[Abandoned] Research & Conquer

[ender516]

So glad to learn you are making backups, OliverFA. A part of me dies every time I see someone in the Foundry report that he has lost all his work when his PC turns four feet to the sky.

[OliverFA]

Awesome Oliver! I don't envy you right now as this must be time consuming. You're doing awesome work, keep it up!

Thanks! Let's see how fast I can go with the geographic territories. Right now I have no idea, but tomorrow I'll see how it evolves.

[OliverFA]

So glad to learn you are making backups, OliverFA. A part of me dies every time I see someone in the Foundry report that he has lost all his work when his PC turns four feet to the sky.

Thanks! Unfortunatelly I learned the hard way when I lost all the information about the 256 players tournament I was hosting But good men learn from disasters, and I learned to backup everything in my PC since then. I have Mozy installed and everything gets copied automatically without me doind anything. However, every time I stop finishing with this XML file I manually start Mozy backup just in case...

[TaCktiX]

So glad to learn you are making backups, OliverFA. A part of me dies every time I see someone in the Foundry report that he has lost all his work when his PC turns four feet to the sky.

I too am in the category of backup nut. I obsessively save my PSD edits in the unlikely event that Photoshop crashes (it never has), I run Carbonite on any files I might want to keep, to include all of my CC work, and all of my images are posted on a site I hold an account to, so I have access to all of them. I remember losing Version 11 of The Citadel and having to recreate the entire thing more or less from the JPG I started with. Not fun.

[Victor Sullivan]

Hold on, stop. Hammertime. Anyways, how are you supposed to control the D-Day Device if the TSF's bombard? And should the text read, "TSFs can bombard all Advanced research"? Seems like a clearer explanation.

-Sully

D-Day is attacked from the labs. TSFs can bombard basic researches as well, not just the advanced ones.

Right, right. I remember now. And I understand now, TaCktiX, though I'm wondering if there could be still more clarification.

[iancanton]

I'm not sure if the question of National Pride ever got resolved. Are we having National Pride count towards all homelands that a player starts with or just the one that has it researched? This is an important distinction in 2-3 player games and may require some rewordings depending on which way its dealt with.

Any feedback for this? If it is to count towards all homelands, then I think changing the text to '+6 bonus for holding own homeland(s)' would add a bit more clarity and if it's only counting towards the one homeland that researched it, then I would suggest '+6 bonus for holding same homeland'. Not sure if the second one is worded the best that it can be, but I think it should at least give the idea of the point I'm trying to make clearer.

No. It did not got resolved.

Do we have any preferences for how we're going to do National Pride for the beginning of Beta then? I would be inclined to suggest that it works for all of the homelands that the player starts with, simply because I think it will be a bit more intuitive and easier to explain, since all of the other techs aren't single homeland specific (such as Propaganda). If this is the case, then I have my suspicions that the neutral value will need to be tweaked, but that can be done in Beta.

this must be explained on the map before it goes to beta. there is currently nothing in the legend which gives any clue to the situation in a 2-player or 3-player game.

ian.

[OliverFA]

I'm not sure if the question of National Pride ever got resolved. Are we having National Pride count towards all homelands that a player starts with or just the one that has it researched? This is an important distinction in 2-3 player games and may require some rewordings depending on which way its dealt with.

Any feedback for this? If it is to count towards all homelands, then I think changing the text to '+6 bonus for holding own homeland(s)' would add a bit more clarity and if it's only counting towards the one homeland that researched it, then I would suggest '+6 bonus for holding same homeland'. Not sure if the second one is worded the best that it can be, but I think it should at least give the idea of the point I'm trying to make clearer.

No. It did not got resolved.

Do we have any preferences for how we're going to do National Pride for the beginning of Beta then? I would be inclined to suggest that it works for all of the homelands that the player starts with, simply because I think it will be a bit more intuitive and easier to explain, since all of the other techs aren't single homeland specific (such as Propaganda). If this is the case, then I have my suspicions that the neutral value will need to be tweaked, but that can be done in Beta.

this must be explained on the map before it goes to beta. there is currently nothing in the legend which gives any clue to the situation in a 2-player or 3-player game.

ian.

We decided long ago that researches are not going to be stacked for 2 and 3 player games because that goes against the concept. I suppose it would be nice to write that down, but it would take place and I am not sure if we have all that space for writing it.

In my opinion it's logical to think that researches don't stack. You can't learn a technology twice. Maybe some players could have doubt, but this is because those players are used to gamey tactics that exploit game mechanics. Logic dictates that researches cannot be stacked.

[Victor Sullivan]

I think his concerns were clarification for what classified as "foreign homeland" in 3- and 2-player games.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

I think his concerns were clarification for what classified as "foreign homeland" in 3- and 2-player games.

Almost got it. My (and ian's) concern is that in a 2-3 player game owns, say NW and SE homelands, and researches National Pride in the NW tech tree, does that National Pride research give a bonus for NW only (the homeland that researched the tech) or does it give a bonus for both NW and SE (both homelands that are start points for the player)?

As I had mentioned above, I think it work best if it counted for both, as I feel it would be more intuitive and easier to explain.

[OliverFA]

I think his concerns were clarification for what classified as "foreign homeland" in 3- and 2-player games.

Almost got it. My (and ian's) concern is that in a 2-3 player game owns, say NW and SE homelands, and researches National Pride in the NW tech tree, does that National Pride research give a bonus for NW only (the homeland that researched the tech) or does it give a bonus for both NW and SE (both homelands that are start points for the player)?

As I had mentioned above, I think it work best if it counted for both, as I feel it would be more intuitive and easier to explain.

Oh, I see now! Well, at least there is room in the map for a (very small) clarification in the National Pride tech. Maybe changing "own" by "starting", or adding "starting" would make things clear.

[carlpgoodrich]

I'm a little worried that "starting" will be misinterpreted since all 6 homelands are "stating" homelands for someone. What about "+6 bonus for holding each original homeland" ?

[MrBenn]

I'm a little worried that "starting" will be misinterpreted since all 6 homelands are "stating" homelands for someone. What about "+6 bonus for holding each original homeland" ?

or "+6 bonus with each corresponding homeland"?

[OliverFA]

Progress report for territories:

6 out of 6 tech trees completed (name, borders, bombardments, coordinates, neutrals and bonuses).
41 of 176 land territories created
Remaining work:

Create 135 land territories
Review technologies part of the XML

http://www.arrakis.es/~oliverfa/Researc ... 200.19.XML

[carlpgoodrich]

I'm a little worried that "starting" will be misinterpreted since all 6 homelands are "stating" homelands for someone. What about "+6 bonus for holding each original homeland" ?

or "+6 bonus with each corresponding homeland"?

Wouldn't that imply that if you start with, for example, the E and W homelands, you would need to hold BOTH National Pride techs to get both bonuses?

I do see why the word "original" in my suggestion isn't great. What about "+6 for each of your starting homelands"? I think that is pretty clear... or do people not like the word "your"?

[TaCktiX]

How about we remove clarification from the table right now and just say "per homeland"? If that ends up atrociously imbalanced, we can muddle over it later.

[OliverFA]

Adding to the brainstorming: Perhaps "+6 bonus per homeland and matching lab"

[carlpgoodrich]

Adding to the brainstorming: Perhaps "+6 bonus per homeland and matching lab"

That works. I think its best if we leave the gameplay as it is for now, don't want to open up that can of worms

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

Adding to the brainstorming: Perhaps "+6 bonus per homeland and matching lab"

That works. I think its best if we leave the gameplay as it is for now, don't want to open up that can of worms

That works great if we're limiting the National Pride tech to working with only its matching homeland that it was researched at, which I could easily agree on.

Otherwise, if we wanted it coded to be both your starting locations, then I had wondered about suggesting the 'your starting' option that carl did. Again, I could agree on this option easily as well, though would expect once beta gets underway it may need a minor neutral value tweak to compensate for it being doubly useful in 2-3 player games.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

How about we remove clarification from the table right now and just say "per homeland"? If that ends up atrociously imbalanced, we can muddle over it later.

I think that the other two options that I commented on above would be a better solution. As carl mentioned, this would modify the gameplay which I think is good as it is now. I believe the point of National Pride was to make the starting homelands worth more than foreign ones, which the suggested change would break as well.

[TaCktiX]

If we go with Oliver's Matching Lab annotation, a matching lab can only be held if you started with it. Thus, the "your starting" verbiage isn't required. I'll post a version tonight to address the wording concerns, then with Oliver posting the remaining geographic territories in the XML we should be done with this (for now).

EDIT:
Faster update than I expected.

Version 9

Updates:
- Clarified the legend in several places
- Changed the errant "i"'s

Again, a partial update of each version to show current state. When final images are needed I'll upload the rest.

88 Small:

Click image to enlarge.

Blank Large:

Click image to enlarge.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

Nice work on the maps TaCktiX. A few thoughts on the updates:

- A number of the i's seem to disappear on the small map and are very difficult to see. I'm not sure if this is a font or colouring issue.

- The update to the TSF bombarding rule makes it less clear that it was previously. Now it sounds like it can only bombard the basic researches and Doomsday. The closest I can think of for a description would be 'A TSf can bombard all its researches' or perhaps 'A TSf can bombard all of its nation's researches'. Or instead of 'nation's' perhaps 'homeland's' would be better, space allowing.

-----

One other thing that was discussed and I can't remember what we decided on: Were we going to require that you hold the capital of the lab where the research was done in order to gain the benefit of the research? I thought we were going to and I really liked this idea, as it added value to holding your own homeland and would encourage people to attack someone's original homeland who's been taking over the game. The only problem with this is that I could see there being problems cramming it into the current legend. I don't know how you feel about it TaCktiX or how much extra work it would be, but an application could be put in for a super-sized map to add an extra line work onto the bottom of the map to extend the legend.

[TaCktiX]

I am not super-sizing this map. End of story.

As for the discussion, I think the losing condition is danger enough. If we implement that requirement, it will actively punish someone who was going for an elimination and managed to get their own original capital taken as well. It's an anti-conquer requirement.

Gah, TSF is aggravating me...

[iancanton]

The update to the TSF bombarding rule makes it less clear that it was previously. Now it sounds like it can only bombard the basic researches and Doomsday. The closest I can think of for a description would be 'A TSf can bombard all its researches' or perhaps 'A TSf can bombard all of its nation's researches'. Or instead of 'nation's' perhaps 'homeland's' would be better, space allowing.

i like a tsf bombards its own homeland's researches. bombards is also used for the doomsday device. similarly, it's possible to use assaults instead of can assault, to be consistent.

ian.

[carlpgoodrich]

Wasn't one of the points of making the TSFs bombard only that we didn't have to worry about people using them as a way to get to advanced researches without going through basic ones? In other words, a TSF can bombard everything but you need the basic techs to attack the advanced ones. I like "A TSF bombards all its researches". And Ian has a good point about consistency.

[-=- Tanarri -=-]

I think that that if there was space 'A TSF bombards all its homeland's researches' would work the best. If not, then I think that 'A TSF bombards all its researches' would work as well. If necessary the 'all' might be able to be removed, but I would suggest against it if possible, though 'A TSF bombards its homeland's researches' might work too.