D.T.W.A.

[john9blue]

i wonder if anyone in this thread has ever personally been addicted to a drug...

[PLAYER57832]

i wonder if anyone in this thread has ever personally been addicted to a drug...

I have not, but I do know people who have been.

Let's put it this way. Our neighbor lost their house because they borrowed against it for legal fees for their daughter. The daughter's son is, well "rather slow". She has a 2 other kids who I don't know, since they were born just before and after they moved.

Another neighbor's boyfriend committed suicide.. while the kids were there watching (they came over to my house after. I did not actually know what had happened, just that the kids were not talking about something pretty big and needed to eat, be taken care of).

Yep, both of those are partially supported by welfare (though not entirely .. more on and off). However, if those consequences were not enough to faze these people, why on earth would losing welfare do it. In the first case, the kids would wind up with the grandparents. Likely, the whole lot would simply be in even worse shape.

The second group... well, they blame everyone and anyone for the problems. Usually its racism. (her kids are mixed-race) The mother is usually clean, its the boyfriends who are not. They don't get welfare, technically. The mother and kids do.

No, I don't live in the projects.. I live in very small town USA. Also a town with a LOT of unemployment, having gone through several plant closures, etc. Incomes at most plants have dropped, either because people are laid off and other lower paid workers (sometimes temps) are hired OR because they no longer get profit-sharing plans (usually they profit sharing plans were quietly dropped when they dropped to nil.. so the workers won't see wages going back up even when/if times get better).

OH, YES... I do know plenty of people who used to or perhaps still do use marihuana (no longer keep in touch with them to know) out in California. They kept jobs, paid taxes and absolutely were not on welfare. Almost all said they were not addicted. I know a few people who have done acid, mushrooms, etc. Again, most are now quite successful (I knew them in college). More successful than fully sober me.

[Night Strike]

3) If the addict doesn't want to recover, then they can start working for their own money to buy drugs with.

So you approve of thievery, muggings and theft? Interesting.

There's no reason why they should be given money from the government to buy the drugs.

You claim you want the government out of our lives. You claim that you want the government more in our lives. Perhaps you should make up your mind.

Why do you assume those things would happen once the free money is cut off? And even if they would, you still think it's better to buy them off rather than stop the money flow to addicts? Sounds like politicians trying to buy off the mob bosses just so they won't go out and commit crimes. Yay for cronyism!!

I do want government out of our lives. But I also don't want my tax money to go to drug addicts. The government is supposed to be responsible stewards of the money we give them via taxes, but letting them provide that money to drug dealers is not a responsible use of our money. Especially since the intermediaries aren't actually doing anything to earn that money.

[natty dread]

Why do you assume those things would happen once the free money is cut off? And even if they would, you still think it's better to buy them off rather than stop the money flow to addicts? Sounds like politicians trying to buy off the mob bosses just so they won't go out and commit crimes. Yay for cronyism!!

Every word that comes out of your mouth makes me cringe.

I do want government out of our lives. But I also don't want my tax money to go to drug addicts.

Someone else might say they don't want their tax money wasted on silly drug tests that help no one.

The government is supposed to be responsible stewards of the money we give them via taxes, but letting them provide that money to drug dealers is not a responsible use of our money.

So your first instinct is to go punish the ones that suffer the most.

Newsflash, this is the situation you created with the war on drugs and "tough on crime" drug policies!!! No one is benefiting more from the prohibition of drugs than the drug dealers (importers and manufacturers mainly).

And yet, you think the way to fix this is to pour even more money into the war on drugs?

Some rhetoric about trying to put out a fire with gasoline comes to mind...

Especially since the intermediaries aren't actually doing anything to earn that money.

What are you doing to "earn" your money? How do you "earn" your money any more than someone on welfare? Do you work harder? Are you more useful to society?

[radiojake]

Especially since the intermediaries aren't actually doing anything to earn that money.

What are you doing to "earn" your money? How do you "earn" your money any more than someone on welfare? Do you work harder? Are you more useful to society?

This -

Like I've mentioned before - It's as if some people think any job is better than not working - I disagree - I think there are plenty of jobs that are worse than doing nothing.

[PLAYER57832]

3) If the addict doesn't want to recover, then they can start working for their own money to buy drugs with.

So you approve of thievery, muggings and theft? Interesting.

There's no reason why they should be given money from the government to buy the drugs.

You claim you want the government out of our lives. You claim that you want the government more in our lives. Perhaps you should make up your mind.

Why do you assume those things would happen once the free money is cut off?

I see, you think they will suddenly decide eating is optional

And even if they would, you still think it's better to buy them off rather than stop the money flow to addicts?

More like paying off the grocers, landlords, etc that benefit from the payments instead of thefts. Also, gee... see, you keep forgetting that the whole reason people get AFDC, almost all other types of welfare is that they have children under 18 at home.

Sounds like politicians trying to buy off the mob bosses just so they won't go out and commit crimes. Yay for cronyism!!

If you want to consider feeding kids equivalent to paying off mob bosses.

I do want government out of our lives. But I also don't want my tax money to go to drug addicts.

Just to drug testing companies

The government is supposed to be responsible stewards of the money we give them via taxes, but letting them provide that money to drug dealers is not a responsible use of our money. Especially since the intermediaries aren't actually doing anything to earn that money.

Buying tests for millions of people who are mostly NOT ON DRUGS to catch a micro few who are, is also a pretty poor use of money. Again, if you want to catch people on drugs, then target their specific behaviors, don't conduct random tests.

[Night Strike]

What are you doing to "earn" your money? How do you "earn" your money any more than someone on welfare? Do you work harder? Are you more useful to society?

Apparently more than you by that sentiment. I work 50-60 hours a week, thank you very much. And that's much more than most of the people on welfare.

[radiojake]

What are you doing to "earn" your money? How do you "earn" your money any more than someone on welfare? Do you work harder? Are you more useful to society?

Apparently more than you by that sentiment. I work 50-60 hours a week, thank you very much. And that's much more than most of the people on welfare.

Like I've mentioned before - It's as if some people think any job is better than not working - I disagree - I think there are plenty of jobs that are worse than doing nothing.

I feel a little sorry for you that you work so many hours a week; I hope you find time to be able to regurlarly enjoy worthwhile pursuits - Obviously you spend a lot of time on Conquer Club (I'd assume moderating tournaments would take a bit of time) -

Not everyone wants to work 60 hours a week; I actually think working that often is my definition of hell. Working less (and as a result, spending less) is definately better for people's sanity.

I think more sanity would be more beneficial for society than you adding another 0.0000000001% to the national GDP each week through your 60 hours of hard work -

[PLAYER57832]

What are you doing to "earn" your money? How do you "earn" your money any more than someone on welfare? Do you work harder? Are you more useful to society?

Apparently more than you by that sentiment. I work 50-60 hours a week, thank you very much. And that's much more than most of the people on welfare.

Parents often work far more. Well, no, make that moms often work far more... and that is not prejudice. Even when men stay home to take care of the kids and women work, the women still do almost half the household work and childcare. Many men still come home, sit on the couch and figure running the vacume or playing ball with the kids on occasion is "sharing" the work. BUT-- that is NOT the situation for those on welfare.. those are almost all single parent families, due to rules that penalize married people heavily. There ARE absolutely exceptions, including many men who are single parents, but they are still very much in the minority (whether that is good or bad is another issue).

[Night Strike]

I think more sanity would be more beneficial for society than you adding another 0.0000000001% to the national GDP each week through your 60 hours of hard work -

I don't care about adding to the GDP: I care about making enough money to support myself and my wife. And until our needs are met, it sure as hell isn't my responsibility to pay the welfare money for people working 0 hours.

[PLAYER57832]

I think more sanity would be more beneficial for society than you adding another 0.0000000001% to the national GDP each week through your 60 hours of hard work -

I don't care about adding to the GDP: I care about making enough money to support myself and my wife. And until our needs are met, it sure as hell isn't my responsibility to pay the welfare money for people working 0 hours.

Except.. the one BIG reason so many have to stay not working is lack of health care. Which, bring us pretty much full circle. In THIS case, its very directly related, because people who have untreated issues are more likely to turn to drugs for solace.

You know, it would be nice if you even halfway considered ALL the contributions that society has put into you before you so blithely insist you don't owe anybody else a thing.

[radiojake]

I don't care about adding to the GDP: I care about making enough money to support myself and my wife. And until our needs are met, it sure as hell isn't my responsibility to pay the welfare money for people working 0 hours.

Ha - "needs" - No one's "needs" require someone to work 60 hours a week, not in the economic system we enjoy in the Western World. We live so extravagently that luxuries have become "needs" - Consume all you can, Nightstrike, fulfil that economic imperative; Ignore the consequences, consume in bliss!

[Night Strike]

I think more sanity would be more beneficial for society than you adding another 0.0000000001% to the national GDP each week through your 60 hours of hard work -

I don't care about adding to the GDP: I care about making enough money to support myself and my wife. And until our needs are met, it sure as hell isn't my responsibility to pay the welfare money for people working 0 hours.

Except.. the one BIG reason so many have to stay not working is lack of health care. Which, bring us pretty much full circle. In THIS case, its very directly related, because people who have untreated issues are more likely to turn to drugs for solace.

You know, it would be nice if you even halfway considered ALL the contributions that society has put into you before you so blithely insist you don't owe anybody else a thing.

I don't owe any money to your generation who believes that everything needs to be provided by the government. That is NOT the mentality that our country was founded on, and it's an unsustainable path for the country. It's your generation that has decided that those of us who are younger must pay for your exorbitant greed, and you're using the government to force us to do so. The entire definition of freedom revolves around being able to provide for yourself and your family. The definition of tyranny is forcing one group of people to work for the benefit of another group. This country is supposed to be about freedom, not indentured servanthood to those who refuse to work and instead demand money from the government. Pay for your own damn expenses; stop making me work to pay for both myself and for you.

[natty dread]

This country is supposed to be about freedom, not indentured servanthood

Says the man who works 60 hours a week.

[natty dread]

What are you doing to "earn" your money? How do you "earn" your money any more than someone on welfare? Do you work harder? Are you more useful to society?

Apparently more than you by that sentiment. I work 50-60 hours a week, thank you very much. And that's much more than most of the people on welfare.

But do you earn that money? Do you do good things, things that benefit the society around you?

Are you deserving of that money? Do you truly earn it?

Are you worthy of it?

[PLAYER57832]

I think more sanity would be more beneficial for society than you adding another 0.0000000001% to the national GDP each week through your 60 hours of hard work -

I don't care about adding to the GDP: I care about making enough money to support myself and my wife. And until our needs are met, it sure as hell isn't my responsibility to pay the welfare money for people working 0 hours.

Except.. the one BIG reason so many have to stay not working is lack of health care. Which, bring us pretty much full circle. In THIS case, its very directly related, because people who have untreated issues are more likely to turn to drugs for solace.

You know, it would be nice if you even halfway considered ALL the contributions that society has put into you before you so blithely insist you don't owe anybody else a thing.

I don't owe any money to your generation who believes that everything needs to be provided by the government.

LOL.. the generation that created most of what we have today was my grandparent's generation.. the one that fought WWII, etc. Hardly a "me first" or "let the government support me" generation . The mistakes they made were largely from ignorance of impacts and the world around.

That is NOT the mentality that our country was founded on, and it's an unsustainable path for the country. It's your generation that has decided that those of us who are younger must pay for your exorbitant greed, and you're using the government to force us to do so. The entire definition of freedom revolves around being able to provide for yourself and your family. The definition of tyranny is forcing one group of people to work for the benefit of another group. This country is supposed to be about freedom, not indentured servanthood to those who refuse to work and instead demand money from the government. Pay for your own damn expenses; stop making me work to pay for both myself and for you.

LOL
diatribe over? I won't even bother with most of your assertions. I simply say.. answer the question.
See, I was pretty specific. I said that I wished you would consider all the benefits you have personally recieved before you say you don't owe society anything. Nothing in there about the government or any of your other claims.

[PLAYER57832]

Oh.. yeah, I WILL answer your claim about "freedom"... sure, for a few white, male land owners. Not for women, not for people of color, not for Native Americans, not for the many who came on jail ships, not for the many bonded servants...

Nightstrike, again, it would be nice if you actually STUDIED the history you seem to recite so often.

[Woodruff]

If a person is responsible enough to make sure not a penny of the welfare dollars go to drugs and they only do drugs when they are free, then I guarantee they are smart enough and able enough to "Just Say No" for 30 days before you apply for welfare.

It's rather simple and dirt cheap. Efficiency.

You keep saying this, but it is in fact the OPPOSITE of efficiency.

The reality is that people have to make an effort on their own to deal with their problems so they can be on the right track with public assistance, rather than abusing it.

I thought you didn't approve of the government nanny-state, Phatscotty? How come you seem to approve of it when it's one of YOUR preferences that's being supported?

the program that exists (welfare) already puts us in nanny state realm.

So your response to the nanny state is to INCREASE the nanny state? Why do you even try to claim to be a Tea Partier?

The outcome will produce a smaller nanny state

This is, in fact, quite impossible. Which you almost certainly know.

and then we move our efforts elsewhere and battle the nanny state wherever it exists.

But you're not battling it. You're adding to it, complementing it, growing it, farming it...and you're happy about that. The truth of the matter is that you're perfectly ok with the nanny-state as long as the nanny is watching what YOU want watched. You're not a Tea Partier...you're just another Republican trying to claim to be a Tea Partier. You are Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann.

[Woodruff]

i wonder if anyone in this thread has ever personally been addicted to a drug...

Do prescription medications count? I ask simply because the discussion has revolved around ILLEGAL drugs, while Phatscotty continues to pretend that LEGAL drugs can cause precisely as severe of lifeskill, financial and otherwise problems as ILLEGAL drugs do.

[Woodruff]

3) If the addict doesn't want to recover, then they can start working for their own money to buy drugs with.

So you approve of thievery, muggings and theft? Interesting.

There's no reason why they should be given money from the government to buy the drugs.

You claim you want the government out of our lives. You claim that you want the government more in our lives. Perhaps you should make up your mind.

Why do you assume those things would happen once the free money is cut off?

It's called survival, Night Strike. Survival needs are the first ones that must be met. What leads you to believe that someone who is addicted to drugs WON'T do those things?

And even if they would, you still think it's better to buy them off rather than stop the money flow to addicts?

It's not "buying them off", it's "not compounding the problems they already have". As well, if there were the potential for this to result in serious savings, I would still be in favor of it despite those things I list above. The FACT of the matter, however, is that potential does not at all exist. It is factually zero potential.

I do want government out of our lives. But I also don't want my tax money to go to drug addicts.

I also don't care to have our tax money go to drug addicts. The FACT of the matter is that there is not this horde of welfare recipients who are drug addicts...they simply do not exist in any kind of serious numbers. However, your desire to have the government in our lives when it has to do with something you want to happen is obvious. That's not at all the same as wanting government out of our lives. There is a word for it, though.

The government is supposed to be responsible stewards of the money we give them via taxes, but letting them provide that money to drug dealers is not a responsible use of our money. Especially since the intermediaries aren't actually doing anything to earn that money.

The government is not providing significant money to drug dealers, because by and large, welfare recipients are not drug addicts. However, if that's the tactic that you want to take, why are you ok with our tax money going to drug dealers via the businesses who are recieving it? Why the difference, if all you care about is stopping the money going to drug dealers? There's a word for that, too. It might even be the same one.

I think more sanity would be more beneficial for society than you adding another 0.0000000001% to the national GDP each week through your 60 hours of hard work -

I don't care about adding to the GDP: I care about making enough money to support myself and my wife. And until our needs are met, it sure as hell isn't my responsibility to pay the welfare money for people working 0 hours.

Except.. the one BIG reason so many have to stay not working is lack of health care. Which, bring us pretty much full circle. In THIS case, its very directly related, because people who have untreated issues are more likely to turn to drugs for solace.

You know, it would be nice if you even halfway considered ALL the contributions that society has put into you before you so blithely insist you don't owe anybody else a thing.

I don't owe any money to your generation who believes that everything needs to be provided by the government.

I'm honestly saddened to see that you think so little of the sacrifices that have been made to keep this nation free that you believe you owe them nothing.

That is NOT the mentality that our country was founded on, and it's an unsustainable path for the country. It's your generation that has decided that those of us who are younger must pay for your exorbitant greed, and you're using the government to force us to do so. The entire definition of freedom revolves around being able to provide for yourself and your family. The definition of tyranny is forcing one group of people to work for the benefit of another group. This country is supposed to be about freedom, not indentured servanthood to those who refuse to work and instead demand money from the government. Pay for your own damn expenses; stop making me work to pay for both myself and for you.

So then this issue has nothing to do with drug use for you, it's simply a matter of your personal greed?

[Night Strike]

I think more sanity would be more beneficial for society than you adding another 0.0000000001% to the national GDP each week through your 60 hours of hard work -

I don't care about adding to the GDP: I care about making enough money to support myself and my wife. And until our needs are met, it sure as hell isn't my responsibility to pay the welfare money for people working 0 hours.

Except.. the one BIG reason so many have to stay not working is lack of health care. Which, bring us pretty much full circle. In THIS case, its very directly related, because people who have untreated issues are more likely to turn to drugs for solace.

You know, it would be nice if you even halfway considered ALL the contributions that society has put into you before you so blithely insist you don't owe anybody else a thing.

I don't owe any money to your generation who believes that everything needs to be provided by the government.

I'm honestly saddened to see that you think so little of the sacrifices that have been made to keep this nation free that you believe you owe them nothing.

I have nothing wrong with providing care for veterans and people who have actually done work their whole lives and retired. What I do NOT want to provide money for is the people in certain cities that can retire in 20 years making more money in retirement than when they were actually working. Or people that are still fully capable of working yet are drawing welfare checks.

That is NOT the mentality that our country was founded on, and it's an unsustainable path for the country. It's your generation that has decided that those of us who are younger must pay for your exorbitant greed, and you're using the government to force us to do so. The entire definition of freedom revolves around being able to provide for yourself and your family. The definition of tyranny is forcing one group of people to work for the benefit of another group. This country is supposed to be about freedom, not indentured servanthood to those who refuse to work and instead demand money from the government. Pay for your own damn expenses; stop making me work to pay for both myself and for you.

So then this issue has nothing to do with drug use for you, it's simply a matter of your personal greed?

MY greed? I'm not the one using the federal government to demand that everyone else pay for my retirement, health care, and eventually anything else I deem that I need. And what's worse is that many of the people demanding these things aren't even trying to provide for themselves.

[Phatscotty]

Wow, he called you greedy? Perhaps he didn't realize the topic matter of "people who abuse public assistance and refuse to take even a drug test to qualify for tax-payer money. Straight up GIMME GIMME". "Why should I have to be sober?"

It's already greedy enough to waste all your time and talent in our short time on this earth being permanently high or searching for a high.

You know all the shootings and broad daylight drug deals that happen in inner cities around the clock? That where a lot of abuse is, as well as many other places. The abuse of the welfare system is destroying families and neighborhoods.

There is nothing greedy about a taxpayer getting angry over blatant abuse of their hard-earned money. It's called accountability.

[PLAYER57832]

Wow, he called you greedy? Perhaps he didn't realize the topic matter of "people who abuse public assistance and refuse to take even a drug test to qualify for tax-payer money. Straight up GIMME GIMME". "Why should I have to be sober?"

It's already greedy enough to waste all your time and talent in our short time on this earth being permanently high or searching for a high.

You know all the shootings and broad daylight drug deals that happen in inner cities around the clock? That where a lot of abuse is, as well as many other places. The abuse of the welfare system is destroying families and neighborhoods.

If there is one thing drug dealers do NOT need, its welfare. They make a good deal more money in their business already.

There is nothing greedy about a taxpayer getting angry over blatant abuse of their hard-earned money. It's called accountability.

Exactly why this testing regime is a stupid idea.. it is a complete waste of money.

[Phatscotty]

Wow, he called you greedy? Perhaps he didn't realize the topic matter of "people who abuse public assistance and refuse to take even a drug test to qualify for tax-payer money. Straight up GIMME GIMME". "Why should I have to be sober?"

It's already greedy enough to waste all your time and talent in our short time on this earth being permanently high or searching for a high.

You know all the shootings and broad daylight drug deals that happen in inner cities around the clock? That where a lot of abuse is, as well as many other places. The abuse of the welfare system is destroying families and neighborhoods.

If there is one thing drug dealers do NOT need, its welfare. They make a good deal more money in their business already.

There is nothing greedy about a taxpayer getting angry over blatant abuse of their hard-earned money. It's called accountability.

Exactly why this testing regime is a stupid idea.. it is a complete waste of money.

A negative test for 14$ saves thousands of potential abused dollars. This is how they are dealing with the waste. 14$. Get over it

[Woodruff]

I don't owe any money to your generation who believes that everything needs to be provided by the government.

I'm honestly saddened to see that you think so little of the sacrifices that have been made to keep this nation free that you believe you owe them nothing.

I have nothing wrong with providing care for veterans and people who have actually done work their whole lives and retired.

Should I quote it again, or is just pointing up above enough to show you that's not at all what you said?

What I do NOT want to provide money for is the people in certain cities that can retire in 20 years making more money in retirement than when they were actually working.

If I teach long enough to reach pension age, I will almost certainly be making more money in retirement than when I was actually working (when combined with my military pension). Are you starting to realize that your blanket statements don't make a lot of sense yet?

Or people that are still fully capable of working yet are drawing welfare checks.

When the job they could be working pays little more than what they receive by not working, why WOULD they? And before you go off about welfare being too high, it is precisely the other side of the coin that is the problem...anyone that believes welfare is too high doesn't know much about it.

I don't like welfare checks going to "people that are still fully capable of working". I can almost certainly guarantee though that your definition of that phrase is vastly different than mine.

That is NOT the mentality that our country was founded on, and it's an unsustainable path for the country. It's your generation that has decided that those of us who are younger must pay for your exorbitant greed, and you're using the government to force us to do so. The entire definition of freedom revolves around being able to provide for yourself and your family. The definition of tyranny is forcing one group of people to work for the benefit of another group. This country is supposed to be about freedom, not indentured servanthood to those who refuse to work and instead demand money from the government. Pay for your own damn expenses; stop making me work to pay for both myself and for you.

So then this issue has nothing to do with drug use for you, it's simply a matter of your personal greed?

MY greed?

Yes, your greed. MINE, MINE, MINE!!!!! (throw in some generic foot-stamping and jumping-up-and-down if you'd like)

I'm not the one using the federal government to demand that everyone else pay for my retirement, health care, and eventually anything else I deem that I need. And what's worse is that many of the people demanding these things aren't even trying to provide for themselves.

You should do a little research before you make stupid statements. It's not hard...you're obviously connected to the Googlemachine.