[RST] - Pirates Win!!!!

[chemefreak]

Hello! I have always wanted to run a tournament like this for clans. A true test of depth and talent.

16 Clans. Bracketed tournament based on the most current (at the start) Leap Ladder. All Random maps. Settings: Automatic, Sequential, Escalating, Chained, Sunny. 2 doubles, 4 triples, and 5 quads for each match-up. Each clan can only use four players per round and cannot use those players again in the tournament. Each of the four players will play an even 9 games randomly assigned by TO (even distribution e.g. every player will get a dubs, 3 trips, and all quads).

Obviously, clans must have at least 16 players! TO will set up all games and send invites. All clans need to do is designate their four players for each round.

***By popular demand, we will play this out until we get an order 1-16. So all clans will play in 4 rounds.***

Notwithstanding this change, we will still play this as a classic bracketed tournament (e.g. Winner of 1v16 will still play Winner of 8v9). Each "new" bracket will be reordered according to rank. However, we do not want to punish a clan for an upset and have to have them beat the top ranked clan every round.

Example: chemefreak, culs de sac, downfall, and tammy delee play for ++The Legion++ in the 1st Round. None of these players can play in any round after this. So clan depth will be tested. Not to mention clan skill due to the random maps.

Medals for the winning clan participants and possibly a little extra

Please sign up below with your clan's contact person.

BRACKET

[spoiler=Clans Participating - Contacts - Players Used]1. ++The Legion++ (Leg) - chemefreak
Rd1: snowgun downfall crashawc pixar
Rd2: wrexham scottp tammy delee rkcved
Rd3: Chewyblu3y culs de sac cyclone_23x dyrtydog
Rd4: Chemefreak gmc mwcc mustapha mond
2. Kill on Arrival (KoA) - chapcrap
Rd1: Jakes1 greenoaks jammyjames kaiser0427
Rd2: GoranZ aad0906 mviola MegasWoman
Rd3: Jefjef foreverman rousseau72 farm
3. Pig Renters (PR) - alt1978
Rd1: Alt1978 Ukberger Gunn217 Coconutt
Rd2: maximegousse f.o.b cpmucha williams5232
Rd3: Eggrollonedolla f.o.b. beer baron bobafart
4. Generation One: The Clan (G1) - bones2484
Rd1: Bones2484 Timminz Barterer2002 Hath
Rd2: ZionT freyme amazzony gameplayer
Rd3: Gilligan Night Strike keiths31 MrGlassB
5. De Verovereraars Der Lage Landen (VDLL) - Frederik Hendrik
Rd1: JBlombier Gertbomber Koganosi Copernicus
Rd2: downunder Inc sunshining Frederik Hendrik claudio
Rd3: Zimmah freak87 Hawkeye Pierce kishih
6. Empire (Emp) - Lubawski
Rd1: SonicSteve Wolffystyle malevolous netspyman
Rd2: Chariot of Fire catnipdreams dowian2 ljex
Rd3: jj3044 BYUwonder11 The Voice mkcummins
Rd4: Ninja Champion lord voldemort dwilhelmi LB Ninja
7. Dynasty (Dyn) - WPBRJ
Rd1: Dupa Kraphtone HOWITZERHAL TheTrueNorth
8. Brethren of the Fat Mermaid (BotFM) - DJ Teflon
Rd1: babagonosh Darknessfollows Sgt.Bobo sirron
Rd2: Crash_22 B==D Boner Donor SupremeRebel donny the bull
Rd3: Genoke anonymus queen_iris DJ Teflon
Rd4: Draq BoganGod Ryno99 GallantPellham
9. The New Crusade (TNC) - tokle
Rd1: bgthebrain ckyrias epitaph1 thunderhue
Rd2: claudard pretender77 dazza2008 francisco969
Rd3: BlackKnight_6 jemal_fixit ejph pershy
10. Black Sheep Squadron (BSS) - hiddendragon
Rd1: j-rafa Raybaer stolemike Thrak
Rd2: Easy n Dirty goggles paisano Darin44 vexx
Rd3: Kikedaniel littlebrother2k7 nokelberry triple6
11. A Fistful of Sixes (AFoS) - Emmdizzle
Rd1: Emmdizzle red42 neva MSex
Rd2: vintender Ironwood watsy Boss Tokugawa
Rd3: jackin_u_up Expetrapaorpo rbelgrod das killa
12. 1st Regiment of Foot Guards: Grenadier Guards (1RFG) - General Brock II
Rd1: Ickyketseddie Agent 86 Baby-Bjorn NightWolf
Rd2: ianphull MegsEggs jdubbs1234 Marshallbobby
Rd3: mr. CD Arya General Brock II Crazy Frog
13. Risk Attackers (RA) - Vioiet
Rd1: therookthief Shaun850 Falkomagno chaos32679
Rd2: sdh sekretar davdanilo tobikera
Rd3: VioIet elmerfudd mrpipes braveheart29
14. Mythology (Myth) - woopintroysbutt
Rd1: anonadick MTIceman41 woopintroysbutt SWN32730
Rd2: alcazar acrazyfella peanutsdad Bazza
Rd3: Bleed Green kjg21 petey lurker555
15. Angels of Death (AoD) - jpcloet
Rd1: azak848 BluU Jpcloet kennys777
Rd2: friendly1 codierose murphy16 Treslie
Rd3: AgentSmith88 CaronylKluster chiefsfan4ever kgbpizza
16. Agents of Chaos (AoC) - jetsetwilly
Rd1: Angola Qyu Nanothegreat Slaylark
Rd2: Eyestone hyposquasher Darkseb rnunez
Rd3: Jetsetwilly Myrelock Usernamer Mekii
Rd4: Nicky15 Hook2 Devon99 Slickstm[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Leap Ladder]As of September 10, 2011
1 Knights of the Round Table
2 The Horsemen of the Apocalypse
3 The Spanking Monkeys
4 Legends of War
5 EMPIRE
6 The Fraternal Order of Exceptional Drinkers
7 The Immortal Assassins
8 Nemesis
9 The Odd Fellows Union
10 The Brethren of the Fat Mermaid
11 ++The Legion++
12 Agents Of Chaos
13 De Veroveraars der Lage Landen
14 Angels of Death
15 A Fistful of Sixes
16 The Bullet-Proof Bandits
17 The Devil's Brigade
18 Mythology
19 Generation One: The Clan
20 The Fantastic Four-Skins
21 The Imperial Dragoons
22 The Dark Knights of Chaos
23 Dynasty
24 Karma Clan
25 The Pack
26 Black Sheep Squadron
27 Grim Reapers
28 The Last Warriors
29 Memento Mori
30 One Step Ahead
31 The New Crusade
32 Death By Comity
33 Kill On Arrival
34 The Pig Renters
35 Always Kicking Ass
36 Risk Attackers
37 Legends of The Zone
38 1st Regiment of the Foot Guards: Grenadier Guards
39 Spelunkers of Hell
40 Wild Geese
41 Welsh Dragons
42 Order 66
43 Pig Renters
44 Igni Ferroque
45 Team Ohio[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Seeding]1. EMPIRE
2. Brethren of the Fat Mermaid
3. ++The Legion++
4. Agents of Chaos
5. De Verovereraars Der Lage Landen
6. Angels of Death
7. A Fistful of Sixes
8. Mythology
9. Generation One: The Clan
10. Dynasty
11. Black Sheep Squadron
12. The New Crusade
13. Kill on Arrival
14. The Pig Renters
15. Risk Attackers
16. 1st Regiment of the Foot Guards: Grenadier Guards[/spoiler]
[spoiler=3rd round myth vs pr - Complete 5-6]Dubs
[game]10067035[/game] PR
[game]10067037[/game] PR
Trips
[game]10067038[/game] PR
[game]10067039[/game] PR
[game]10067040[/game] Myth
[game]10067041[/game] Myth
Quads
[game]10067042[/game] PR
[game]10067043[/game] Myth
[game]10067044[/game] Myth
[game]10067045[/game] PR
[game]10128886[/game] Myth[/spoiler]
[spoiler=3rd round koa vs 1rfg - complete 2-9]Dubs
[game]10067049[/game] 1RFG
[game]10067050[/game] 1RFG
Trips
[game]10067051[/game] 1RFG
[game]10067052[/game] 1RFG
[game]10067053[/game] 1RFG
[game]10067054[/game] 1RFG
Quads
[game]10067055[/game] KOA
[game]10067056[/game] 1RFG
[game]10067057[/game] 1RFG
[game]10067058[/game] 1RFG
[game]10067059[/game] KOA[/spoiler]
[spoiler=3rd round vdll vs ra - Complete 5-6]Dubs
[game]10067061[/game] RA
[game]10067062[/game] VDLL
Trips
[game]10067063[/game] VDLL
[game]10067064[/game] VDLL
[game]10067066[/game] VDLL
[game]10067067[/game] RA
Quads
[game]10067069[/game] RA
[game]10067070[/game] RA
[game]10067072[/game] RA
[game]10067074[/game] RA
[game]10067075[/game] VDLL[/spoiler]
[spoiler=3rd Round EMP vs AOC - Complete 8-3]Dubs
[game]10004563[/game] AoC
[game]10004562[/game] EMP
Trips
[game]10004565[/game] EMP
[game]10004566[/game] EMP
[game]10004567[/game] EMP
[game]10066737[/game] EMP
Quads
[game]10004569[/game] AOC
[game]10004570[/game] EMP
[game]10004571[/game] EMP
[game]10004572[/game] AOC
[game]10004573[/game] EMP[/spoiler]
[spoiler=3rd Round BotFM vs Leg - complete 8-3]Dubs
[game]10004575[/game] BFM
[game]10004576[/game] BFM
Trips
[game]10004577[/game] Leg
[game]10004578[/game] BFM
[game]10004579[/game] BFM
[game]10004580[/game] BFM
Quads
[game]10004581[/game] BFM
[game]10004582[/game] BFM
[game]10004583[/game] Leg
[game]10004585[/game] Leg
[game]10004586[/game] BFM[/spoiler]
[spoiler=3rd round AFoS vs g1 - Complete 8-3]Dubs
[game]10004634[/game] AFoS
[game]10004635[/game] AFoS
Trips
[game]10004636[/game] AFoS
[game]10004637[/game] AFoS
[game]10004638[/game] G1
[game]10004639[/game] G1
Quads
[game]10004643[/game] AFoS
[game]10004644[/game] AFoS
[game]10004645[/game] AFoS
[game]10004646[/game] G1
[game]10004647[/game] AFoS[/spoiler]
[spoiler=3rd round aod vs tnc - complete 6-5]Dubs
[game]10004619[/game] TNC
[game]10004620[/game] AoD
Trips
[game]10004621[/game] TNC
[game]10004623[/game] TNC
[game]10004624[/game] AoD
[game]10099922[/game] TNC
Quads
[game]10004626[/game] TNC
[game]10004627[/game] AoD
[game]10004628[/game] AoD
[game]10004629[/game] AoD
[game]10004631[/game] AoD[/spoiler]
[spoiler=2nd Round 1 EMP vs 9 G1 - Complete 8-3]Dubs
[game]9878565[/game] - G1
[game]9878566[/game] - G1
Trips
[game]9878567[/game] - EMP
[game]9878568[/game] - G1
[game]9878569[/game] - EMP
[game]9878570[/game] - EMP
Quads
[game]9878571[/game] - EMP
[game]9878572[/game] - EMP
[game]9878573[/game] - EMP
[game]9878574[/game] - EMP
[game]9878575[/game] - EMP[/spoiler]
[spoiler=2nd round 4 AOC vs 12 TNC - Complete 10-1]Dubs
[game]9878577[/game] - TNC
[game]9878578[/game] - AoC
Trips
[game]9878579[/game] - AoC
[game]9878580[/game] - AoC
[game]9878581[/game] - AoC
[game]9878582[/game] - AoC
Quads
[game]9878583[/game] - AoC
[game]9878585[/game] - AoC
[game]9878586[/game] - AoC
[game]9878587[/game] - AoC
[game]9878588[/game] - AoC[/spoiler]
[spoiler=2nd round 3 LEG vs 6 AOD - Complete 7-4]Dubs
[game]9878590[/game] - Leg
[game]9878591[/game] - Leg
Trips
[game]9878592[/game] - Leg
[game]9878594[/game] - Leg
[game]9878595[/game] - Leg
[game]9878596[/game] - AoD
Quads
[game]9878598[/game] - Leg
[game]9878599[/game] - AoD
[game]9878600[/game] - AoD
[game]9878602[/game] - AoD
[game]9878603[/game] - Leg[/spoiler]
[spoiler=2nd round 2 BOTFM vs 7 AFOS - Complete 7-4]Dubs
[game]9878605[/game] - BotFM
[game]9878606[/game] - BotFM
Trips
[game]9878607[/game] - BotFM
[game]9878608[/game] - BotFM
[game]9878609[/game] - AFoS
[game]9878610[/game] - AFoS
Quads
[game]9878611[/game] - BotFM
[game]9878612[/game] - AFoS
[game]9878613[/game] - AFoS
[game]9878614[/game] - BotFM
[game]9878615[/game] - BotFM[/spoiler]
[spoiler=2nd round L1 VDLL vs L8 1RFG - Complete 5-6]Dubs
[game]9925912[/game] - VDLL
[game]9899313[/game] - 1RFG
Trips
[game]9899314[/game] - 1RFG
[game]9899315[/game] - VDLL
[game]9899316[/game] - 1RFG
[game]9899317[/game] - 1RFG
Quads
[game]9899318[/game] - 1RFG
[game]9899319[/game] - VDLL
[game]9899320[/game] - VDLL
[game]9899321[/game] - 1RFG
[game]9899322[/game] - VDLL[/spoiler]
[spoiler=2nd round L4 BSS vs L5 KOA - Complete 3-8]Dubs
[game]9899324[/game] - KoA
[game]9899325[/game] - KoA
Trips
[game]9899326[/game] - BSS
[game]9899327[/game] - KoA
[game]9899328[/game] - KoA
[game]9899329[/game] - KoA
Quads
[game]9899330[/game] - KoA
[game]9899331[/game] - BSS
[game]9899332[/game] - BSS
[game]9899334[/game] - KoA
[game]9899335[/game] - KoA[/spoiler]
[spoiler=2nd round L2 Myth vs L7 RA - Complete 7-4]Dubs
[game]9899339[/game] - Myth
[game]9899340[/game] - RA
Trips
[game]9899341[/game] - RA
[game]9899342[/game] - Myth
[game]9899343[/game] - RA
[game]9899344[/game] - RA
Quads
[game]9899345[/game] - Myth
[game]9899346[/game] - Myth
[game]9899347[/game] - Myth
[game]9899348[/game] - Myth
[game]9899349[/game] - Myth[/spoiler]
[spoiler=1st Round - 1 EMP vs 16 1RFG - Complete 9-2]Doubles
[game]9733341[/game] - Emp
[game]9733342[/game] - 1RFG
Triples
[game]9733343[/game] - Emp
[game]9733344[/game] - Emp
[game]9733345[/game] - Emp
[game]9733346[/game] - Emp
Quads
[game]9733350[/game] - 1RFG
[game]9733351[/game] - Emp
[game]9733352[/game] - Emp
[game]9733353[/game] - Emp
[game]9733354[/game] - Emp[/spoiler]
[spoiler=1st Round - 8 MYTH vs 9 G1 - Complete 5-6]Doubles
[game]9733356[/game] - G1
[game]9733357[/game] - G1
Triples
[game]9733359[/game] - Myth
[game]9733360[/game] - G1
[game]9733361[/game] - G1
[game]9733362[/game] - G1
Quads
[game]9733363[/game] - Myth
[game]9733364[/game] - G1
[game]9733365[/game] - Myth
[game]9733366[/game] - Myth
[game]9733367[/game] - Myth[/spoiler]
[spoiler=1st Round - 5 VDLL vs 12 TNC - Complete 2-9]Doubles
[game]9733370[/game] - TNC
[game]9733371[/game] - TNC
Triples
[game]9733372[/game] - TNC
[game]9733373[/game] - TNC
[game]9733374[/game] - TNC
[game]9733375[/game] - TNC
Quads
[game]9733376[/game] - TNC
[game]9733377[/game] - VDLL
[game]9733378[/game] - TNC
[game]9733380[/game] - VDLL
[game]9733381[/game] - TNC[/spoiler]
[spoiler=1st Round - 4 AoC vs 13 KoA - Completed 6-5]Doubles
[game]9733383[/game] - KoA
[game]9733384[/game] - AoC
Triples
[game]9733385[/game] - AoC
[game]9733387[/game] - AoC
[game]9733388[/game] - KoA
[game]9733389[/game] - AoC
Quads
[game]9733393[/game] - AoC
[game]9733394[/game] - AoC
[game]9733395[/game] - KoA
[game]9733397[/game] - KoA
[game]9733398[/game] - KoA[/spoiler]
[spoiler=1st Round - 6 AoD vs 11 BSS - Complete 8-3]Doubles
[game]9733409[/game] - BSS
[game]9733410[/game] - BSS
Triples
[game]9733412[/game] - AoD
[game]9733414[/game] - AoD
[game]9733415[/game] - AoD
[game]9733416[/game] - AoD
Quads
[game]9733418[/game] - AoD
[game]9733419[/game] - AoD
[game]9733421[/game] - BSS
[game]9733422[/game] - AoD
[game]9733426[/game] - AoD[/spoiler]
[spoiler=1st Round - 3 LEG vs 14 PR - Complete 8-3]Doubles
[game]9733434[/game] - Leg
[game]9733435[/game] - Leg
Triples
[game]9733438[/game] - Leg
[game]9733439[/game] - PR
[game]9733441[/game] - Leg
[game]9733442[/game] - Leg
Quads
[game]9733444[/game] - Leg
[game]9733445[/game] - Leg
[game]9733447[/game] - PR
[game]9733449[/game] - Leg
[game]9733451[/game] - PR[/spoiler]
[spoiler=1st Round - 7 AFoS vs 10 DYN - Complete 6-5]Doubles
[game]9733455[/game] - DYN
[game]9733457[/game] - AFoS
Triples
[game]9733458[/game] - AFoS
[game]9733460[/game] - DYN
[game]9733462[/game] - DYN
[game]9733464[/game] - AFoS
Quads
[game]9733465[/game] - AFoS
[game]9733468[/game] - DYN
[game]9733469[/game] - AFoS
[game]9733471[/game] - DYN
[game]9733472[/game] - AFoS[/spoiler]
[spoiler=1st Round - 2 BotFM vs 15 RA - Complete 9-2]Doubles
[game]9733477[/game] - BotFM
[game]9733479[/game] - RA
Triples
[game]9733480[/game] - BotFM
[game]9733481[/game] - BotFM
[game]9733483[/game] - RA
[game]9733484[/game] - BotFM
Quads
[game]9733485[/game] - BotFM
[game]9733486[/game] - BotFM
[game]9733487[/game] - BotFM
[game]9733488[/game] - BotFM
[game]9733490[/game] - BotFM[/spoiler]

[merch313]

Very cool tourney idea Chem good luck with this

[jefjef]

KOA - chapcrap

[Lubawski]

Damn, I love the idea Cheme. I'll talk to the crew at EMPIRE. I don't want us to be overloaded with KORT starting here, but if we space it right, we might be able to pull this off at the same time.

[Leehar]

sounds awesome, and could be pretty exciting.
Tho still would suck to get dumped out on some luck in 11 games, but it'd be worth it. Normal clan medal for tourney winners?

[chemefreak]

sounds awesome, and could be pretty exciting.
Tho still would suck to get dumped out on some luck in 11 games, but it'd be worth it. Normal clan medal for tourney winners?

Yep. I agree that it would suck to get dumped in such a short battle. But with all the stuff all the clans have going on I figured this quick hitter would be a lot of fun. Plus, very little work on the part of clan leaders. I will set up all the games and do all the invites. Should be a blast. Exciting too...unless every random map is HIVE

[Bones2484]

Are we going to play out more than single elimination? Meaning, are we going to settle all battles to get a true 1-16 placing at the end of this?

Only ask because I'm sure clans will have plenty of people interested to go more than one round if they lose right away.

[chemefreak]

Are we going to play out more than single elimination? Meaning, are we going to settle all battles to get a true 1-16 placing at the end of this?

Only ask because I'm sure clans will have plenty of people interested to go more than one round if they lose right away.

Nope. Single elimination. Hopefully this will go pretty quick and we can have another soon. With the CCup2 and ACC going on and the CD Clan League right around the corner, we just thought this would be fun to try out the format.

[Teflon Kris]

Great idea cheme

I'm guessing you'll be starting as soon as you have the sign-ups?

With 4 players per round required I can see a big uptake.

[chemefreak]

Great idea cheme

I'm guessing you'll be starting as soon as you have the sign-ups?

With 4 players per round required I can see a big uptake.

Thanks. That is correct. The 1st 16 are in. I don't want to enlarge it any or have to do play-in games. If it goes as fast as I think it can, we can do another in a little while.

[alt1978]

Pig Renters in please. Sounds like a fun format! Nicely conceived.

[chemefreak]

All in to here. Also, yes, a clan medal for all participants on the winning clan

[chapcrap]

For the doubles games, do we get to pick the partners we are playing with? I know each person will only have 1 doubles game, so I wasn't sure.

[chemefreak]

For the doubles games, do we get to pick the partners we are playing with? I know each person will only have 1 doubles game, so I wasn't sure.

Nope. Random.

[Bones2484]

G1 will play, I'll be the POC!

[Frederik Hendrik]

Nice concept, but it's not very freemium-friendly.

VDLL will play anyway.

FH

[lord voldemort]

Why not use the algorithm of 400 rankings? Its more widely accepted. And is soon to be the 'official ladder' in the minds of the CLA.

[Lubawski]

EMPIRE will play, regardless of when this begins.

Contact: Lubawski

[WPBRJ]

DYNASTY in

[Teflon Kris]

BoFM would like to be in - I am happy to be the contact.

[chemefreak]

Nice concept, but it's not very freemium-friendly.

VDLL will play anyway.

FH

True. However, most clans are premium heavy. If this concept is popular we can tweak it for the next one.

Why not use the algorithm of 400 rankings? Its more widely accepted. And is soon to be the 'official ladder' in the minds of the CLA.

Because we want to use the Leap Ladder

All are in up to this point. Half-way there in less than 24 hours.

[tokle]

The New Crusade are in.
I'll be contact.

[Lubawski]

Cheme, I know it would be more work, but I liked the suggestion that everyone plays a certain amount of rounds. I think single elimination is still ideal for the winner because, as you said, it shows clan depth. However, I think it would suck to lose in the first or second round and then have either 12 or 8 of the people who were geared up for this thing not be able to participate.

i.e. Winners bracket continues up to championship. From the 8 who won the first round, the four to lose in the second round play each other. The two losers of that face off for 7th/8th place. The two winners face off for 5th/6th place. They have had 16 people contribute. Those in the semis who win face each other for 1st/2nd. Those in the semis who lose face each other for 3rd/4th place. They each have had 16 players contribute.

When a clan loses, they then play for their place. ie. the first 8 teams to lose are squared off. The four losers of those then face each other (followed by the two second time losers and two winners). You now have your 13-16th place teams) and each of those teams has had 16 players contribute during the tournament. Of the four teams who lost their first round, but won their second match-up, the two who lose play for 11th/12th place, and the two who won play for 9/10th. Those have also had 16 players contribute.

I'm sure this is a lot more work on your end hosting this, but at least it gives a true showing of all 16 teams depth allowing all teams to have 16 different players contribute.

[chemefreak]

Cheme, I know it would be more work, but I liked the suggestion that everyone plays a certain amount of rounds. I think single elimination is still ideal for the winner because, as you said, it shows clan depth. However, I think it would suck to lose in the first or second round and then have either 12 or 8 of the people who were geared up for this thing not be able to participate.

i.e. Winners bracket continues up to championship. From the 8 who won the first round, the four to lose in the second round play each other. The two losers of that face off for 7th/8th place. The two winners face off for 5th/6th place. They have had 16 people contribute. Those in the semis who win face each other for 1st/2nd. Those in the semis who lose face each other for 3rd/4th place. They each have had 16 players contribute.

When a clan loses, they then play for their place. ie. the first 8 teams to lose are squared off. The four losers of those then face each other (followed by the two second time losers and two winners). You now have your 13-16th place teams) and each of those teams has had 16 players contribute during the tournament. Of the four teams who lost their first round, but won their second match-up, the two who lose play for 11th/12th place, and the two who won play for 9/10th. Those have also had 16 players contribute.

I'm sure this is a lot more work on your end hosting this, but at least it gives a true showing of all 16 teams depth allowing all teams to have 16 different players contribute.

Sure. You and Bones both suggested this so we can do it. Oh, and btw, "a lot more work" is an understatement! Now let's get this thing filled.

[hiddendragon]

BSS IN!!!

I'll run this for us and littlebrother2k7 can be my second