Egypt's Revolution (Poll added)

[saxitoxin]

By the way I wonder how many Palestinians were killed by Israels bombing and blockading of Gaza?

There were regrettably a lot of them. Such is the nature of war.

Palestinian deaths, oh well regrettable result of war. Israeli deaths; EVIDENCE OF ARAB ATTEMPTS AT GENOCIDE!

This pretty much makes clear GabonX's line of reasoning.

Gabon, are you Jewish? I'm Jewish, and I've talked to plenty of fellow Jews, Israelis, Palestinians, Arab-Israelis, (you name it) about this matter, and yet not one of them has portrayed such a fucked-up worldview as yours, sir.

Whether or not Gabs is Jewish I highly doubt he has a Zionist worldview because he has some irrational hatred of Arabs. One can appreciate a reasonable argument without agreeing with it and Gabs has enunciated clear logic that would support a utilitarian theory of Zionism.

While I think disestablishment of Israel would be for the best, by and large everything that's happened - IMO - has been an out-of-control roller coaster set in motion by British recklessness in terminating their legal obligations in Palestine, so it's very difficult for me to assign moral responsibility on Israel for much, though practical responsibility may be, depending on the situation, a different question.

It's funny, these days, to imagine what is now such a small and inconsequential little country just 60 years ago had a firm grip over most of the Middle East. Now it's just a small, overcrowded little island province of the EU and the world has, more than anyone, Dwight Eisenhower to thank for that, IMO. I'll set aside my virulent lambasting of U.S. foreign policy for a moment to tip my worn-backwards, pre-fatigued, FOSSIL fitted baseball cap to him.

[Woodruff]

Dear Mubarak: http://i.imgur.com/KRP9C.jpg

[Ray Rider]

By the way I wonder how many Palestinians were killed by Israels bombing and blockading of Gaza?

There were regrettably a lot of them. Such is the nature of war.

Palestinian deaths, oh well regrettable result of war. Israeli deaths; EVIDENCE OF ARAB ATTEMPTS AT GENOCIDE!

This pretty much makes clear GabonX's line of reasoning.

Gabon, are you Jewish? I'm Jewish, and I've talked to plenty of fellow Jews, Israelis, Palestinians, Arab-Israelis, (you name it) about this matter, and yet not one of them has portrayed such a fucked-up worldview as yours, sir.

Whether or not Gabs is Jewish I highly doubt he has a Zionist worldview because he has some irrational hatred of Arabs. One can appreciate a reasonable argument without agreeing with it and Gabs has enunciated clear logic that would support a utilitarian theory of Zionism.

Actually you both seem to be on the opposite spectrum from Gabon, so of course you are going to consider Gabon's views to be extreme, and Gabon is going to see your views as extreme. There's nothing very surprising about that.

Speaking of Gaza, there was another rocket launched at Israel from there yesterday which struck next to where a wedding was being held, resulting in an evacuation.




However, back on topic:
The chances for democracy and liberalism are different in every country. Tunisia has a good chance because there is a strong middle class and a weak Islamist movement. But in Egypt look at the numbers in the latest Pew poll.

In Egypt, 30 percent like Hizballah (66 percent don't). 49 percent are favorable toward Hamas (48 percent are negative); and 20 percent smile (72 percent frown) at al-Qaida. Roughly speaking, one-fifth of Egyptians applaud the most extreme Islamist terrorist group, while around one-third back revolutionary Islamists abroad. This doesn't tell us what proportion of Egyptians want an Islamist government at home, but it is an indicator.

In Egypt, 82 percent want stoning for those who commit adultery; 77 percent would like to see whippings and hands cut off for robbery; and 84 percent favor the death penalty for any Muslim who changes his religion.

Asked if they supported "modernizers" or "Islamists" only 27 percent said modernizers while 59 percent said Islamists:

Is this meaningless? Last December 20 I wrote that these "horrifying figures in Egypt...one day might be cited to explain an Islamist revolution there....What this analysis also shows is that a future Islamist revolution in Egypt and Jordan is quite possible.

[BigBallinStalin]

quote="GabonX"]

By the way I wonder how many Palestinians were killed by Israels bombing and blockading of Gaza?------
There were regrettably a lot of them. Such is the nature of war.

Palestinian deaths, oh well regrettable result of war. Israeli deaths; EVIDENCE OF ARAB ATTEMPTS AT GENOCIDE!

This pretty much makes clear GabonX's line of reasoning.

Gabon, are you Jewish? I'm Jewish, and I've talked to plenty of fellow Jews, Israelis, Palestinians, Arab-Israelis, (you name it) about this matter, and yet not one of them has portrayed such a fucked-up worldview as yours, sir.

Whether or not Gabs is Jewish I highly doubt he has a Zionist worldview because he has some irrational hatred of Arabs. One can appreciate a reasonable argument without agreeing with it and Gabs has enunciated clear logic that would support a utilitarian theory of Zionism.

Actually you both seem to be on the opposite spectrum from Gabon, so of course you are going to consider Gabon's views to be extreme, and Gabon is going to see your views as extreme. There's nothing very surprising about that.

Speaking of Gaza, there was another rocket launched at Israel from there yesterday which struck next to where a wedding was being held, resulting in an evacuation.

When compared to most people's views who've actually experienced what we're talking about and compared to people who are reasonably knowledgeable on the issue, GabonX's views are still extreme and unjustifiably place all blame on the Arabs for all of Israel's problems.

Ray Rider, for every picture like that, someone can present a vice-versa version, so spare us that crap.

kthx

[BigBallinStalin]

However, back on topic:
The chances for democracy and liberalism are different in every country. Tunisia has a good chance because there is a strong middle class and a weak Islamist movement. But in Egypt look at the numbers in the latest Pew poll.

In Egypt, 30 percent like Hizballah (66 percent don't). 49 percent are favorable toward Hamas (48 percent are negative); and 20 percent smile (72 percent frown) at al-Qaida. Roughly speaking, one-fifth of Egyptians applaud the most extreme Islamist terrorist group, while around one-third back revolutionary Islamists abroad. This doesn't tell us what proportion of Egyptians want an Islamist government at home, but it is an indicator.

In Egypt, 82 percent want stoning for those who commit adultery; 77 percent would like to see whippings and hands cut off for robbery; and 84 percent favor the death penalty for any Muslim who changes his religion.

Asked if they supported "modernizers" or "Islamists" only 27 percent said modernizers while 59 percent said Islamists:

Is this meaningless? Last December 20 I wrote that these "horrifying figures in Egypt...one day might be cited to explain an Islamist revolution there....What this analysis also shows is that a future Islamist revolution in Egypt and Jordan is quite possible.

Such polls only factor in a biased sample. By biased I mean the sample isn't of all of them, we don't even know the total they measured, we don't know if the views were recorded only in Cairo or on the internet or both, etc. (Do you think the rioters had time to participate in a poll?)

There are so many factors that go into such things, that in the end, such "facts" are just an outright misrepresentation of the truth.


You're best insights into a government and such chances are consulting with expert advisors on Egypt's political landscape--something that we don't have access to. I'd rather speculate and give good reasons, then rely on a false statistic.

[Woodruff]

Appropriate political cartoon: http://i.imgur.com/xvRTw.jpg

[BigBallinStalin]

Appropriate political cartoon: http://i.imgur.com/xvRTw.jpg

Hm, that's pretty good.

[PLAYER57832]

It is a funny cartoon, but I think saying that Islamic influence has to equal Theocracy might be almost as wrong as saying that of Christianity. And, that viewing it as such in the west might push them into a true Theocracy.

[Woodruff]

It is a funny cartoon, but I think saying that Islamic influence has to equal Theocracy might be almost as wrong as saying that of Christianity. And, that viewing it as such in the west might push them into a true Theocracy.

I don't find it likely at all that how the West view things will push them one way or the other.

(It's a cartoon - try not to over-analyze.)

[PLAYER57832]

It is a funny cartoon, but I think saying that Islamic influence has to equal Theocracy might be almost as wrong as saying that of Christianity. And, that viewing it as such in the west might push them into a true Theocracy.

I don't find it likely at all that how the West view things will push them one way or the other.

(It's a cartoon - try not to over-analyze.)

I agree, the cartoon is funny.

What sparked my comment was recent coverage of the events in Egypt. Egyptians might not care too much about US/western opinion, except in the negative (our name on the tear gas cannisters and fighter jets did not go over well). However, the argument is that the US has often backed the "wrong leader" in the past. Maybe we did here for too long as well. Then, the people rebell against not just our politics, but our political system. When the main proponents of Democracy are the ones supporting "corrupt despots" (slight exaggeration, but only in some cases), it becomes easy to convince people that another system, often theocracy, is the real answer.

Ironically enough, this is part of what the religious right is doing in this country. They look at the ills in our country and offer up their "solution".. return to religion.

The answer, in both cases, is to support moderation along with meeting people's "every day" needs. In Egypt, many young men cannot afford to marry, despite having degrees and even "good" jobs. Here, many people cannot go to the doctor or are seeing their homes go to the bank. A different scale, but our "protests" are also more mild. Yet, they are related.

[Phatscotty]

With the Muslim Brotherhood getting involved in the riots, there's no way we should support the rioters. Some are doing it in good faith because they want a democracy, but that's not what they're going to get once the radical Muslim group moves into the power vacuum caused by the possible overthrow. It will be much better for the world to have a dictator that's friendly to the western world than having another dictatorship like Iran. From what I know about the overthrow of the Shah, this shows all the similarities.

The Brotherhood, along with the unions...

The American AFL-CIO , the International Confederation of Trade Unions and the communist controlled World Federation of Trade Unions are all throwing their weight behind the unfolding Egyptian revolution.

A Jan. 30 press release announcing the formation of the FETU - an alternative to the government-run Egyptian Federation of Trade Unions... stated that "the labor movement is in the heart and soul of the Egyptian Peoples' revolution and its emphasis on the support for the six requirements as demanded by the Egyptian People's Revolution."

The same day, organizers held a press conference in Tahrir Square, announcing the FETU and the "formation of committees in all factories and enterprises to protect, defend them and to set the date for the general strike."

According to Sharan Burrow, general secretary of the International Trade Union Confederation, "This is a hugely important step for all Egyptians, who have for so long been denied the right to democratic representation at work."

"Independent unions, which the regime refused to recognize, have organized thousands of local strikes, sit-ins and protests in recent years, and have been a moving force behind the massive mobilization of Egypt's people that we have been witnessing in recent days,"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_889oBKkNU Obama in Cairo 18 months ago


http://newzeal.blogspot.com/2011/02/int ... ptian.html

[Phatscotty]

Pamela Geller gave an excellent interview to FrontPageMag and I wanted to quote just a couple of things here. Pamela DETAILS Muslim Brotherhood influence IN THE WHITE HOUSE! Please read the full article here:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atla ... rhood.html

Excerpts:

PAMELA GELLER: The first thing we need to realize is that the Muslim Brotherhood operates in the United States under a variety of names and organizational umbrellas. Technically, there is no “Muslim Brotherhood” in the United States. But the Muslim American Society (MAS), the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) and others are – according to a document captured in a raid and released by law enforcement in 2007 during the Holy Land Foundation Hamas funding trial) – Brotherhood-linked organizations. ...

That same captured document explains that the Muslim Brotherhood’s mission in the U.S. is “a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and ‘sabotaging’ its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions.”

FP: And people with ties to these organizations are involved with the Obama Administration, right?

Geller: Yes they are, Jamie, in various ways. On the first day of his presidency, the President showed an eagerness to be friendly toward the Brotherhood: he chose Ingrid Mattson, president of ISNA to offer a prayer at the National Cathedral during inaugural festivities on January 20, 2009.

Superficially, Obama’s choice was understandable: Ingrid Mattson was a Canadian convert to Islam who carefully cultivated the image of a moderate spokesperson. But ISNA has even admitted ties to the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas, which calls itself “one of the wings of Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine.”


In June 2009, Obama appointed a Muslim, Kareem Shora, to the Homeland Security Advisory Council. Shora had been executive director of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, a group that had generally opposed anti-terror efforts since 9/11 – as have all the Muslim Brotherhood-linked groups in the U.S. But more worrisome was Obama’s appointment of another Muslim, Arif Alikhan, to be Assistant Secretary for Policy Development at the Department of Homeland Security. Alikhan is affiliated with the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC), which is another highly deceptive Brotherhood-linked group.


--------------------------------------------------
So can there really be any question that the Obama administration is facilitating, even perhaps orchestrating events in Egypt? Wouldn't the Muslim Brotherhood LOVE to see Israel-Friendly Mubarak toppled? And isn't Obama hugely sympathetic to that point of view as well?

Doesn't this explain why Obama did NOT support the protesters in Iran? Because they were protesting a regime that's hostile to Israel. He wants to keep hostile regimes in place. Then he turns right around and like the good little Communist he is, he DEMANDS DEMOCRACY in Egypt! Knowing full well (as all Communists do) that those demands will topple Mubarak and put the Israel-hating Muslim Brotherhood in charge.

The Muslim Brotherhood is already telling Egyptians to prepare for war with Israel.

A leading member of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt told the Arabic-language Iranian news network Al-Alam on Monday that he would like to see the Egyptian people prepare for war against Israel

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/Isr ... el%27.html

[Phatscotty]

Pamela Geller gave an excellent interview to FrontPageMag and I wanted to quote just a couple of things here. Pamela DETAILS Muslim Brotherhood influence IN THE WHITE HOUSE! Please read the full article here:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atla ... rhood.html

Excerpts:

PAMELA GELLER: The first thing we need to realize is that the Muslim Brotherhood operates in the United States under a variety of names and organizational umbrellas. Technically, there is no “Muslim Brotherhood” in the United States. But the Muslim American Society (MAS), the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) and others are – according to a document captured in a raid and released by law enforcement in 2007 during the Holy Land Foundation Hamas funding trial) – Brotherhood-linked organizations. ...

That same captured document explains that the Muslim Brotherhood’s mission in the U.S. is “a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and ‘sabotaging’ its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions.”

FP: And people with ties to these organizations are involved with the Obama Administration, right?

Geller: Yes they are, Jamie, in various ways. On the first day of his presidency, the President showed an eagerness to be friendly toward the Brotherhood: he chose Ingrid Mattson, president of ISNA to offer a prayer at the National Cathedral during inaugural festivities on January 20, 2009.

Superficially, Obama’s choice was understandable: Ingrid Mattson was a Canadian convert to Islam who carefully cultivated the image of a moderate spokesperson. But ISNA has even admitted ties to the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas, which calls itself “one of the wings of Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine.”


In June 2009, Obama appointed a Muslim, Kareem Shora, to the Homeland Security Advisory Council. Shora had been executive director of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, a group that had generally opposed anti-terror efforts since 9/11 – as have all the Muslim Brotherhood-linked groups in the U.S. But more worrisome was Obama’s appointment of another Muslim, Arif Alikhan, to be Assistant Secretary for Policy Development at the Department of Homeland Security. Alikhan is affiliated with the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC), which is another highly deceptive Brotherhood-linked group.


--------------------------------------------------
So can there really be any question that the Obama administration is facilitating, even perhaps orchestrating events in Egypt? Wouldn't the Muslim Brotherhood LOVE to see Israel-Friendly Mubarak toppled? And isn't Obama hugely sympathetic to that point of view as well?

Doesn't this explain why Obama did NOT support the protesters in Iran? Because they were protesting a regime that's hostile to Israel. He wants to keep hostile regimes in place. Then he turns right around and like the good little Communist he is, he DEMANDS DEMOCRACY in Egypt! Knowing full well (as all Communists do) that those demands will topple Mubarak and put the Israel-hating Muslim Brotherhood in charge.

The Muslim Brotherhood is already telling Egyptians to prepare for war with Israel.

A leading member of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt told the Arabic-language Iranian news network Al-Alam on Monday that he would like to see the Egyptian people prepare for war against Israel

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/Isr ... el%27.html

[PLAYER57832]

I see, so we are now supposed to exclude anyone who has any ties to Islam as "harmful terrorists" or.. what, exactly is it that you are attempting to assert here.

[thegreekdog]

Sorry for the repeat - for some reason the merging isn't working out well.

[Phatscotty]

I see, so we are now supposed to exclude anyone who has any ties to Islam as "harmful terrorists" or.. what, exactly is it that you are attempting to assert here.

First, show me where anyone said we should exclude anyone who has any ties to Islam...

Geezus Player

[saxitoxin]

THREE PAGES AGO the former logic routine of this program stated, within days, pro-Mubarak or Mubarak-friendly successor activists would show-up with small arms (transferred to them with U.S. assistance).

While, in hindsight, this may seem like common sense, at the time it was not and there were wild celebrations at the neutrality of the Army and the impending victory of the anti-Mubarak/Obama activists.

HOWEVER, there have been no obeisances or genuflections given to the control program for correct precognition. The control program is vain with an irritable temper and demands obeisances.

OBEISANCES!

END OF LINE

[BigBallinStalin]

Check it out:

The Egyptian Revolution gets more violent (or get a radical government), and the Suez Canal shuts down.

What happens to gas prices?


HWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, BOY. Get ur oil futures now, fellas.

[PLAYER57832]

I see, so we are now supposed to exclude anyone who has any ties to Islam as "harmful terrorists" or.. what, exactly is it that you are attempting to assert here.

First, show me where anyone said we should exclude anyone who has any ties to Islam...

Of course you haven't been so blatant. You just bring up any organization that does have ties to Islam, represent Islamists as being a "terrorist threat".

Ironically enough, the Muslim Brotherhood is not on any of our watch lists. They once did embrace violance.. the specific act of overthrowing the Egyption government. However, that has not been the case for decades. They now are probably less a threat to us than many Christian right groups.

[saxitoxin]

I see, so we are now supposed to exclude anyone who has any ties to Islam as "harmful terrorists" or.. what, exactly is it that you are attempting to assert here.

First, show me where anyone said we should exclude anyone who has any ties to Islam...

Of course you haven't been so blatant. You just bring up any organization that does have ties to Islam, represent Islamists as being a "terrorist threat".

Ironically enough, the Muslim Brotherhood is not on any of our watch lists. They once did embrace violance.. the specific act of overthrowing the Egyption government. However, that has not been the case for decades. They now are probably less a threat to us than many Christian right groups.

1. the Muslim Brotherhood is an Egypt-based, international organization with branches in multiple countries
2. the Muslim Brotherhood has identified Hamas as their Palestinian chapter
3. Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organization by the EU, US, Japan and Canada

None of these statements are an argument by me one way or the other against justification of Hamas' activities against Zionism, simply an exercise in fact-checking.

General Note to No Poster in Particular: Before replying to this post, please consider that it is not necessary to reply to every post if you don't have substantive, educated or fact-based information or opinion to add in response. It is permissible to simply choose not reply to some posts when there is nothing to be gained by adding convulsions and hysterical ranting.

END OF LINE

[PLAYER57832]

I see, so we are now supposed to exclude anyone who has any ties to Islam as "harmful terrorists" or.. what, exactly is it that you are attempting to assert here.

First, show me where anyone said we should exclude anyone who has any ties to Islam...

Of course you haven't been so blatant. You just bring up any organization that does have ties to Islam, represent Islamists as being a "terrorist threat".

Ironically enough, the Muslim Brotherhood is not on any of our watch lists. They once did embrace violance.. the specific act of overthrowing the Egyption government. However, that has not been the case for decades. They now are probably less a threat to us than many Christian right groups.

1. the Muslim Brotherhood is an Egypt-based, international organization with branches in multiple countries
2. the Muslim Brotherhood has identified Hamas as their Palestinian chapter
3. Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organization by the EU, US, Japan and Canada

None of these statements are an argument by me one way or the other against justification of Hamas' activities against Zionism, simply an exercise in fact-checking.

General Note to No Poster in Particular: Before replying to this post, please consider that it is not necessary to reply to every post if you don't have substantive, educated or fact-based information or opinion to add in response. It is permissible to simply choose not reply to some posts when there is nothing to be gained by adding convulsions and hysterical ranting.

END OF LINE

nothing you have said is in any way illuminating.

they are anti-zionist? yes. So what?

And, no, your assertion of ties to Hammas are, while not absolutely incorrect, over-stated and taken out of context. That said, you know this anyway, but choose to distort information.

[saxitoxin]

I see, so we are now supposed to exclude anyone who has any ties to Islam as "harmful terrorists" or.. what, exactly is it that you are attempting to assert here.

First, show me where anyone said we should exclude anyone who has any ties to Islam...

Of course you haven't been so blatant. You just bring up any organization that does have ties to Islam, represent Islamists as being a "terrorist threat".

Ironically enough, the Muslim Brotherhood is not on any of our watch lists. They once did embrace violance.. the specific act of overthrowing the Egyption government. However, that has not been the case for decades. They now are probably less a threat to us than many Christian right groups.

1. the Muslim Brotherhood is an Egypt-based, international organization with branches in multiple countries
2. the Muslim Brotherhood has identified Hamas as their Palestinian chapter
3. Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organization by the EU, US, Japan and Canada

None of these statements are an argument by me one way or the other against justification of Hamas' activities against Zionism, simply an exercise in fact-checking.

General Note to No Poster in Particular: Before replying to this post, please consider that it is not necessary to reply to every post if you don't have substantive, educated or fact-based information or opinion to add in response. It is permissible to simply choose not reply to some posts when there is nothing to be gained by adding convulsions and hysterical ranting.

END OF LINE

nothing you have said is in any way illuminating.

they are anti-zionist? yes. So what?

And, no, your assertion of ties to Hammas are, while not absolutely incorrect, over-stated and taken out of context. That said, you know this anyway, but choose to distort information.

so to recap:

(1) Player said: Muslim Brotherhood has no ties to terrorism and is not on any watch list
(2) Saxi said: In fact, Muslim Brotherhood Gaza chapter is a proscribed terrorist organization on multiple nations watch lists.
(3) Player said: "I knew all that!" + [various name calling / fist-shaking]

END OF LINE

[Phatscotty]

I see, so we are now supposed to exclude anyone who has any ties to Islam as "harmful terrorists" or.. what, exactly is it that you are attempting to assert here.

First, show me where anyone said we should exclude anyone who has any ties to Islam...

...the Muslim Brotherhood is not on any of our watch lists. They once did embrace violance.. the specific act of overthrowing the Egyption government. However, that has not been the case for decades. They now are probably less a threat to us than many Christian right groups.

So, is there anyway that the Muslim Brotherhood will kill Mubarak? Should they? Do you think the Muslim Brotherhood is trying to kill Mubarak? no?

[Iliad]

I see, so we are now supposed to exclude anyone who has any ties to Islam as "harmful terrorists" or.. what, exactly is it that you are attempting to assert here.

First, show me where anyone said we should exclude anyone who has any ties to Islam...

...the Muslim Brotherhood is not on any of our watch lists. They once did embrace violance.. the specific act of overthrowing the Egyption government. However, that has not been the case for decades. They now are probably less a threat to us than many Christian right groups.

So, is there anyway that the Muslim Brotherhood will kill Mubarak? Should they? Do you think the Muslim Brotherhood is trying to kill Mubarak? no?

I know you're pretending to be presenting deep and incisive questions, but it's just ill-disguised Islamophobia.

[PLAYER57832]

so to recap:

(1) Player said: Muslim Brotherhood has no ties to terrorism and is not on any watch list
(2) Saxi said: In fact, Muslim Brotherhood Gaza chapter is a proscribed terrorist organization on multiple nations watch lists.
(3) Player said: "I knew all that!" + [various name calling / fist-shaking]

END OF LINE

You accuse me of not reading and then proceed to distort what I said.. typical of you.

I never said the Muslim Brotherhood has no ties to terrorism. I said it is not a terrorist organization now and is not on the US watch list. Also those "ties" to Hammas have to do with Hammas being the duly elected power in Palestine. We may not like the choice, but denying the Palestinien people thier votes is to dismiss democracy.

As for the rest... if you have to lie, you have more than lost. Too bad. once in a while, months ago, you actually had some decent things to say. For some reason you have decided now its "attack player at all costs". I guess I must be saying something right to have engendered such a reaction.