Medieval Oligarchy - end of my mapping

[theBastard]

I also like colours and miss them...

[natty dread]

There's a saying in the foundry: "function trumps form".

It means that when you have to choose between two versions, one that looks nice and one that's easy to understand, the second one should always be chosen.

[theBastard]

It's way better without the colours. It's easier to read the legend, and doesn't steal the attention from the playable area.

I like it more with colours. it looks more medieval...hm? so now is colour here, but very little...

You probably should still lower the opacity of the knight graphics a bit, to make the text stand out better.

opacity is lower.

Also, the title is getting lost in there. You need to make it stand out more. You could try it in white. With maybe a black stroke.

now text looks better I think...

Click image to enlarge.

[MarshalNey]

If you can find a way, maybe reduce/wash-out the background pictures (which I like btw) around the text areas. It won't be quite the same as a text box but the words are too difficult to read right now and maybe with some subtle touches you can still keep the background pics intact.

Marshal Ney

[theBastard]

how can I do another look of background picture around text, Marshal? I mean when I do this the background pictue will look peculiar...

the picture shows victory of Anjou dynasty over old dynaties in Hungary. and Oligarchs. therefore I add also Arpad dynasty flag at the bottom...

I can low opacity again a little, but for me is text good visible.

[MarshalNey]

Well, maybe it's my eyes that are failing, I had a similiar situation when looking at Conquer Rome.... and I guess it certainly doesn't help that I look at most of these maps just before going to bed

Anyway, I do like the picture a lot, it gives a good medieval feel. If others have no problem reading it, then I'll just have to get glasses

[theBastard]

Well, maybe it's my eyes that are failing, I had a similiar situation when looking at Conquer Rome.... and I guess it certainly doesn't help that I look at most of these maps just before going to bed

Anyway, I do like the picture a lot, it gives a good medieval feel. If others have no problem reading it, then I'll just have to get glasses

maybe I see text well because I know what it says hope you eyes are healthy

I have some questions if these things are clear:
1, there are two types of Castle lands - one with red stripes (main Oligarchs and starting positios), second without red stripes (lower Oligarchs) - but for both is valid +1 bonus for hold Castle and its region.
2, also +2 bonus for "when you hold Oligarch Castle and its region with two adjacent County Towns with their regions is also valid for both Oligarch Castles (in region with red stripes and also for in region without stripes).
3, is clear that this +2 bonus is valid also in combination?
ie player holds M. Csak castle, its region + Pozsony with its region + Zolyom with its region = +2. when he also holds Akos castle, its region + Eperjes with its region he gain another +2 because also Zolyom with its region is adjacent to Akos castle´s region.
4, maybe I could change text:
"+2 when you hold Oligarch Castle and its region with two adjacent COUNTY TOWNS WITH THEIR REGIONS" to "+2 when you hold Oligarch Castle and its region with two adjacent "REGIONS WITH THEIR COUNTY TOWNS", because County towns are not adjacent (if they are not connected by bridge...)
5, another changing of text:
"County Towns connected by brides are adjacent:" to "County towns connected by bridges are adjacent TO (opposite) REGION".

[natty dread]

You should try blue army numbers on those castle/city icons.

[theBastard]

You should try blue army numbers on those castle/city icons.

I thought to do numbers as nobodies did on Baltic Crusades map...

[theBastard]

You should try blue army numbers on those castle/city icons.

I thought to do numbers as nobodies did on Baltic Crusades map...

sorry natty, I did bad understand you. I thought you spoke about cyrcles... do not know why lol
here are all colours of numbers. also background, base layer, map layer deleted under frame.

Click image to enlarge.

[Jatekos]

There's a saying in the foundry: "function trumps form".

It means that when you have to choose between two versions, one that looks nice and one that's easy to understand, the second one should always be chosen.

It sounds as if all maps should be black and white...

The problem with the version you liked that it looked a very "cold" map, and not really attractive. The more colorful versions made earlier had warm colours, and made the map more attractive. Legibility wasn't a real problem on either maps.
Not to mention that the original picture had colours from a real medieval picture, unlike the other. Making the map a bit more legible and much less attractive is not a good deal.

[Jatekos]

It's way better without the colours. It's easier to read the legend, and doesn't steal the attention from the playable area.

I like it more with colours. it looks more medieval...hm? so now is colour here, but very little...

I could do with more. I don't think that many people would like this map with cold colours or too pale ones.
If you are unsure, you can make a poll on the background colours to see what people think.

[theBastard]

ok, guys. i think we could find any compromise.
here I post three versions of map. one is with full coloured background, second with less coloured and third with black one. which one looks better? is there any problem to read legends?

full colours

Click image to enlarge.

less colour

Click image to enlarge.

black one

Click image to enlarge.

[natty dread]

There's a saying in the foundry: "function trumps form".

It means that when you have to choose between two versions, one that looks nice and one that's easy to understand, the second one should always be chosen.

It sounds as if all maps should be black and white...

Like it or not, mapmaking is not the same as painting classes in community college. Artistic expression is not the priority here. Making a playable map is.

The problem with the version you liked that it looked a very "cold" map, and not really attractive. The more colorful versions made earlier had warm colours, and made the map more attractive. Legibility wasn't a real problem on either maps.
Not to mention that the original picture had colours from a real medieval picture, unlike the other. Making the map a bit more legible and much less attractive is not a good deal.

Legibility was a problem and still is. CC has some standards, maps are expected to be clear and easy to follow, even for, for example, people with vision problems such as colour blindness...

I understand you liking a map and want to support it, but the reality is, the map needs to be made clearer to pass graphics.

Legend/non-playable areas should not be the main focus of map graphics. Main focus should be on the playable areas, and the rest should complement it. The reality is that graphical decorations are second priority, gameplay clarity always comes first.


theBastard: blue numbers are not legible on the icons. I think making the icons lighter would help.

Also, I suggest removing the non-playable country names... they are impossible to read anyway, so I don't see them contributing to the map anyway.

I also suggest making the title stand out more. Perhaps you could try it in white or some light colour, with a dark drop shadow.

And lastly, I strongly suggest reconsidering the background graphics. There's just too much stuff crammed into the map right now, things overlapping each other, and to be honest it's making it look kinda messy... you need to priorize, figure out a balance between staying true to the medieval theme and making the map easy to read. If you really want to keep the colourful background graphics, then I suggest putting the legend texts on scraps of paper like you have on the baltic crusades. But since you have so much text, making them black&white and fading them out may still be the better solution.

[theBastard]

natty do not take hopefulnes from people so rigorous

just kidding, it is not about if I WANT TO HAVE, just I like this background picture. here is udated version. the names if other Kingdoms are kicked off, the settlements icons are lighter, the opacity of background picture is lower.

Click image to enlarge.

[natty dread]

That looks much, much better. The text is readable now. Good job.

I worry about the royal castles though. They're still very dark, maybe you should try the blue numbers on them too?
County towns could be a bit lighter still.

[theBastard]

That looks much, much better. The text is readable now. Good job.

thanks. hope this is good compromise and also jatekos will like it

I worry about the royal castles though. They're still very dark, maybe you should try the blue numbers on them too?
County towns could be a bit lighter still.

what do you think?

Click image to enlarge.

[natty dread]

The royal castles definitely need some work. Maybe lightening them a bit.

Although, at this point I think it would be better to start focusing on the gameplay and leave the graphical work for graphics shop.

[theBastard]

The royal castles definitely need some work. Maybe lightening them a bit.

Although, at this point I think it would be better to start focusing on the gameplay and leave the graphical work for graphics shop.

agree. I think the graphics needs some, but only small edits.

so have you any ideas, or notices to gameplay? do you like it or not? miss you anything?

[theBastard]

when we will spoke about gameplay, could something from this be added? some guys like some things from this, just Helix told that these +/- bonuses could be hard for gameplay (settings?)
EDIT:

Click image to enlarge.

[MarshalNey]

I can see!

The legend is now legible for me, and the icons are much better too. Great work! I know that it was a sacrifice to take away some of those warm Medieval colors, but maybe later on, you could add a Medieval picture (a naval battle perhaps?) in the lower left corner where there isn't any text.

As far as gameplay goes.... I'm pretty happy with the way the whole framework supports the concept- this map is a great thematic way of showing off Losing Conditions, and the Victory Condition is a centerpiece rather than an afterthought.

The gameplay for the icons also looks good, not hard to understand but it has some depth.

The paragraph that says
"+2 when you hold the Oligarch Castle and its region with two adjacent County Towns and their regions. County Towns connected by bridges are adjacent."
will need some work. I understand it (after a little decoding work) but I think it can be made shorter and will be easier to understand in the process.

Instead of saying, "two County Towns and their regions", why not just call that the "County Town bonus", since you already state that you need two County Towns and their regions in the icon part of the legend? Similarly, you can use the phrase, "Oligarch Castle bonus". Then you could say,
"+2 for holding the Oligarch bonus and its adjacent County Town bonus"

As for the last sentence, "County Towns connected by bridges are adjacent," I think that it is uneeded since you already explain what bridges do elsewhere. Plus, it confused me for a second, I thought it was talking about 2 County Towns being adjacent to each other via a bridge. Then I realized that it meant "adjacent to an Oligarch Castle".

So anyway, I'd cut the paragraph down to just saying "+2 for holding the Oligarch bonus and its adjacent County Town bonus" and leave off the last sentence.

I think the real work to be done in the gameplay workshop will be to determine which Oligarch Castles to use as starting positions, and where to put neutrals and how much. The gameplay framework I think is very workable.

Sorry for the long post.

Marshal Ney

[theBastard]

I can see!

The legend is now legible for me, and the icons are much better too. Great work! I know that it was a sacrifice to take away some of those warm Medieval colors, but maybe later on, you could add a Medieval picture (a naval battle perhaps?) in the lower left corner where there isn't any text.

As far as gameplay goes.... I'm pretty happy with the way the whole framework supports the concept- this map is a great thematic way of showing off Losing Conditions, and the Victory Condition is a centerpiece rather than an afterthought.

I´m glad that you like it

The gameplay for the icons also looks good, not hard to understand but it has some depth.

The paragraph that says
"+2 when you hold the Oligarch Castle and its region with two adjacent County Towns and their regions. County Towns connected by bridges are adjacent."
will need some work. I understand it (after a little decoding work) but I think it can be made shorter and will be easier to understand in the process.

Instead of saying, "two County Towns and their regions", why not just call that the "County Town bonus", since you already state that you need two County Towns and their regions in the icon part of the legend? Similarly, you can use the phrase, "Oligarch Castle bonus". Then you could say,
"+2 for holding the Oligarch bonus and its adjacent County Town bonus"

As for the last sentence, "County Towns connected by bridges are adjacent," I think that it is uneeded since you already explain what bridges do elsewhere. Plus, it confused me for a second, I thought it was talking about 2 County Towns being adjacent to each other via a bridge. Then I realized that it meant "adjacent to an Oligarch Castle".

So anyway, I'd cut the paragraph down to just saying "+2 for holding the Oligarch bonus and its adjacent County Town bonus" and leave off the last sentence.

o.k. but is here understable that adjacent County Town bonus is valid only if both held County Towns with their regions are adjacent to Oligarch Castle and its region? so no if one held County Town with its region is adjacent to Oligarch Castle and its region and second held County Town is not adjacent?

I think the real work to be done in the gameplay workshop will be to determine which Oligarch Castles to use as starting positions, and where to put neutrals and how much. The gameplay framework I think is very workable.

there are 14 Oligarch Castles, but if it will be possible we could save history so close to reality.

Sorry for the long post.

Marshal Ney

more often

[Jatekos]

That looks much, much better. The text is readable now. Good job.

thanks. hope this is good compromise and also jatekos will like it

It is a huge compromise, but at least you did not pick that horrible 3rd version (the "black one").

[theBastard]

It is a huge compromise,

it is not only compromise it is how Marshal wrote sacrifice
but realy at the firts is care about gameplay, visible legends and so on.

but at least you did not pick that horrible 3rd version (the "black one").

never! therefore I did everything what I´m able to have some colours here...

[theBastard]

guys, sorry for totaly stupid question, but I can not find where I can create design brief. so where?