divisble by 5 thing or 25 (4.16 turn cost) if not.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

- Doomsday Device I am ok with making it accesible from Zeppelin Strikes and TSF.

I can't remember what the issues were, but wasn't there some really good reason we had abandoned the idea of having Zeppelin Strikes being the basic tech for Doomsday?

I think it may have been that there was no way to enforce Zeppelin Strikes to be a prerequisite? If this was the case, then if we're removing the basic tech prerequisite for Doomsday to work, then I think that having Zeppelin Strikes being the basic tech would be good. I always liked it as a basic tech for Doomsday since they are both similar in function, only Doomsday is much bigger in scale.

I think the reason was because there was no way to enforce Zeppelin as a requisite to Doomsday. But if we change TSF from attack to bombard, then the problem is solved. TSF could research all Doomsday cost except for the last one, and the player would be forced to come through Zeppelins.

Then I think that making Zeppelins the basic tech requirement for Doomsday works really well. Is there anyone who disagrees with this (presuming there's no one that disagrees with TSFs bombarding too)?

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

I understand that what we are seeking here is a way to make Propaganda worthy without making it overpowered. The good and bad thing is that this pair of tech was supposed to affect the continents features, and for this reason they affect the homeland as a whole.

Of course, if we see that the idea doesn't work with what the map has become, we don't need to stick to"this is the continent tech pair", and we can change the tech to something else, like the capital effect you suggest. But if we could find a way to keep those techs as "continental" ones, this would make the map more complete. That is why I suggested the idea of making BOTH techonologies needed for the neutral continents. Another way of making those techs less vulnerable is providing the continent bonuses in subcontinents instead of forcing players to own the full contienent.

Also, we have to remember that capitals already provide an autodeploy bonus, so it's adding a second bonus to the capital.

I'd like to find a satisfactory way to make those techs working with continents. But if it doesn't work I won't keep it against everything, and will accept changing it in favour of the capital bonuses.

I see your point in wanting more continent-like bonuses. I am worried about treating neutral homelands differently than conquered homelands... it would be horrible to explain and does not make much conceptual sense.

Let me throw this out there: remember a discussion a while ago about separating the center territories into bonuses regions? They already are broken up by name, so the concept is already there. Well, what if Propaganda turned on a bonus for these regions? I would say something small, like "Propaganda: +3 per region," and with a small neutral since most of the work will be in actually holding them. Since propaganda as a concept can be used against a counties own citizens, citizens of an enemy, or citizens of a neutral country/territory, I suggest this bonus also apply to all homelands, including your own.

This suggestion does the following:
1) Creates continent bonuses, which this map has been lacking, in a way that is consistent with the concept and gameplay of the map.
2) Adds more breakable bonuses (this goes back to an earlier concern).
3) Adds incentive to expand, and not just conquer other homelands.
4) Provides additional reason to battle in the middle of the map.
5) Would be very easy to explain (I did it in 4 words).
6) There was some talk about adding subtle color to the center of the map. This would mesh well with that concept.

The only down side to this (that I can think of) is that when you kill an enemy by taking their capital, there is a good chance they will still have large stacks on a few territories in their homeland. If there are big enough stacks to make getting this bonus unrealistic, then the only benefit of having taken the capital (other than killing a player) is the +3 you get for a capital. Increasing this benefit was the original idea behind making Propaganda a capital bonus.

Oliver makes a good point about the continent based bonuses. I think this is one of the reasons I made the neutral country suggestion earlier, which is very similar to what carl proposed here.

The problem that I see with making both techs required for the neutral countries is that it would be difficult to explain in text. Otherwise I don't think it would be a bad idea. As for the subcontinent bonus idea, I presume you mean +1 per 2 homeland territories as opposed to +4 (or however it works out). If so, then I think it would work better if it was only done as full continents, as carl had pointed out earlier, it just makes more sense and provides more incentive for breaking the bonus.

I, like carl, am concerned that there needs to be proper incentive to kill someone and further incentive to kill off all of the troops surrounding their capital if they are to gain a bonus for holding the entire homeland. Consider that players will likely have ridicously huge stacks sitting on their capitals and/or guarding their homelands. I think whatever we come up with for a foreign homeland bonus needs to be appropriately large to counteract the cost of eliminating someone.

At the risk of beheading at the hands of TaCktiX, I am wondering if it wouldn't make sense to try to cram in one additional basic tech. Perhaps a slightly smaller font size could be used (the instructions are smaller and still legible, though if something in between could be used, it would be better) and if we tweaked the tech explanations it could work? One tech could be a bonus for all neutral countries and homelands.. something relatively small, like +2. Perhaps this could be 'Propaganda'. The second tech could be a large bonus per foreign capital that you own... something like +10 per foreign capital. I do realize that this is an incredibly huge bonus for a basic tech, but I also realize that the cost of killing another player is also quite high. Even at a neutral of 20-25 for this tech, the cost of killing that one player is likely to be 40-50 early game and upwards of 150 mid-late game. Killing somebody is also going to significantly weaken a player and there needs to be some big incentive to take the risk and to help the player recouperate.

And after typing all of that, I realize that this would of course place a foreign homeland worth noticably more than a national homeland. I think in the end there is a big gap between what works best conceptually and what works best for gameplay. Considering the high cost of killing off another player, I really think that there is no realistic way to have foreign homelands (or at least capitals) worth as much or less than national ones. I really don't like how strongly this goes against what makes sense conceptually, but I fear it may need to be considered lest every game on this map save for 1v1 turn into a build game. I had thought of seriously increasing the value of non-tech homeland, National Pride, and current Propaganda to make it work, but then that makes the other tech bonuses worth much less and techs way too quick to research.

I realize some of these thoughts are pretty scattered, but I hope they make some sense. I'm really torn on which direction to take this, hence how scattered the thoughts are on this one. I think in the end we will need to consider having foreign homelands worth more than national ones, in some form or another. I think if there was any way to add in the extra tech to boost conquered capital bonuses (and I intentionally change it from foreign here because I realize that we would need to disclude the 'foreign' capital that is automatically owned by a player in 2-3 player games) that it would provide an easy fix to countering the cost of killing another player. Perhaps at that point we could have Propaganda be a continent bonus that's small (+1 or +2) and affects all homelands and neutral countries or having it be a larger bonus (equal or smaller than National Pride) that affects all homelands. I'm not sure how much I like option 2 though, since I could easily see there being large stacks around the borders of homelands that are left neutral by a capital elimination.

[TaCktiX]

Alrighty, my sum-up time:

- TSFs bombarding and a +6/45, sounds good and done.
- Continent bonuses by any name: none, period, done. I made the "continents" as an understanding / simplicity device so that people can quickly and easily tell area of the map without me needing to draw up some crazy grid. And if I'm not mistaken, we were on the same tangent 8 or so pages ago and it was decided that there was too much overlap with a continent-based bonus and SC/OC, the only difference being the ease of break. Then we agreed "well, no continent bonuses, just doesn't work for it." Nothing has honestly changed since then. Furthermore, I kind've like the fact that there is only one continent bonus on the map: homelands. The rest acts organically based off of single territory or build-a-bonus methods, and it works quite well for the map in my opinion. R&C is a total break from the way every other CC map has been, there's no need to stick continents into the map at all.
- I like Propaganda as is (+2 per capital held). It acts both as a quickie bonus for yourself (since you have at least one capital), as well as an incentive to eliminate people. Taking a homeland is a waste of armies against dead neutrals, and there is no way to balance that whatsoever without making whichever researches DIDN'T counterbalance it worth crap. That last bit has been noted by yourself, Tanarri. It's more hassle than it's worth.
- National Pride I'll adjust to +6/20 (I like the even numbers, what can I say?). Homeland bonus likewise will go up to +6 for holding all.
- No more researches. Suggest it for another map on this concept (which will inevitably be worked on, no worries there). Your head will remain attached to your body if you don't bother me about it again.
- Doomsday has no prerequisite. With the change to TSF, I've modified the text on the map to allow Labs to attack it. As thematic as having Zeppelin Strikes be a prerequisite it ignores my original reasoning from a few pages back: I want the ultimate tech to be a viable option to everyone regardless of any other research they went for. That way it can serve as a natural extension of an effective Mining takeover, or as a last-ditch maneuver against someone who's got too much of the map under Open Conscription. Giving it a prerequisite, even if it creates a corresponding drop in its neutral value, nulls that versatility. 200 neutral alone is sufficient reason not to just pump armies at it while you can be gaining more elsewhere.
- SC and OC descriptions have been edited to be identical to what they actually do. The reason why not +1 per 2 was because Oliver has to hand-code each possible SC and OC continent, with only so many overrides possible. Doing it at that lower level makes the XML bloat crazy fast. As it is, there are 30,970 lines of XML just to make all the continents that make SC and OC run. For reference, the unoptimized version of Conquer Man was 14294 lines long, and we all know how that made BOB go nuts on slower computers.

Oliver, your list of To Do is a bit too...open considering the stage of development we're in. If it's not been under heavy debate recently, it's as good as done. So looking at your To Do:
- Starting Neutral Armies has always been what it has been and there's been no discussion. In any case, it'll likely get revised in beta anyway so there's no point "fixing it" now when that's extra effort.
- Deep Mining has had a total pass by our two gentlemen here, done. Fix in beta if required.
- National Pride and Propaganda: see above.
- Starting Armies for players: 3 and always has been. No discussion, no problem. Fix in beta if required.

To all, here's my general thoughts and why I'm bashing the hammer down so hard:
Anything and everything is very likely to change when this thing hits Beta. No matter how informed our opinions, how considered our mental runthroughs of possibilities, things will slip through. Only playtesting is going to balance this map. As far as we know, we're doing more harm than good by spending page after page arguing nuances that might not even come into play.

So I only have two requirements for anything on the map at this point:
- Understandable
- Internally consistent
The turn cost metric for researches has been very consistent, with a few considerations made for cases where that doesn't directly apply (which I might remind all but Propaganda is no longer being discussed). The neutral metric I applied to the map is very consistent as well: 5 neutral for the first non-homeland regions, 3 for seconds, then decreasing to one further and further out. Mines raise the neutral of any region by 1. To wrap up, for all but Beta-Testing Purposes, this map's gameplay is DONE.

[OliverFA]

It's good to see that we have finally found a solution for Top Secret Facilities to work. We'll go with the +6/45 option and during the beta we'll see if that's too high and needs to be lowered. So this tech is closed

About homelands, I have read all your comments on it, which are very well thougt and written, but I'm afraid can't comment on it now because it deserves a bit longer text and don't have much time now (but I wanted to write so the map momentum continues, even if it's a little bit) so I'll coment on it in a couple of days.

Zeppelins --> Doomsday Device thing: I see TaCktiX concerns about making the ultimate tech too costly. We can always reduce Doomsday Device cost to compensate the fact that we would be forcing players to pass through zeppelins.

- I agree that it's better not too add more researches. For one reason, because another tech needs to be balanced with all techs, and this would no doubt delay the map. But we can consider all those techs for the 8 player version.

- I am happy with TaCktiX starting armies and neutral numbers. To be honest that's a subject that I have never paid attention to, so I trust the values he has placed in the map. Those two items in the ToDo part can be closed.

- Will go back to the previous posts and read about Deep Mining. If it has really been discussed before, then there is no need to do it again. But please let me read it before.

- I think this leaves Zeppelins as the only remaining point left to be discussed. We can continue discussion from this very moment (as if I am not wrong it has been started several times and it's pretty advanced, but not finished)

Good night

[carlpgoodrich]

TaCktiX says Gameplay done

Alrighty, my sum-up time:

- TSFs bombarding and a +6/45, sounds good and done.
- Continent bonuses by any name: none, period, done. I made the "continents" as an understanding / simplicity device so that people can quickly and easily tell area of the map without me needing to draw up some crazy grid. And if I'm not mistaken, we were on the same tangent 8 or so pages ago and it was decided that there was too much overlap with a continent-based bonus and SC/OC, the only difference being the ease of break. Then we agreed "well, no continent bonuses, just doesn't work for it." Nothing has honestly changed since then. Furthermore, I kind've like the fact that there is only one continent bonus on the map: homelands. The rest acts organically based off of single territory or build-a-bonus methods, and it works quite well for the map in my opinion. R&C is a total break from the way every other CC map has been, there's no need to stick continents into the map at all.
- I like Propaganda as is (+2 per capital held). It acts both as a quickie bonus for yourself (since you have at least one capital), as well as an incentive to eliminate people. Taking a homeland is a waste of armies against dead neutrals, and there is no way to balance that whatsoever without making whichever researches DIDN'T counterbalance it worth crap. That last bit has been noted by yourself, Tanarri. It's more hassle than it's worth.
- National Pride I'll adjust to +6/20 (I like the even numbers, what can I say?). Homeland bonus likewise will go up to +6 for holding all.
- No more researches. Suggest it for another map on this concept (which will inevitably be worked on, no worries there). Your head will remain attached to your body if you don't bother me about it again.
- Doomsday has no prerequisite. With the change to TSF, I've modified the text on the map to allow Labs to attack it. As thematic as having Zeppelin Strikes be a prerequisite it ignores my original reasoning from a few pages back: I want the ultimate tech to be a viable option to everyone regardless of any other research they went for. That way it can serve as a natural extension of an effective Mining takeover, or as a last-ditch maneuver against someone who's got too much of the map under Open Conscription. Giving it a prerequisite, even if it creates a corresponding drop in its neutral value, nulls that versatility. 200 neutral alone is sufficient reason not to just pump armies at it while you can be gaining more elsewhere.
- SC and OC descriptions have been edited to be identical to what they actually do. The reason why not +1 per 2 was because Oliver has to hand-code each possible SC and OC continent, with only so many overrides possible. Doing it at that lower level makes the XML bloat crazy fast. As it is, there are 30,970 lines of XML just to make all the continents that make SC and OC run. For reference, the unoptimized version of Conquer Man was 14294 lines long, and we all know how that made BOB go nuts on slower computers.

Oliver, your list of To Do is a bit too...open considering the stage of development we're in. If it's not been under heavy debate recently, it's as good as done. So looking at your To Do:
- Starting Neutral Armies has always been what it has been and there's been no discussion. In any case, it'll likely get revised in beta anyway so there's no point "fixing it" now when that's extra effort.
- Deep Mining has had a total pass by our two gentlemen here, done. Fix in beta if required.
- National Pride and Propaganda: see above.
- Starting Armies for players: 3 and always has been. No discussion, no problem. Fix in beta if required.

To all, here's my general thoughts and why I'm bashing the hammer down so hard:
Anything and everything is very likely to change when this thing hits Beta. No matter how informed our opinions, how considered our mental runthroughs of possibilities, things will slip through. Only playtesting is going to balance this map. As far as we know, we're doing more harm than good by spending page after page arguing nuances that might not even come into play.

So I only have two requirements for anything on the map at this point:
- Understandable
- Internally consistent
The turn cost metric for researches has been very consistent, with a few considerations made for cases where that doesn't directly apply (which I might remind all but Propaganda is no longer being discussed). The neutral metric I applied to the map is very consistent as well: 5 neutral for the first non-homeland regions, 3 for seconds, then decreasing to one further and further out. Mines raise the neutral of any region by 1. To wrap up, for all but Beta-Testing Purposes, this map's gameplay is DONE.

Hummmm. At first I wasn't so sure about this since there are still a few point I disagree with. But as it is right now, this map is playable, so lets just get it to beta. Like TaCktiX said, its not perfect but there are no obvious flaws and we are probably doing more harm than good. Lets just focus on legibility and clarity.

As far as I'm concerned, everything in TaCktiX's last post can be made final.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

It's good to see that we have finally found a solution for Top Secret Facilities to work. We'll go with the +6/45 option and during the beta we'll see if that's too high and needs to be lowered. So this tech is closed

About homelands, I have read all your comments on it, which are very well thougt and written, but I'm afraid can't comment on it now because it deserves a bit longer text and don't have much time now (but I wanted to write so the map momentum continues, even if it's a little bit) so I'll coment on it in a couple of days.

Zeppelins --> Doomsday Device thing: I see TaCktiX concerns about making the ultimate tech too costly. We can always reduce Doomsday Device cost to compensate the fact that we would be forcing players to pass through zeppelins.

- I agree that it's better not too add more researches. For one reason, because another tech needs to be balanced with all techs, and this would no doubt delay the map. But we can consider all those techs for the 8 player version.

- I am happy with TaCktiX starting armies and neutral numbers. To be honest that's a subject that I have never paid attention to, so I trust the values he has placed in the map. Those two items in the ToDo part can be closed.

- Will go back to the previous posts and read about Deep Mining. If it has really been discussed before, then there is no need to do it again. But please let me read it before.

- I think this leaves Zeppelins as the only remaining point left to be discussed. We can continue discussion from this very moment (as if I am not wrong it has been started several times and it's pretty advanced, but not finished)

Good night

Zeppelins --> TaCktiX concern is that he thinks that everybody should be able to take the Doomsday device without having to go through any researches. After some thought, I would agree with TaCktiX. Thematically requiring Zeppelins makes sense, but I do think from a gameplay perspective it would work better to have the labs attack it directly.

Zeppelin Tech --> I think this is good enough as it is. I have my suspicions that once it hits beta it'll need to be dropped to 40 or so, but it's fine as it is now for Beta.