[Official] NBC Mafia Town Win MVP=trinicardinal

[betiko]

pardon my noobishness again; but can you explain what does a mafia godfather do?
his power is that he always turns out cleared when he is investigated? he got other powers as well?
is there a mafia godfather in every game?

[dazza2008]

pardon my noobishness again; but can you explain what does a mafia godfather do?
his power is that he always turns out cleared when he is investigated? he got other powers as well?
is there a mafia godfather in every game?

He sends in the mafia night kill and chooses who commits the kill. Usually is innocent if the cop investigates and sometime bulletproof too.

[trinicardinal]

pardon my noobishness again; but can you explain what does a mafia godfather do?
his power is that he always turns out cleared when he is investigated? he got other powers as well?
is there a mafia godfather in every game?

As far as I understand it (and I am subject to correction) the Godfather leads the mafia (the head of the mafia). He is generally shown as innocent on cop investigations and may be bulletproof, whether fully or one shot bulletproof. He is normally the one to make the kill or sometimes can specify who is the person making the kill...Does not exist in all games But I have seen it a fairly common role from the games I have read. Honestly, i would be surprised if this role is not in this game.

fastposted by dazza

[Leitz]

Ok guys, sorry for my recent inactivitiy. I had a very busy week at school and barely managed to play all my games. I just had time to catch up:

- Unvote (My vote was still on jilmfinn)
- I cannot help but feel suspicious about the rodion - betiko case. I was the first to bring it up on day 1 and have kept it in my mind ever since and I really keep getting the impression betiko is blatantly following Rodions moves, defending him, ... I don't quite know how to react on Rodions claim. Town lost already 2 players so losing another one could be hard for town to get back on top in this game. For now, I will be keeping specifically an eye on betiko (FOS).

[trinicardinal]

Why exactly is it to our advantage to potentially detonate a townie bomb with what will most likely also be a townie (-2 townies with night coming = -3 townies)? Just hoping to get info about who absolutely wouldn't hammer, which could equally as well be a town power role or a mafia? Why do that, when we can investigate the bomb to verify and hopefully only lose 1 townie over night and either have a guaranteed target or at least a solid claim with some suspects? Why the eagerness to blow up (for lack of a better phrase ) the whole game right now?

With no deadline, we even could choose to believe the bomb claim for now and pick another case without risking two town at once. Are we really making the best play here?

I think we are better to deal with this today. If we leave it to night for Rodion to be investigated and he is town the mafia could interfere with the investigation(if they have a framer or something). So I think it will be best to get this over with today or we will be in the same boat tomorrow.

also dazza is not very active on day 2 i think.

In what way have I not been active???

There is another possibility that I have not seen - what if Rodion is Mafia Godfather and this is indeed a fake claim (safe or otherwise)... correct me if I'm wrong here but - investigation would show him as town and we would likely then accept his claim and which would then put him in a position where he is not going to get killed at night and not lynched during the day, giving mafia an extremely strong position (if he is indeed Godfather)

I'm not saying we definitely need to lynch immediately or at all but it is definitely something to think about and keep in mind.

just for clarification btw folks... I am not advocating a no lynch at this point in time. I'm just saying lets not rush to a decision and examine the cases available to us.

[MeDeFe]

(5 new pages later...) (and 2 posts while writing this)

ok... If Rodion is town only a townie would hammer him at this point. I don't think scum would take the chance of betting on him being a fakeclaiming townie. The loss is potentially too great and safari has included bombs in his games before, there's precedence.

If he is scum they were unlikely to kill him anyway, though sacrificing a goon to "clear" a more powerful scum member is a useful strategy at times. What makes that unlikely at this point is that we have too many people who are being suspected in this game, there's no reason to make a scum member seem townish since there are so many potential cases around, some of them are bound to be on townies and all that's needed is to gently press for those rather than for any potential cases on scum members.

Then again, as betiko noted earlier, as fakeclaims go bomb may well be the best there is. This is especially true if you're an enabling role, like the godfather is in some variants, and have to do your damnedest to stay alive. Noone will want to target you with a kill and you show up as innocent.

I'm not fully convinced that you're telling us the truth about your role, but I think there's a possiblity of a busdriver being in the game as well, and whether you're really a bomb or a fakeclaiming godfather, the busdriver has the potential to screw over the scum after your claim either way. I'd advocate for keeping you alive for now.

unvote

[MoB Deadly]

FOS mob; can you explain me what made you change your mind in the last couple of hours about not putting someone at l-1 before he claims??

Dont have time to post all my thoughts on everything, but wanted to make sure I answered this question. I was waiting for Rodion to post and when he did, he attacked the latest voters on him. Jonty and Jimfinn. I felt like if I never put him at L-1 he would of never claimed.

I really have no idea what we should do about this claim, Rodion conveniently or coincidentally has a role that has the ability to change the game. I am still thinking what the best course of action is. But we definitely cant waste a night investigating him, we need to get this resolved before the sun goes down.

fastposted by trini and medefe

[strike wolf]

(5 new pages later...) (and 2 posts while writing this)

ok... If Rodion is town only a townie would hammer him at this point. I don't think scum would take the chance of betting on him being a fakeclaiming townie. The loss is potentially too great and safari has included bombs in his games before, there's precedence.

If he is scum they were unlikely to kill him anyway, though sacrificing a goon to "clear" a more powerful scum member is a useful strategy at times. What makes that unlikely at this point is that we have too many people who are being suspected in this game, there's no reason to make a scum member seem townish since there are so many potential cases around, some of them are bound to be on townies and all that's needed is to gently press for those rather than for any potential cases on scum members.

Then again, as betiko noted earlier, as fakeclaims go bomb may well be the best there is. This is especially true if you're an enabling role, like the godfather is in some variants, and have to do your damnedest to stay alive. Noone will want to target you with a kill and you show up as innocent.

I'm not fully convinced that you're telling us the truth about your role, but I think there's a possiblity of a busdriver being in the game as well, and whether you're really a bomb or a fakeclaiming godfather, the busdriver has the potential to screw over the scum after your claim either way. I'd advocate for keeping you alive for now.

unvote

The problem with the busdriver driving the bomb is a. With the bomb known the mafia know a potential way around this and b. We need the busdriver for the doctor. Any secondary protective (or watcher) roles should still be placed on swifte just in case.

[MoB Deadly]

ok... If Rodion is town only a townie would hammer him at this point. I don't think scum would take the chance of betting on him being a fakeclaiming townie. The loss is potentially too great and safari has included bombs in his games before, there's precedence.

Just realized Medefe said it best. Just like Strike said there is a zero percent chance he is going to hammer. There is a zero percent chance that mafia will hammer. we cant make anyone hammer, and if Rodion starts being agressive about it, their scum pals will probably back them up.

I think Dazza should hammer Rodion. Dazza volunteered to do it, and I don't think we can get around not lynching Rodion. Rodion is a good player (and has lots of experience playing as scum). He has good fake claims, regardless if they are provided or not.

[Swifte]

I think Dazza should hammer Rodion. Dazza volunteered to do it, and I don't think we can get around not lynching Rodion. Rodion is a good player (and has lots of experience playing as scum). He has good fake claims, regardless if they are provided or not.

Wondering why Dazza instead of chap, chap volunteered first. Any particular reason for dazza to do it?

[MoB Deadly]

I think Dazza should hammer Rodion. Dazza volunteered to do it, and I don't think we can get around not lynching Rodion. Rodion is a good player (and has lots of experience playing as scum). He has good fake claims, regardless if they are provided or not.

Wondering why Dazza instead of chap, chap volunteered first. Any particular reason for dazza to do it?

I know Strike has said more than once chap would do it, but didn't chap say he would before Rodion's claim? I thought that was part of Strike's defense on why he shouldn't do it. I don't know when chap said it that's why, if he did volunteer after the claim I am all for it.

[jonty125]

Jonty, being sick is understadable, but your Dec 3rd post had to adress mine, didn't it? The way it happened, it seems like you got to "sneak" a poorly motivated vote and you wouldn't have ever adressed anything if I had not called you out today.

So, did you discard your former reason and just came up with a new one or is this the original reasoning? I don't see your latest post saying anything about me trying to delay town. Ironically, if Jim is a cop and you think I'm mafia, why would I delay his wagon?

I never said it was "set in stone", I said you tried to sell it as a geniune case when it wasn't you should never have to revert to your 'case'

EBWOP "set in stone" section I pressed submit not preview

You made a shocking case against strike I thought to myself - what the hell is he doing? After many moments thought I came up with your scum trying to delay us (rubbish, I know). So I voted you for your poor logic in your case against strike and selling it as "set in stone" ← Does this clarify

Oh, you didn't?

Strike, it felt like you wouldn't unvote, but your post was still too "on the fence". Your latest one is much better and clearer. Thank you.

No I haven't discarded my former reason but I have explained it further and about the time-wasting I got mixed up with Greek game which has deadlines every two weeks (I'm even voting in green at times) and you haven't addressed any points in my argument.

[trinicardinal]

I think Dazza should hammer Rodion. Dazza volunteered to do it, and I don't think we can get around not lynching Rodion. Rodion is a good player (and has lots of experience playing as scum). He has good fake claims, regardless if they are provided or not.

Wondering why Dazza instead of chap, chap volunteered first. Any particular reason for dazza to do it?

and why are you anxious for us to lose what is likely to be 2 townies? As was stated no scum is going to hammer. so we'll just be down 2 townies for the effort,



fastposted by 2 people.

[MoB Deadly]

I think Dazza should hammer Rodion. Dazza volunteered to do it, and I don't think we can get around not lynching Rodion. Rodion is a good player (and has lots of experience playing as scum). He has good fake claims, regardless if they are provided or not.

Wondering why Dazza instead of chap, chap volunteered first. Any particular reason for dazza to do it?

and why are you anxious for us to lose what is likely to be 2 townies? As was stated no scum is going to hammer. so we'll just be down 2 townies for the effort,



fastposted by 2 people.

because I can't help but think Rodion is lying. Its the perfect claim for the game right now, almost too perfect, and I don't think its a coincidence. I think I need to do research on the games where Rodion is scum and try to find his claims. Dont have time at the moment though.

I am certainly not anxious to vote, but right now I am convinced it is the right thing to do eventually. Is it worth to reaffirm it with a cop investigation, which will still be partially WIFOM with the mafia knowing an investigation on him is imminent.

This is the first time I've faced a bomb claim, I am honestly fairly unsure what the best thing to do is here.

[Swifte]

I think Dazza should hammer Rodion. Dazza volunteered to do it, and I don't think we can get around not lynching Rodion. Rodion is a good player (and has lots of experience playing as scum). He has good fake claims, regardless if they are provided or not.

Wondering why Dazza instead of chap, chap volunteered first. Any particular reason for dazza to do it?

I know Strike has said more than once chap would do it, but didn't chap say he would before Rodion's claim? I thought that was part of Strike's defense on why he shouldn't do it. I don't know when chap said it that's why, if he did volunteer after the claim I am all for it.

Second post after Rodion claimed:

Clown with the Tear-Away Face, town bomb.

That said, I'll probably want either Strike or Chap to be the hammer (so unvote, let someone else L-1 and then hammer). I'll know for sure after I get to interrogate Jonty some more and possibly hear input from some quiet people (Shield, Leitz, Swifte come to mind).

I'll hammer if you would like. I have nothing to lose. Although if your claim is true, it sucks that we are going to lose two town.

Can we get a vote count and a clarification on the deadline?

fastposted by trini and mob.

[MoB Deadly]

Thanks Swifte

[strike wolf]

Yes mafia won't hammer and it isn't a conclusive tell if someone refuses to hammer. The safe and probably right decision is for Rodion to hammer himself but he does not seem to be so inclined. The other option is to force someone who has been suspected to hammer via threat of vig kill and/or lynch but that's more dangerous. There are only two legitimate options for the hammer. Chap who with jim's cop claim jumps back up to suspect #2 on my list or rodion himself.

Fastposted by mob: in Terminator he claimed Marcus town busdriver (provided by Safari as a fake claim), in Unknown mafia I believe he claimed Roland-one shot governor (not sure if that was provided or not or any other circumstances surrounding the role).

[Rodion]

The problem with the busdriver driving the bomb is

b. We need the busdriver for the doctor.

Because the busdriver can only target 1 person, right?

Medefe, exploding 1 scum because the busdriver swapped me with their target is nice, but there are some problems with that. First of all, the doctor needs protection. If mafia ever knows who is being swapped with whom, they can get the doctor. The second problem is the confirmation problem. The cop is not going to target me if I'm being swapped around and thus we'll still

Mob, I'm pretty sure Chap said it after the claim because I only started talking about who should hammer after I claimed.

Trini, I think you're misinterpreting Swifte (or were you talking to Mob?). He's not trying to force Chap to hammer, he is just interested in knowing why Mob would rather have Dazza hammer instead of Chap. Swifte's thoughts on the situation were already given in his penultimate post and you can clearly tell he is not anxious at all.

Jonty, I'm now satisfied with your answers. The delay-accusation-that-was-not-supposed-to-exist-but-it's-no-big-deal-because-I-can-always-come-up-with-something-else has been registered. Anyway, I did not adress some of your points because I don't see the purpose in doing so. If you think town will benefit from me answering something you wrote, please state it again in the form of a question and I'll answer it in my following post.

Fastposted like hell. This game really pick up pace!

[Rodion]

Medefe's paragraph was incomplete.

Medefe, exploding 1 scum because the busdriver swapped me with their target is nice, but there are some problems with that. First of all, the doctor needs protection. If mafia ever knows who is being swapped with whom, they can get the doctor. The second problem is the confirmation problem. The cop is not going to target me if I'm being swapped around and thus we'll still be at an impasse regarding my alignment.

[betiko]

I think Dazza should hammer Rodion. Dazza volunteered to do it, and I don't think we can get around not lynching Rodion. Rodion is a good player (and has lots of experience playing as scum). He has good fake claims, regardless if they are provided or not.

Wondering why Dazza instead of chap, chap volunteered first. Any particular reason for dazza to do it?

and why are you anxious for us to lose what is likely to be 2 townies? As was stated no scum is going to hammer. so we'll just be down 2 townies for the effort,



fastposted by 2 people.

yup agree with trini. again you seem a bit too anxious to see this happen. why don't you volunteer mob?
and chap seems too anxious to hammer. I am just wondering if he is not rodion's lyncher. i don't know, there is really something not right between these 2..


Also, I don't think that dazza would really say "i can volunteer i am not a power role" if it was true. he's practically claiming VT there when no one asked him anything. Is this really a VT agreeing to sacrifice? i don't know how to interpretate this, but i think it's a bad play that with wifom actually becomes a great play, lol.
the way rodion is baiting chap and strike is not logic. the way chap is so willing to hammer a potential bomb can be just pure to see who brings him at l-1 knowing we might lose 2 towns in the action.
The whole question is: do they really mean this? does rodion really want to see chap nail him? does chap really wants to hammer him? i don't really think so, I think they are 2 experienced players and they know that this is bad for town, but that it's a good way to get info.


fastposted 4 times

[trinicardinal]

I think Dazza should hammer Rodion. Dazza volunteered to do it, and I don't think we can get around not lynching Rodion. Rodion is a good player (and has lots of experience playing as scum). He has good fake claims, regardless if they are provided or not.

Wondering why Dazza instead of chap, chap volunteered first. Any particular reason for dazza to do it?

and why are you anxious for us to lose what is likely to be 2 townies? As was stated no scum is going to hammer. so we'll just be down 2 townies for the effort,



fastposted by 2 people.

because I can't help but think Rodion is lying. Its the perfect claim for the game right now, almost too perfect, and I don't think its a coincidence. I think I need to do research on the games where Rodion is scum and try to find his claims. Dont have time at the moment though.

I am certainly not anxious to vote, but right now I am convinced it is the right thing to do eventually. Is it worth to reaffirm it with a cop investigation, which will still be partially WIFOM with the mafia knowing an investigation on him is imminent.

This is the first time I've faced a bomb claim, I am honestly fairly unsure what the best thing to do is here.

Its the first time I've faced it also. I also agree that its an extremely good fake claim to use if it is indeed a fake claim. My problem is that if a townie hammers and the claim is real then we lose 2 townies. we are already down 2 so that will make 4 and then night will add another so that will make 5 townies and NO SCUM dead by day 3 IF and only IF Rodion is telling the truth and town hammers. that's a tough situation to be in... it may still be better to leave Rodion for now and let those with night roles do what they can... I don't know what is the best thing to do.

fastposted again

@ Rodion

1 yeah - its picked up pace like crazy
2 I was talking to MoB not Swifte... I agree with Swifte's question.

fastposted again

[Swifte]

Trini, I think you're misinterpreting Swifte (or were you talking to Mob?). He's not trying to force Chap to hammer, he is just interested in knowing why Mob would rather have Dazza hammer instead of Chap. Swifte's thoughts on the situation were already given in his penultimate post and you can clearly tell he is not anxious at all.

Rodion, you accurately summarized my view here, but I think that instead it was you who misinterpreted trini. The way I interpretted Trini was that he was adding to my question, asking Mob why HE was so anxious to have someone hammer, not why I was.

fastposted by betiko, and by trini who verified my interpretation

[MeDeFe]

The problem with the busdriver driving the bomb is a. With the bomb known the mafia know a potential way around this and b. We need the busdriver for the doctor. Any secondary protective (or watcher) roles should still be placed on swifte just in case.

Regarding a, the busdriver (if there is one) knows the scum know this, and the scum know that the busdriver knows this as well, and so it goes. There might not even be a busdriver, in which case the scum may end up killing their fakeclaiming godfather because they thought he'd be busdriven and therefor safe to target.

It's exactly the same thing with the doctor, really, the scum may actively be avoiding targeting the doc because they assume he's being busdriven or watched, and the busdriver and/or watcher may be going for completely different targets because they know the mafia may not even be targeting the doc.

So there isn't just wine but a whole assortment of beverages in front of them because there's the safe way of playing the game, and then there are the crazy things people actually do.


And fastposted about 8 or 10 times... But this goes for what Rodion wrote as well. There's simply too much wine on the table to make any good predictions about who's going to switch who and who'll watch or protect whom.

[betiko]

The problem with the busdriver driving the bomb is a. With the bomb known the mafia know a potential way around this and b. We need the busdriver for the doctor. Any secondary protective (or watcher) roles should still be placed on swifte just in case.

Regarding a, the busdriver (if there is one) knows the scum know this, and the scum know that the busdriver knows this as well, and so it goes. There might not even be a busdriver, in which case the scum may end up killing their fakeclaiming godfather because they thought he'd be busdriven and therefor safe to target.

It's exactly the same thing with the doctor, really, the scum may actively be avoiding targeting the doc because they assume he's being busdriven or watched, and the busdriver and/or watcher may be going for completely different targets because they know the mafia may not even be targeting the doc.

So there isn't just wine but a whole assortment of beverages in front of them because there's the safe way of playing the game, and then there are the crazy things people actually do.

And fastposted about 8 or 10 times... But this goes for what Rodion wrote as well. There's simply too much wine on the table to make any good predictions about who's going to switch who and who'll watch or protect whom.

yup, i do think crazy things will happen tonight and that mafia will have dificult choices to make! too much information is not necesairly what is the best thing for them as we are all sharing it.

so I'm quite unclear here;
-who still wants the rodion hammer
-who wants another case
-who wants a no lynch

it seems like votes haven't changed a lot in spite of all the messages exchanged

[Rodion]

Let me adress this directly, once and for all. I am not going to hammer myself. Why would I explode myself and forfeit a legit shot at exploding scum instead?

"But mafia is not going to hammer you!"

Well, mafia will not want to hammer me, but we can make anyone (but me) hammer myself. We still have the majority of players and threatening to lynch if they don't hammer is the correct way to play this. If we catch mafia with the threat, they'll be forced to either hammer me and explode (town bomb dead, mafia dead unless he is a bulletproof godfather) or refuse and be lynched instead (mafia dead, town bomb alive), so they'll be forced to hammer. If we play it any other way, we are basically sacrificing someone that is 100% VT and 0% mafia, a scenario I won't endorse.

Fasposted by Swifte: yeah, I was a little confused by that, but it seems he was actually questioning Mob.

Fasposted by Medefe: you're correct. Well, I'd rather see people stick to the simple strategies (doctor protects cop) instead of WIFOMing the crazy things (doctor thinks mafia will be afraid to "waste" their NK on a protected cop, so he protects someone else) - hence in part my will to make guides and tell some power roles what they should be doing -, but ultimately I don't have control on what people will do. I'll meditate a while on your suggestion, but there might be too many variables to make an accurate call between the "force specific person to hammer me via threat" or "drop this for a while" strategies. Anyway, I'll tell you what I think later.

Fasposted by MOAR PEOPLE!