Abortion

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Abortion is...

 
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Phatscotty
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Re: Abortion

Post by Phatscotty »

Woodruff wrote:

Why do you believe he is an ideological opponent of mine in this position?
I don't. What you missed is that I was saying he is an ideological opponent of mine.
Phatscotty wrote:I thought that was one of the first things you need to do before you can form your own?
Woodruff wrote:In order to form an opinion of my own, I must understand the insane ramblings of the man?
Phatscotty wrote:I understand his position, 100%. I don't understand your question or it's relation to insanity.
Woodruff wrote:I simply asked for you to explain his position on the subject. However, rather than doing so, you question my ability to form an opinion on the subject. This leads me to believe you not only don't understand my question nor it's relation to insanity, but you don't even understand his position.
His position is a pro-life position. I don't know how much further you want me to go on his position. I don't even know your position here. Chill
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comic boy
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Re: Abortion

Post by comic boy »

A specialist business ( Abortion Clinic ) that does not rely on government handouts and makes a healthy profit , Capitalist dream , Night Strike must love it, but wait :o :o :o
Hypocrite much !
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Night Strike
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Re: Abortion

Post by Night Strike »

comic boy wrote:A specialist business ( Abortion Clinic ) that does not rely on government handouts and makes a healthy profit , Capitalist dream , Night Strike must love it, but wait :o :o :o
Hypocrite much !
I thought the whole human life issue trumped all business issues for liberals. Apparently not. Sorry, but I can't support a multi-million dollar business whose only source of income is killing unborn humans.
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Army of GOD
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Re: Abortion

Post by Army of GOD »

Night Strike wrote:
comic boy wrote:A specialist business ( Abortion Clinic ) that does not rely on government handouts and makes a healthy profit , Capitalist dream , Night Strike must love it, but wait :o :o :o
Hypocrite much !
I thought the whole human life issue trumped all business issues for liberals. Apparently not. Sorry, but I can't support a multi-million dollar business whose only source of income is killing unborn humans.
But multi-billion dollar business who kill born humans. Dat's ok.
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Woodruff
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Re: Abortion

Post by Woodruff »

rdsrds2120 wrote:I don't think that the reason the school has to monitor whether they take a Tylenol is due to their intellectual capability
Then what do you believe is the reason (other than abject fear of being sued, of course)?
rdsrds2120 wrote:and the rules for those two things are generally run by two different people.
If the school is involved in the transport of the child to a clinic, then the school board is involved. They're the ones also making the Tylenol decision.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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comic boy
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Re: Abortion

Post by comic boy »

Night Strike wrote:
comic boy wrote:A specialist business ( Abortion Clinic ) that does not rely on government handouts and makes a healthy profit , Capitalist dream , Night Strike must love it, but wait :o :o :o
Hypocrite much !
I thought the whole human life issue trumped all business issues for liberals. Apparently not. Sorry, but I can't support a multi-million dollar business whose only source of income is killing unborn humans.
Its admirable that you can see that making money is not the only consideration in life , given your past record though it does make you a huge hypocrite to only oppose brute capitalism when it clashes with one of your other views :cry:
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PLAYER57832
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Re: Abortion

Post by PLAYER57832 »

Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:Right now, all of the options (except for the kittens one ♥) are all bias towards the negative pits of abortion.
"Abortion is abortion" isn't negative.

As for the rest...while I disagree personally, I can at least understand someone considering it homicide...though not murder except in certain circumstances. But slavery? I don't get it...who is the slave in this instance?
Phatscotty wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Rick Santorum argues that abortion a kind of/equal to/ as bad as slavery. Thoughts?

I'll add other options if you can argue for their presence.
I certainly understand why he would say that, but I don't agree.
Please explain it then, for those of us who are not insane enough to make the connection. Thanks.
What, beacuse It's impossible to understand an ideological opponents positions? I thought that was one of the first things you need to do before you can form your own? I understand his position, 100%. I don't understand your question or it's relation to insanity.
As much as I hate to ;) , I have to agree with Phattscotty here. I absolutely don't agree with Santorum, but I do understand why he says it is akin to slavery. That is, I have heard the argument, comprehend it, but dismiss it as not relevant. The basic thrust is that slavery and abortion are both allowed because we do not classify those individuals as fully human. I reject this because while a black (or any other racial/ethnic group) is absolutely human, there is biological/scientific reason to say a very early fetus does not yet qualify. Those who believe differently do so for faith/religious reasons. However, we should note that some even consider sperm and unfertilized eggs "human" as well. Religion and science have different measures of evidence.
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Re: Abortion

Post by PLAYER57832 »

Woodruff wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:I don't think that the reason the school has to monitor whether they take a Tylenol is due to their intellectual capability
Then what do you believe is the reason (other than abject fear of being sued, of course)?
rdsrds2120 wrote:and the rules for those two things are generally run by two different people.
If the school is involved in the transport of the child to a clinic, then the school board is involved. They're the ones also making the Tylenol decision.
I have to step in here, because as insane as this sounds on the surface, there are reasons why it came about.

First, in many states that tylenol bit is not entirely correct. That is, technically NO ONE other than someone authorized to write prescriptions is allowed to give ANY medication, even over the counter. As an EMT, for example, I could not administer aspirin or tylenol (law might have changed in light of recent heart attack findings) . I could, however set it down where the patient might him'herself take it (or grab the bottle of medication for the patient, open the bottle at their direction, get them water... even hand it to a family member to give it, but not put it in their mouth myself). This is why a girl who gave another girl tylenol for her cramps was disciplined by the school. She truly was violating the law. That some schools do let nurses give over-the-counter drugs is either a legal "grey area" or a special exception to the set state law (states vary).

Parents are traditionally allowed to make decisions for their children until they reach majority age. Normally that is 18, but marriage is another reason that a child (especially a girl) is no longer under control of the parents. A third reason is traditionally pregnancy.

That exception might not seem to make sense, except in the context of history. You can say that by "letting" their daughter get pregnant, the parents have given up their right to decide. But it also gets back to that whole concept of marriage and getting pregnant more or less automatically moving one into the world of "adulthood". Legally , there is a three-way legal conflict. First you have the pregnant girl's gaurdian's right to decide for her. This conflicts with the girl's own right to decide the fate of her own child. To muddy it further, you have the rights of the father at times as well. (states vary a bit on that, particularly when the girl is a minor).

Beyond this, many states are changing the legal age for medical decisions. In PA, it is now 14. At that age, a child who is not disabled is able to make their own medical decisions. Parents are not allowed into doctor's offices with their children unless the child specifically requests it (and many doctors still want to meet with the child independently for a bit anyway). My friends found this out when they suspected their son was taking drugs and wanted him tested. They could not authorize the tests or see the results without the son's permission. The problem is that parents are still responsible fully for the support of their kids. And.. that gets into another side topic, so perhaps another thread ;)
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Re: Abortion

Post by PLAYER57832 »

Night Strike wrote:
comic boy wrote:A specialist business ( Abortion Clinic ) that does not rely on government handouts and makes a healthy profit , Capitalist dream , Night Strike must love it, but wait :o :o :o
Hypocrite much !
I thought the whole human life issue trumped all business issues for liberals. Apparently not. Sorry, but I can't support a multi-million dollar business whose only source of income is killing unborn humans.
Nice try at distorting the issue... AGAIN.

You can try to simplify, exlcude real life as much as you wish, but if you are going to demand that others follow your standards, then you had best take the time to truly understand what decisions others are really and truly making.

Do you know WHY so many "abortion only" clinics exist? It is not profit. It is because so many other medical practices now refuse to do abortions due to liability and political issues. Beyond that, there is a move toward specialization in ALL medical practices. Why is this any different?

Your complaint is much like a Jehovah's witness complaining about for profit blood banks. The issue is not money, it is whether you have the right to push your morals onto other people.

And please, don't try to claim that I am some kind of abortion-lover or some idiocy. The question is the law, and whether the law has a place in this decision, not what I like or do not like.
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jimboston
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Re: Abortion

Post by jimboston »

comic boy wrote:A specialist business ( Abortion Clinic ) that does not rely on government handouts and makes a healthy profit , Capitalist dream , Night Strike must love it, but wait :o :o :o
Hypocrite much !
Actually some do rely on Gov't handouts.
PLAYER57832
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Re: Abortion

Post by PLAYER57832 »

jimboston wrote:
comic boy wrote:A specialist business ( Abortion Clinic ) that does not rely on government handouts and makes a healthy profit , Capitalist dream , Night Strike must love it, but wait :o :o :o
Hypocrite much !
Actually some do rely on Gov't handouts.
No, federal funding cannot be used for abortions, except in very narrow situations.

Federal and state funding is used for insurance that may provide abortion (often mandated coverage by states), but again, understand that includes removeal of a dead fetus, situations where the woman's life is in danger, etc.
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comic boy
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Re: Abortion

Post by comic boy »

jimboston wrote:
comic boy wrote:A specialist business ( Abortion Clinic ) that does not rely on government handouts and makes a healthy profit , Capitalist dream , Night Strike must love it, but wait :o :o :o
Hypocrite much !
Actually some do rely on Gov't handouts.
Oh my , how devastating that is to my general point :lol:
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PLAYER57832
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Re: Abortion

Post by PLAYER57832 »

jimboston wrote:
comic boy wrote:A specialist business ( Abortion Clinic ) that does not rely on government handouts and makes a healthy profit , Capitalist dream , Night Strike must love it, but wait :o :o :o
Hypocrite much !
Actually some do rely on Gov't handouts.

Federal funding is limited by the Hyde amendment. States vary in what they allow funded (along with rules about abortions in general). Note that the exceptions for federal funding are pretty consistant with most here, even among those who are "anti legal abortion" in general.
Passed by Congress in 1976, the Hyde Amendment excludes abortion from the comprehensive health care services provided to low-income people by the federal government through Medicaid. Congress has made some exceptions to the funding ban, which have varied over the years. At present, the federal Medicaid program mandates abortion funding in cases of rape or incest, as well as when a pregnant woman's life is endangered by a physical disorder, illness, or injury.

Most states have followed the federal government's lead in restricting public funding for abortion. Currently only seventeen states fund abortions for low-income women on the same or similar terms as other pregnancy-related and general health services. (See map.) Four of these states provide funding voluntarily (HI, MD, NY,1 and WA); in thirteen, courts interpreting their state constitutions have declared broad and independent protection for reproductive choice and have ordered nondiscriminatory public funding of abortion (AK, AZ, CA, CT, IL, MA, MN, MT, NJ, NM, OR, VT, and WV).2 Thirty-two of the remaining states pay for abortions for low-income women in cases of life-endangering circumstances, rape, or incest, as mandated by federal Medicaid law.3 (A handful of these states pay as well in cases of fetal impairment or when the pregnancy threatens "severe" health problems, but none provides reimbursement for all medically necessary abortions for low-income women.) Finally, one state (SD) fails even to comply with the Hyde Amendment, instead providing coverage only for lifesaving abortions.

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Neoteny
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Re: Abortion

Post by Neoteny »

Mr_Adams wrote:
Mr_Adams wrote:At some point in this thread, somebody asked when gametes become equal to the mother, and that is an interesting question, which I would like that person to please answer for us now. Let's look at the facts:

An unborn child is:
1)unable to feed itself
2)unable to defend itself
3)Is, in fact, genetically identifiable as human.
4)Is genetically identifiable as separate from the mother and father.

Arguments one and two trump 3 and 4, therefore abortion is moral, right? Let's observe another situation.

A two year old is:
1)unable to feed itself
2)unable to defend itself
3)Is, in fact, genetically identifiable as human.
4)Is genetically identifiable as separate from the mother and father.

Well, Holy crap! my sister should be able to slaughter her two year old with a kitchen knife by this argument! :o

I'm just following the observed argument to it's logical conclusion.
This one. the only response we got was a stupid something to the effect of

"And 2=1"
You're kinda getting to the point that I was hoping to make when I asked that question, except that you are directing it through the lens of complete lunacy. What I hoped to convey was that there are two convenient points where it is logical to attribute the status of "personhood." One is conception, and the other is birth. The point is that neither of these events represent a one-off action where you can look at the product and reasonably say, "that is a person." Early development is a long chain of concurrent threads of events leading up to the eventual creation of something that could be considered a person. It's not difficult to argue that a two-year-old may not possess all the characeristics of "personhood," and that is the crux of an argument in favor of abortion. There is a convenient event that pretty effectiively delineates the arrival of a person-like entity into this world, and it's not the cortical reaction.

Another question: at which point during the process of conception does the soul enter the zygote? Conception, like all biology, is not a black and white event, no matter how much your religion wants it to be.

EDIT: most abortions supporters will allow for a little before birth to be protected too, just to be safe. But there are two people's rights for which to look out, so we have to be careful how far we err in either direction.

EDIT 2: I also find it ironic that those who complain of murdering blastulas are the first to sing the praises of bacon, or, more ironically, veal.
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thegreekdog
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Re: Abortion

Post by thegreekdog »

A somewhat related point - Abortion is not legal because the fetus can or cannot take care of itself. Abortion is legal because a woman has the right to privacy with respect to her own body, free from government intervention. Therefore, although I agree with Mr. Adams' points, those are not the reasons why abortion is legal in the US (they may be arguments why it should be legal, however, which is why Mr. Adams' points are valid, in my humble opinion).
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isaiah40
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Re: Abortion

Post by isaiah40 »

PLAYER57832 wrote:Many "abortions" are actually surgical removeal of already dead infants.
Question. What is the root of ABORTion?
Army of GOD
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Re: Abortion

Post by Army of GOD »

ion?

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Symmetry
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Re: Abortion

Post by Symmetry »

thegreekdog wrote:A somewhat related point - Abortion is not legal because the fetus can or cannot take care of itself. Abortion is legal because a woman has the right to privacy with respect to her own body, free from government intervention. Therefore, although I agree with Mr. Adams' points, those are not the reasons why abortion is legal in the US (they may be arguments why it should be legal, however, which is why Mr. Adams' points are valid, in my humble opinion).
I suspect it's because they were buried under the weight of posts. If you repost the ones that you find relevant, I'll try to respond and would encourage others to do so. If it's his post about the logical conclusion of abortion being legal, then I can only say that I don't see it as being the aim or even inevitable conclusion of abortion that two year olds could be legally killed.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Re: Abortion

Post by PLAYER57832 »

isaiah40 wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Many "abortions" are actually surgical removeal of already dead infants.
Question. What is the root of ABORTion?
see better answer below
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Symmetry
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Re: Abortion

Post by Symmetry »

isaiah40 wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Many "abortions" are actually surgical removeal of already dead infants.
Question. What is the root of ABORTion?
From the OED-

"Etymology: < classical Latin abortiōn-, abortiō (in post-classical Latin also avorsio (6th cent.)) procuring of miscarriage, miscarriage < abort-, past participial stem of aborīrī (see abort v.) + -iō-ion suffix1"
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Re: Abortion

Post by PLAYER57832 »

Symmetry wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Many "abortions" are actually surgical removeal of already dead infants.
Question. What is the root of ABORTion?
From the OED-

"Etymology: < classical Latin abortiōn-, abortiō (in post-classical Latin also avorsio (6th cent.)) procuring of miscarriage, miscarriage < abort-, past participial stem of aborīrī (see abort v.) + -iō-ion suffix1"
better answer...
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Symmetry
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Re: Abortion

Post by Symmetry »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Many "abortions" are actually surgical removeal of already dead infants.
Question. What is the root of ABORTion?
From the OED-

"Etymology: < classical Latin abortiōn-, abortiō (in post-classical Latin also avorsio (6th cent.)) procuring of miscarriage, miscarriage < abort-, past participial stem of aborīrī (see abort v.) + -iō-ion suffix1"
better answer...
I'm just interested in seeing where Isaiah is going with this. It was a pretty cryptic reply.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Night Strike
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Re: Abortion

Post by Night Strike »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
jimboston wrote:
comic boy wrote:A specialist business ( Abortion Clinic ) that does not rely on government handouts and makes a healthy profit , Capitalist dream , Night Strike must love it, but wait :o :o :o
Hypocrite much !
Actually some do rely on Gov't handouts.

Federal funding is limited by the Hyde amendment.
Planned Parenthood.
Symmetry wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
isaiah40 wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Many "abortions" are actually surgical removeal of already dead infants.
Question. What is the root of ABORTion?
From the OED-

"Etymology: < classical Latin abortiōn-, abortiō (in post-classical Latin also avorsio (6th cent.)) procuring of miscarriage, miscarriage < abort-, past participial stem of aborīrī (see abort v.) + -iō-ion suffix1"
better answer...
I'm just interested in seeing where Isaiah is going with this. It was a pretty cryptic reply.
If the root of the word is to remove a miscarriage (a fetus that is already dead), why is it now being used to justify the killing of a living fetus (one that has not been miscarried)?
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Neoteny
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Re: Abortion

Post by Neoteny »

Fwiw:

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Also, lol at word roots. The term's use has broadened due to the nature of language and the development of procedure, not some insidious left wing plot to kill your babbys.
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Symmetry
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Re: Abortion

Post by Symmetry »

Night Strike wrote: If the root of the word is to remove a miscarriage (a fetus that is already dead), why is it now being used to justify the killing of a living fetus (one that has not been miscarried)?
Language changes. Also, the root that I quoted technically says procuring (i.e. looking to obtain, or obtaining) a miscarriage, rather than removing a miscarriage. It also includes a simple miscarriage without any procurement. So I'm still not sure about how the root of the word necessarily has a great bearing on the current argument, unless you'd care to argue why so many people on this thread are arguing that having a miscarriage is murder as well.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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