The SquirrelMasters' Quest (25/25) Night 1~A quick getaway

[drunkmonkey]

This is what I was trying to find the words for. I'm not sure if General is playing scummy or just too stubborn to do anything unless we play the way he thinks mafia is supposed to be played.

This raises some interesting questions. Is the way he plays the game wrong? It is different than the strategy used by the majority of players here, but the majority strategy is self reinforcing. By considering other game play styles to be wrongish and leading to clashes between those who use different styles, the majority style purges others from the forum by either forcing those who practices different ideologies to convert or simply driving them away. The effect of this on the mafia community is probably worth a discussion, but is beyond the scope of this thread. Maybe someone wants to start something up on the discussion board?

Well, the issue is that his strategy only works if everyone else uses the "majority strategy". He finds tells by reading, not voting. If everyone did that, there would be nothing to read. It's not a viable majority strategy, and by sitting back waiting on someone to slip up, you're taking advantage of an excuse to avoid slipping up yourself.

[Rodion]

This is what I was trying to find the words for. I'm not sure if General is playing scummy or just too stubborn to do anything unless we play the way he thinks mafia is supposed to be played.

This raises some interesting questions. Is the way he plays the game wrong? It is different than the strategy used by the majority of players here, but the majority strategy is self reinforcing. By considering other game play styles to be wrongish and leading to clashes between those who use different styles, the majority style purges others from the forum by either forcing those who practices different ideologies to convert or simply driving them away. The effect of this on the mafia community is probably worth a discussion, but is beyond the scope of this thread. Maybe someone wants to start something up on the discussion board?

Well, the issue is that his strategy only works if everyone else uses the "majority strategy". He finds tells by reading, not voting. If everyone did that, there would be nothing to read. It's not a viable majority strategy, and by sitting back waiting on someone to slip up, you're taking advantage of an excuse to avoid slipping up yourself.

This.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem

We usually find scum through slips. If someone does not talk, he is immune to slipping. Well, if you know your role and you know you're town, you'll probably think you are entitled to being immune, but a big part of the game is convincing other townspeople that you are also a townspeople. Hence, nobody should be immune.

The correct way of playing is forcing everyone to contribute. No one should get a "pass" because in doing so we're opening breaches for scum to get a guaranteed D1 survival.

General, I'm not sure about the style. In Soundman's, you've actually jokevoted until things got serious. You conformed to the majority's meta. Here, you already started with the no-lynch/surrender. You didn't even give town a chance to find a scumslip before you concentrated everyone's attention towards you. I'm just noting that for future reference since I can't do much about it until I see you flip in at least one game.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

We usually find scum through slips.

Depending on how you define "slips" I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. If by slips you mean motives and such, then yes, but if you mean mistakes (like admitting to the wrong night action or something), then I'd say no.

And this leads me to my second point: this game is all about motivation. I'm sure 2112 has read this enough because everybody seems to be responding the same way, but "follow-the-cop" play is terrible, not to mention boring. We're just hoping that the cop targets the right person, which is harder to do when there's no actual discussion to choose candidates. Then we lynch him, and hope that the next night he gets something else. And this is forgetting that the cop may get killed, or gets an innocent. What are we to do then? Let's say the cop does miraculously get a scum result; how do we connect him to any of his team? Honestly, sometimes the cop seems like the worst addition to the game; it fosters this lazy style of play where we don't want to exert the effort into making cases. Even if they're erroneous, making cases does more to help improve the game than anything else.

People have this illusion that losing a townie on D1 is game-breaking; it isn't. If they're concerned about losing the cop or doc, they should realize that any good doc or cop will not draw attention to themselves, and if they do, then they probably would've been a shitty cop or doc anyway.

Also, around here, PR= post restriction, generally.

-Tails

[Mr. Squirrel]

Current Battlefield Rundown:

Rodion (1) - Haggis_Mcmutton
jonty (1) - jonty
drunkmonkey (1) - sensfan,
Victor (4) - sensfan, PCM, edocsil, drunkmonkey
Haggis_Mcmutton (1) - Rodion
Trinicardinal (2) - /, drake
zimmah (1) - chapcrap
doomyoshi (1) - soundman
thegeneral (7) - safariguy, doomyoshi, victor sullivan, zimmah, thehippo, trinicardinal, iliad
Surrender has been declared by 2: ghostly, general2112

It takes 13 to kill.

[drunkmonkey]

I never put a vote on Victor. Is someone stealing my votes again?

[Mr. Squirrel]

Current Battlefield Rundown:

Rodion (1) - Haggis_Mcmutton
jonty (1) - jonty
drunkmonkey (1) - sensfan,
Victor (3) - sensfan, PCM, edocsil,
Haggis_Mcmutton (1) - Rodion
Trinicardinal (2) - /, drake
zimmah (1) - chapcrap
doomyoshi (1) - soundman
thegeneral (7) - safariguy, doomyoshi, victor sullivan, zimmah, thehippo, trinicardinal, iliad
Surrender has been declared by 2: ghostly, general2112

It takes 13 to kill.

I never put a vote on Victor. Is someone stealing my votes again?

You're right. My bad. I don't know where that came from.

[zimmah]

Current Battlefield Rundown:

Rodion (1) - Haggis_Mcmutton
jonty (1) - jonty
drunkmonkey (1) - sensfan,
Victor (3) - sensfan, PCM, edocsil,
Haggis_Mcmutton (1) - Rodion
Trinicardinal (2) - /, drake
zimmah (1) - chapcrap
doomyoshi (1) - soundman
thegeneral (7) - safariguy, doomyoshi, victor sullivan, zimmah, thehippo, trinicardinal, iliad
Surrender has been declared by 2: ghostly, general2112

It takes 13 to kill.

I never put a vote on Victor. Is someone stealing my votes again?

You're right. My bad. I don't know where that came from.

a drunk squirrel.

[MoB Deadly]

I know theres different playsyles, but general takes things way to far

FOS general

[ghostly447]

Okay, for the time being I am going to say Unvote surrender.

I am going to go through tonight and make a spreadsheet once I can sit down and have a little more time to read through all the debate and then I will make a decision afterwards. Hopefully no one will hammer general until I can can that set up, because for some reason I see he has a lot of the votes.

Anyways, I'm off again for now!

[zimmah]

Okay, for the time being I am going to say Unvote surrender.

I am going to go through tonight and make a spreadsheet once I can sit down and have a little more time to read through all the debate and then I will make a decision afterwards. Hopefully no one will hammer general until I can can that set up, because for some reason I see he has a lot of the votes.

Anyways, I'm off again for now!

it takes 13 to kill, no worries. and if you haven't posted by the time he is at l-2 or so i'll just surrender to give you more time.

[chapcrap]

Ok, just caught up from all of the posts.

My last post was a joking post, so I would like to unattack to start off with.

Next, about General talking about an active game, perhaps if Rodion didn't ask him a direct question about the active game, it wouldn't have been brought up. However, I don't think it's an issue because it was simply a theoritical view that meant to be discussed, not actual game specifics.

General, the logic behind your math is flawed. I understand the math, but if you added another lynch to the mix for Day 1, then your percentages go up of lynching scum for Day 2. Not only that, it actually gives town a chance to find scum instead of sitting back and letting everything happen through night actions. In the game that Rodion asked you about, what if we would have sat back and did a no lynch? The Godfather would still be alive. So, just because the percentages are low that we find scum, doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Also, you called out someone (MoB?) about his math being bad. It wasn't, you just didn't understand what he was saying. You accused him of skimming and you should have accused yourself of being blinded by rage. What he was saying is that your argument was based on gaining 5% probability of not lynching town from one day to the next. However, in order to gain that 'advantage' you must lynch 17% of the town. That doesn't really seem worth it, does it?

If we were to use General's scenario and add a Day 1 lynch, that makes 4 kills on day 1/night 1. And there are 24% mafia and 8% third party. (BTW, I think those numbers are pretty wrong, since we know that there are 4 mafia, not 6). Anyway, with 4 kills and 32% not town, odds are we'd get one of the bad guys (and of course I mean good guys because of the backwardness).

With General being out of control, wrong multiple times, having bad day 1 logic, having bad math and math logic, as well as skimming the fact are 4 mafia, I will go ahead and Attack TheGeneral2112

[Victor Sullivan]

By the devils! I've missed a lot.

Order a drink from the bartender, and ask how his relationship with his wife has been since they got into that big argument that one time.

-Sully

[ghostly447]

Ok, just caught up from all of the posts.

My last post was a joking post, so I would like to unattack to start off with.

Next, about General talking about an active game, perhaps if Rodion didn't ask him a direct question about the active game, it wouldn't have been brought up. However, I don't think it's an issue because it was simply a theoritical view that meant to be discussed, not actual game specifics.

General, the logic behind your math is flawed. I understand the math, but if you added another lynch to the mix for Day 1, then your percentages go up of lynching scum for Day 2. Not only that, it actually gives town a chance to find scum instead of sitting back and letting everything happen through night actions. In the game that Rodion asked you about, what if we would have sat back and did a no lynch? The Godfather would still be alive. So, just because the percentages are low that we find scum, doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Also, you called out someone (MoB?) about his math being bad. It wasn't, you just didn't understand what he was saying. You accused him of skimming and you should have accused yourself of being blinded by rage. What he was saying is that your argument was based on gaining 5% probability of not lynching town from one day to the next. However, in order to gain that 'advantage' you must lynch 17% of the town. That doesn't really seem worth it, does it?

If we were to use General's scenario and add a Day 1 lynch, that makes 4 kills on day 1/night 1. And there are 24% mafia and 8% third party. (BTW, I think those numbers are pretty wrong, since we know that there are 4 mafia, not 6). Anyway, with 4 kills and 32% not town, odds are we'd get one of the bad guys (and of course I mean good guys because of the backwardness).

With General being out of control, wrong multiple times, having bad day 1 logic, having bad math and math logic, as well as skimming the fact are 4 mafia, I will go ahead and Attack TheGeneral2112

I am about to settle in myself and finally catch up on all this reading, but I must agree that chap addressed a lot of major things. Blind rage is something that would slightly hint me to think he is just trying to point us in the direction of someone else, so I wonder if I am going to see any of it . Anyways, I will have my thoughts summed up after I reread through all... 200 messages?!

[TA1LGUNN3R]

I'd just like to say I don't think we should be stringing up 2112 for just advocating a no lynch... he obviously has amateur tactics, but that's a n00b mistake, and I think he acted in what he believed were the best interests. It's not like he wanted a no lynch when he or another was under pressure.

In other words, I think we're being too quick to seize upon one scum tell from an inexperienced player in hopes of catching scum. If this were advocated by, say, pancake, /, or any other experienced player, then yeah, we should pursue it. I'm not willing to hang 2112 for a common newbie mistake.

-Tails

[Victor Sullivan]

I'd just like to say I don't think we should be stringing up 2112 for just advocating a no lynch... he obviously has amateur tactics, but that's a n00b mistake, and I think he acted in what he believed were the best interests. It's not like he wanted a no lynch when he or another was under pressure.

In other words, I think we're being too quick to seize upon one scum tell from an inexperienced player in hopes of catching scum. If this were advocated by, say, pancake, /, or any other experienced player, then yeah, we should pursue it. I'm not willing to hang 2112 for a common newbie mistake.

-Tails

At the same time you must admit it's a better lead than most leads Day 1. If not TheGeneral, then who else?

-Sully

[chapcrap]

I'd just like to say I don't think we should be stringing up 2112 for just advocating a no lynch... he obviously has amateur tactics, but that's a n00b mistake, and I think he acted in what he believed were the best interests. It's not like he wanted a no lynch when he or another was under pressure.

In other words, I think we're being too quick to seize upon one scum tell from an inexperienced player in hopes of catching scum. If this were advocated by, say, pancake, /, or any other experienced player, then yeah, we should pursue it. I'm not willing to hang 2112 for a common newbie mistake.

-Tails

VS is right, great day 1 lead.

Second of all, whether it is just cockiness or truth, General says he is experienced and not a noob. If he wants to claim that, then he should be judged as such.

[sensfan]

Yay! I have two votes.

Wait, do I? You drunk squirrel, I did not vote Sully!

[zimmah]

I'd just like to say I don't think we should be stringing up 2112 for just advocating a no lynch... he obviously has amateur tactics, but that's a n00b mistake, and I think he acted in what he believed were the best interests. It's not like he wanted a no lynch when he or another was under pressure.

In other words, I think we're being too quick to seize upon one scum tell from an inexperienced player in hopes of catching scum. If this were advocated by, say, pancake, /, or any other experienced player, then yeah, we should pursue it. I'm not willing to hang 2112 for a common newbie mistake.

-Tails

At the same time you must admit it's a better lead than most leads Day 1. If not TheGeneral, then who else?

-Sully

one of the other 2 persons hiding, let me check real fast

Surrender

Retreat! Fall back, men! We're in over our heads!

-Sully

hmm, experienced player? yes
retreated? yes
reason to retreat? no, he was the first one to retreat, right after day start
possible joke? maybe, but you know this kind of jokes are risky.

are you going to call WIFOM?

Attack Sully

(oh and the other player who retreated (and hardly contributed) is ghostly, but i'm not sure if he's

1) just not has much time IRL
2) scummarining (i doubt that)
3) noob
4) any combination of the above

[spiesr]

By the devils! I've missed a lot.
Order a drink from the bartender, and ask how his relationship with his wife has been since they got into that big argument that one time.

Err, despite your attempt to surrender, there is still a significant bar-fight going on here. I don't think the bartender will be too interested in serving you at the moment...

[DoomYoshi]

I'd just like to say I don't think we should be stringing up 2112 for just advocating a no lynch... he obviously has amateur tactics, but that's a n00b mistake, and I think he acted in what he believed were the best interests. It's not like he wanted a no lynch when he or another was under pressure.

In other words, I think we're being too quick to seize upon one scum tell from an inexperienced player in hopes of catching scum. If this were advocated by, say, pancake, /, or any other experienced player, then yeah, we should pursue it. I'm not willing to hang 2112 for a common newbie mistake.

-Tails

Making n00b mistakes is one thing. Insisting that you are correct and purposely use false logic in an attempt to exonerate yourself is something completely different.

This is not a question of play style. What the general is doing is NOT playing. Therefore, it is a question of whether or not when you sign up for a game of mafia you should be willing to play.

[drunkmonkey]

Sully's was obviously a joke vote, and he didn't spend countless posts defending the surrender stance.

FOS zimmah for deflecting the actual case to someone else who joked about it.

[safariguy5]

I really don't feel like piling on here, but to wait until a cop gets a guilty result doesn't back up the numbers.

Odds are that cops don't get guilty results for several nights. If we wait until the cop gets a guilty result, that may only come when mafia have already gained majority and won. And if the cop gets NKed, that plan is kaput. Not to mention relying on the cop will never catch the godfather because the godfather shows up as innocent under investigation.

I seriously do not see why we want to NL straight away on day 1. If we get some pressures, a couple of claims, and good discussion, then I will consider a no lynch, but to do it blind is never a good strategy to me.

[/]

Ah, fight getting serious already? Time to steal the good stuff. *inches towards the key to the fine liqueur cabinet*

I agree that vic is a bit scummy, not particularly for joking about a retreat, but for joking about a retreat from a disgustingly righteous perspective, I agree it could be an actual slip up from someone who got a "good role" and thought it was town. so fos and a boot to the head etc.

On to the general case, I'm not sure if it is a scum move for certain, I can't see why he would advocate his horridly peaceful sappy sentiment to such lengths if just an attempt at trickery, but for certain it seems a bad move.

I'd just like to say I don't think we should be stringing up 2112 for just advocating a no lynch... he obviously has amateur tactics, but that's a n00b mistake, and I think he acted in what he believed were the best interests. It's not like he wanted a no lynch when he or another was under pressure.

In other words, I think we're being too quick to seize upon one scum tell from an inexperienced player in hopes of catching scum. If this were advocated by, say, pancake, /, or any other experienced player, then yeah, we should pursue it. I'm not willing to hang 2112 for a common newbie mistake.

-Tails

I see little room for doubt that he has prior experience in mafia, one would hardly think an "inexperienced player" would use statistical arguments on typical setups, theoretical reasoning on the traditional fundamentals of mafia, and mafia based (albeit foreign to this site) slang-

Hitting a PR with a RL is stupid.????
Hitting a post restriction with a real life is stupid? What do you mean?

You play mafia often? Power Role/Random Lynch

- if one was just some random newbie who needs to be coddled.
Bar stool of suspicion on Tails for skimming and possibly defending General.

But out of curiosity before I make up my mind General, if you don't mind, Where is your mafia experience from?


On another note, so we may know what we are getting into when hunting down these gut wrenching goodie goodies and wrenching out their guts, any one want to theorize possible roles for the four archetypes?

Priest?
Paladin? maybe a bodyguard or a doc? said to be a steadfast tower, could be bulletproof?
Wizard? inventor? JOAT? could be an investigative type role for cover?
Barbarian?

[zimmah]

i'd think they have really more powerful roles then standard roles, maybe overpowered Joat is one of them, since they're few in number, i think power roles would make up for the fewer numbers, however the VIP also makes up for it to some extent, even then, it will be a major setback if they lose a player or 2 early.

i think they may have some unexpected tricks in their sleeves, especially knowing squirrel.

[spiesr]

Ah, fight getting serious already? Time to steal the good stuff. *inches towards the key to the fine liqueur cabinet*

*Throws fork at /'s hand, just missing and embedding in the wooden cabinet door.*

On another note, so we may know what we are getting into when hunting down these gut wrenching goodie goodies and wrenching out their guts, any one want to theorize possible roles for the four archetypes?

Priest?
Paladin? maybe a bodyguard or a doc? said to be a steadfast tower, could be bulletproof?
Wizard? inventor? JOAT? could be an investigative type role for cover?
Barbarian?

Priest: Doc protection? Maybe some sort of reviver ability?
Paladin: Detect Evil = Investigative power of some nature?
Wizard: Could be pretty much anything, probably a versatile role.
Barbarian: Tracking? Main killing role?

Anyhow I would hazard a guess that most of the possible player character roles had more than one trait associated with them.