The SquirrelMasters' Quest (25/25) Night 1~A quick getaway

[Victor Sullivan]

Player Character?

Yes, that is what I meant by PC.

Good. Haha.

-Sully

[DoomYoshi]

General, rather than arguing against your string, I would like to argue against your strategy as a whole.

Follow-the-Cop doesn't work for quite a few reasons. If the mafia have a single recruit, they can easily recruit the cop. This is not a straw man, as this happened in Albarezzi Mafia. If the mafia have unlimited recruits, they can just keep recruiting CONFIRMED INNOCENT townies. This is not a straw man, as a very similar situation happened in Clue Mafia.

Follow the cop isn't tried very often around here, but when it is - the results are disastrous. For example, look at POTC - nominated for game of the year I must add. At the beginning of the game one player knew the ENTIRE mafia. Did the mafia win? No. Did that player win? No. Did the town win? No. The cult won. That was pretty much uber-follow-the-cop and it still failed.

These are not outlier games. Mods are continuosly trying to one-up each other, and themselves, when creating experimental setups. This game is specifically an experimental setup with a premium prize. That means that Squirell will be pulling no stops. I fully imagine shit will get epic. How can you possibly expect a simple mechanical follow-the-cop to work in a situation like this?

[zimmah]

General, rather than arguing against your string, I would like to argue against your strategy as a whole.

Follow-the-Cop doesn't work for quite a few reasons. If the mafia have a single recruit, they can easily recruit the cop. This is not a straw man, as this happened in Albarezzi Mafia. If the mafia have unlimited recruits, they can just keep recruiting CONFIRMED INNOCENT townies. This is not a straw man, as a very similar situation happened in Clue Mafia.

Follow the cop isn't tried very often around here, but when it is - the results are disastrous. For example, look at POTC - nominated for game of the year I must add. At the beginning of the game one player knew the ENTIRE mafia. Did the mafia win? No. Did that player win? No. Did the town win? No. The cult won. That was pretty much uber-follow-the-cop and it still failed.

These are not outlier games. Mods are continuosly trying to one-up each other, and themselves, when creating experimental setups. This game is specifically an experimental setup with a premium prize. That means that Squirell will be pulling no stops. I fully imagine shit will get epic. How can you possibly expect a simple mechanical follow-the-cop to work in a situation like this?

this discussion leads nowhere and should probably be disccussed in the discussion topic.

[thehippo8]

Just a quick question ... Iliad ... what is your vote based on?

[jonty125]

A hitman would be okay. I don't understand why this would prevent the above plan from working.

Hitman is someone who's kill cannot be blocked or protected (normally mafia aligned but I was one in Egyptian that was town one shot) never played with one who is mafia aligned so I can't say whether they're normally one-shot or unlimited.

[DoomYoshi]

General, rather than arguing against your string, I would like to argue against your strategy as a whole.

Follow-the-Cop doesn't work for quite a few reasons. If the mafia have a single recruit, they can easily recruit the cop. This is not a straw man, as this happened in Albarezzi Mafia. If the mafia have unlimited recruits, they can just keep recruiting CONFIRMED INNOCENT townies. This is not a straw man, as a very similar situation happened in Clue Mafia.

Follow the cop isn't tried very often around here, but when it is - the results are disastrous. For example, look at POTC - nominated for game of the year I must add. At the beginning of the game one player knew the ENTIRE mafia. Did the mafia win? No. Did that player win? No. Did the town win? No. The cult won. That was pretty much uber-follow-the-cop and it still failed.

These are not outlier games. Mods are continuosly trying to one-up each other, and themselves, when creating experimental setups. This game is specifically an experimental setup with a premium prize. That means that Squirell will be pulling no stops. I fully imagine shit will get epic. How can you possibly expect a simple mechanical follow-the-cop to work in a situation like this?

this discussion leads nowhere and should probably be disccussed in the discussion topic.

We have spent the entire day discussing whether pr not follow-the-cop works and you raise the point now?

[TheGeneral2112]

General, rather than arguing against your string, I would like to argue against your strategy as a whole.

Follow-the-Cop doesn't work for quite a few reasons. If the mafia have a single recruit, they can easily recruit the cop. This is not a straw man, as this happened in Albarezzi Mafia. If the mafia have unlimited recruits, they can just keep recruiting CONFIRMED INNOCENT townies. This is not a straw man, as a very similar situation happened in Clue Mafia.

Follow the cop isn't tried very often around here, but when it is - the results are disastrous. For example, look at POTC - nominated for game of the year I must add. At the beginning of the game one player knew the ENTIRE mafia. Did the mafia win? No. Did that player win? No. Did the town win? No. The cult won. That was pretty much uber-follow-the-cop and it still failed.

These are not outlier games. Mods are continuosly trying to one-up each other, and themselves, when creating experimental setups. This game is specifically an experimental setup with a premium prize. That means that Squirell will be pulling no stops. I fully imagine shit will get epic. How can you possibly expect a simple mechanical follow-the-cop to work in a situation like this?

this discussion leads nowhere and should probably be disccussed in the discussion topic.

We have spent the entire day discussing whether pr not follow-the-cop works and you raise the point now?

I believe he is trying to use tact in saying this discussion has gone on for too long; In this thread we should probably exercise a little more gameplay and a little less petty bickering about various games, setups, and strategies.

[/]

I think that TheGeneral is probably town, the claimed information seems to fit despite his unusual (for this site) reluctance to provide said information, if I were to go for a secondary target, i might be inclined to vote victor for his unusual behavior if the case gained more momentum. But for now I will cast my attention to an alternate target I find suspect.

Attack Tailgunn3r

He has been posting every day in other forums since his last post here, from the 12th through the 17th, despite the mods indication of a deadline he has been avoiding all current matters in the game.

said post as I have brought attention to previously and hasn't been responded to obviously-

I'd just like to say I don't think we should be stringing up 2112 for just advocating a no lynch... he obviously has amateur tactics, but that's a n00b mistake, and I think he acted in what he believed were the best interests. It's not like he wanted a no lynch when he or another was under pressure.

In other words, I think we're being too quick to seize upon one scum tell from an inexperienced player in hopes of catching scum. If this were advocated by, say, pancake, /, or any other experienced player, then yeah, we should pursue it. I'm not willing to hang 2112 for a common newbie mistake.

-Tails

I find scummy as it shows a lack of attention to the topic it speaks of, citing General as a newbie despite staggering indication to the contrary, thus skimming.

The other reason I find it suspect is that it has a goodie two shoes approach of protecting the general (on a flawed pretense) this in my opinion may be a "buddying" tactic commonly used by scum, He shows himself as a protector of the person not because he doesn't want him to be lynched or because he sees an actual flaw, but merely so after said person flips town, he can say "See, I knew he was town, shame on you. blah blah righteousness, justice, etc. "

In summary, lurking, skimming, buddying, scumarining, respond and prove you are lurking, or don't and prove you don't care.

[shieldgenerator7]

CONFIRM! I finished page 7, trying t ocatch up and stuff

[chapcrap]

I just caught up from the past 2 days. Got my wisdom teeth out and I'm a little behind.

Anyway, seems like Doom is maybe taking it a little too far. However, I do agree that follow the cop will work in nothing other than a C9 game. This is definitely not that setup. I think that 2112 has realized that by now. And I'm pretty sure he wants to win. That was a silly argument to even make.

My PM does talk of a specific race.

I don't think I have much else to comment on. Seems like a lot of the same back and forth with a little Sully craziness thrown in.

I will say that I agree with / about Tail, so I guess I'll go ahead and Attack Tail.

[ghostly447]

I agree tail is a bit scummy. I am catching up from 2 days due to my unexplained ignorance of the forums. I am sick, so even though I played real time last night, I just didnt feel like reading. There were a few things that caught my eye though.

Safariguy5 claimed orc. No one believes him, just because they didnt get a creature to claim as. I am also an orc. So, I know he is actually CORRECT about claiming as a creature. Now, general, please claim your full name, or I WILL attack you. Because I also find it very fishy that you had a sudden change of heart from "I will be greedy and defend myself" to "I will be dead by D2". However, I am going to leave you with a FOS until I see results from N1.

I am going to say Attack TA1LGUNN3R because of the evidence given by /

I think that TheGeneral is probably town, the claimed information seems to fit despite his unusual (for this site) reluctance to provide said information, if I were to go for a secondary target, i might be inclined to vote victor for his unusual behavior if the case gained more momentum. But for now I will cast my attention to an alternate target I find suspect.

Attack Tailgunn3r

He has been posting every day in other forums since his last post here, from the 12th through the 17th, despite the mods indication of a deadline he has been avoiding all current matters in the game.

said post as I have brought attention to previously and hasn't been responded to obviously-

I'd just like to say I don't think we should be stringing up 2112 for just advocating a no lynch... he obviously has amateur tactics, but that's a n00b mistake, and I think he acted in what he believed were the best interests. It's not like he wanted a no lynch when he or another was under pressure.

In other words, I think we're being too quick to seize upon one scum tell from an inexperienced player in hopes of catching scum. If this were advocated by, say, pancake, /, or any other experienced player, then yeah, we should pursue it. I'm not willing to hang 2112 for a common newbie mistake.

-Tails

I find scummy as it shows a lack of attention to the topic it speaks of, citing General as a newbie despite staggering indication to the contrary, thus skimming.

The other reason I find it suspect is that it has a goodie two shoes approach of protecting the general (on a flawed pretense) this in my opinion may be a "buddying" tactic commonly used by scum, He shows himself as a protector of the person not because he doesn't want him to be lynched or because he sees an actual flaw, but merely so after said person flips town, he can say "See, I knew he was town, shame on you. blah blah righteousness, justice, etc. "

In summary, lurking, skimming, buddying, scumarining, respond and prove you are lurking, or don't and prove you don't care.

[DoomYoshi]

I just caught up from the past 2 days. Got my wisdom teeth out and I'm a little behind.

Anyway, seems like Doom is maybe taking it a little too far. However, I do agree that follow the cop will work in nothing other than a C9 game. This is definitely not that setup. I think that 2112 has realized that by now. And I'm pretty sure he wants to win. That was a silly argument to even make.

My PM does talk of a specific race.

I don't think I have much else to comment on. Seems like a lot of the same back and forth with a little Sully craziness thrown in.

I will say that I agree with / about Tail, so I guess I'll go ahead and Attack Tail.

C9 was specifically designed so that follow the cop wouldn't work since any setup which follow the cop works in is a broken setup and not worth playing.

[soundman]

Besides Doom, I think the rest of us are past the General's gameplay stuff. I find it slightly scummy that Doom is still pushing on General but not enough for a FOS or attack. I think / is on to something with Tail and will go with what he's got. The one thing I'm sure of is that General is an experienced player (just not with our style). And we had that figured out before Tail's post.

Attack Tail

[zimmah]

yes tail seems lurking big time, attack tail like a kitty.

[thehippo8]

Agreed, I support /'s insight ... attack tail

Click image to enlarge.

[safariguy5]

Well that's interesting. If town roles are Village with no race, we may have mostly town human roles. Which would actually make it easier for mafia to blend in as they don't have to guess a monster type in a fakeclaim.

So I will Attack Victor Sullivan. The thing with the tails case I think mostly boils down to a certain amount of inactivity and defending thegeneral (which several other people like Rodion have also done). Sully has been quite active, and he's basically making these little posts that have very little substance and just sort of shows he's around without taking a hard stand.

[chapcrap]

Well that's interesting. If town roles are Village with no race, we may have mostly town human roles. Which would actually make it easier for mafia to blend in as they don't have to guess a monster type in a fakeclaim.

So I will Attack Victor Sullivan. The thing with the tails case I think mostly boils down to a certain amount of inactivity and defending thegeneral (which several other people like Rodion have also done). Sully has been quite active, and he's basically making these little posts that have very little substance and just sort of shows he's around without taking a hard stand.

The thing with Tails isn't about defending 2112, it's about the fact that he was skimming. He said 2112 was a noob, even after it had been discussed that he wasn't a noob. That's skimming. And with the flurry of activity we've had, he's absence is noticeable.

You defend and try to deflect attention away from him and attempt to change the reason / made a case against Tails. Hmm...

[pancakemix]

I pretty much agree with what's been said about Tails, though I'd point out that it was more that 2112 was saying things that coming from a newb would just be illogical. It makes no sense not to vote for him if you don't think he's got experience.

That said, it's better if that voting doesn't get out of hand, and so I'll hold off on voting tails for now pending his response.

[safariguy5]

Well that's interesting. If town roles are Village with no race, we may have mostly town human roles. Which would actually make it easier for mafia to blend in as they don't have to guess a monster type in a fakeclaim.

So I will Attack Victor Sullivan. The thing with the tails case I think mostly boils down to a certain amount of inactivity and defending thegeneral (which several other people like Rodion have also done). Sully has been quite active, and he's basically making these little posts that have very little substance and just sort of shows he's around without taking a hard stand.

The thing with Tails isn't about defending 2112, it's about the fact that he was skimming. He said 2112 was a noob, even after it had been discussed that he wasn't a noob. That's skimming. And with the flurry of activity we've had, he's absence is noticeable.

You defend and try to deflect attention away from him and attempt to change the reason / made a case against Tails. Hmm...

That depends on how you define noob. Noob to mafia no, but noob to CC mafia definitely. And I'm not deflecting attention. I'm just stating that I think Sully is scummier and that's why I'm voting for Sully. No reason to give him a "free pass" for scummy behavior just because that's how he is every game. Someone has to call him out for it.

[drake_259]

unattack general

Well hes proffesion is obviously a doctor then and is highly believeable.

So we have a mixure of races and classes although i doubt any scum would be any of the chosen 4 classes so they will still have to make up a class or a race which they will decide on what powers they chose.

[Victor Sullivan]

Well that's interesting. If town roles are Village with no race, we may have mostly town human roles. Which would actually make it easier for mafia to blend in as they don't have to guess a monster type in a fakeclaim.

So I will Attack Victor Sullivan. The thing with the tails case I think mostly boils down to a certain amount of inactivity and defending thegeneral (which several other people like Rodion have also done). Sully has been quite active, and he's basically making these little posts that have very little substance and just sort of shows he's around without taking a hard stand.

The thing with Tails isn't about defending 2112, it's about the fact that he was skimming. He said 2112 was a noob, even after it had been discussed that he wasn't a noob. That's skimming. And with the flurry of activity we've had, he's absence is noticeable.

You defend and try to deflect attention away from him and attempt to change the reason / made a case against Tails. Hmm...

That depends on how you define noob. Noob to mafia no, but noob to CC mafia definitely. And I'm not deflecting attention. I'm just stating that I think Sully is scummier and that's why I'm voting for Sully. No reason to give him a "free pass" for scummy behavior just because that's how he is every game. Someone has to call him out for it.

Nonetheless, it's not generally going to be to the (evil) town's benefit. I'm not really sure what you want me to do, safari, as I did take a stand with regard to TheGeneral - I voted for him! And if I remember correctly, I wasn't tardy to the party on that wagon. Not to mention I pressured him to give us us his role name. So for a Day 1 Sully, I've really not done badly.

I'll wait for a vote count to decide as to what I want to do with regard to Tails. For now, I will retreat, given TheGeneral's name claim.

-Sully

[drunkmonkey]

I'm not counting out the case on Tails, but I think the case on Sully is better. If you sort by author, and view the 2.5 pages of Sully's posts, you'll find a lot of posts, but not much (if any) real substance to be used toward cases:

Spoiler

Surrender

Retreat! Fall back, men! We're in over our heads!

-Sully

Attack TheGeneral2112

I'm still angry from the other game

-Sully

I am scum, General. Don't you understand the backwardness of this game? Or perhaps you do, and you are an adventurer...

-Sully

Finger of Suspicion (FOS) = Readying Attack on (RAO)?
Finger of Suspicion (FOS) = Line of Sight (LOS)?

*shrugs*

-Sully

Sully in particular doesn't seem interested in discussions, metagaming here, and is rushing to night.

-Sully

By the devils! I've missed a lot.

Order a drink from the bartender, and ask how his relationship with his wife has been since they got into that big argument that one time.

-Sully

I'd just like to say I don't think we should be stringing up 2112 for just advocating a no lynch... he obviously has amateur tactics, but that's a n00b mistake, and I think he acted in what he believed were the best interests. It's not like he wanted a no lynch when he or another was under pressure.

In other words, I think we're being too quick to seize upon one scum tell from an inexperienced player in hopes of catching scum. If this were advocated by, say, pancake, /, or any other experienced player, then yeah, we should pursue it. I'm not willing to hang 2112 for a common newbie mistake.

-Tails

At the same time you must admit it's a better lead than most leads Day 1. If not TheGeneral, then who else?

-Sully

Hm, interesting point on spiesr. Damn, how lucky are we to get two cases Day 1?

PQR spiesr

-Sully

un-attack = retreat ?

-Sully

zimmah - it's called a joke vote. I in no way tried to persuade people to surrender. It was my first post! How could I be voting seriously at that stage in the game?

-Sully

I've been busy up the broohaha today. I'll post something of substance tomorrow

Sorry! Er, I mean, uh, suck it up, cupcake!

Grawr?

-Sully

according to your strategy (which honestly only leads to failure) it's a benefit for town to have a claimed and confirmed power role as early as day 2, yet, you're furious that we made you claim doctor (which is a power role too) by your logic, shouldn't you have been happy to take the lead, now that you're a claimed power role?

Well, not every power role would be equal in that consideration. Having a claimed doc doesn't do you any good as a doc action will almost never catch a scum, whereas a handful of other roles could.

Right, but either way, Follow the Cop is a very brittle strategy that can easily be derailed by a number of things. Roleblocking is the main thing, but busdriving, framing, and cop sanity all can lead to bad results.

Not to mention that it still doesn't reliably find the Godfather.

Though I'm not so sure one can reliably say there is a Godfather in this game, as the leader, the priest, I wouldn't expect to come up as a baddie upon investigation

-Sully

Yes, you just misinterpreted the use of "as" in that sentence.

-Sully

As for the votes, If you guys want to start using retreat as an unvote, that works for me.

Thanks for the VC. Interesting to see that saf, doom, VS, iliad, zimmah and drake are still on the town doctor. Makes a lot of sense...

Yup!

My role does not mention a race as well, General, though it does provide me my class (i.e. paladin, warrior, wizard, etc.). You still have yet to name claim. Your role PM couldn't have been that vague.

-Sully

My role does not mention a race as well, General, though it does provide me my class (i.e. paladin, warrior, wizard, etc.). You still have yet to name claim. Your role PM couldn't have been that vague.

Umm, are you trying to drop as many hints that you are one of the PCs as you can? Are you a jester or something now, or just that absent minded?

Erm... What?

-Sully

Just what sort of role do you have where you are a PC class?

*shrugs* It's how my role is. I can't really say anything more without claiming.

-Sully

Player Character?

-Sully

Player Character?

Yes, that is what I meant by PC.

Good. Haha.

-Sully

Also, since the case on Tails is based skimming & lurking, I'd like to emphasize the following post:

I'd just like to say I don't think we should be stringing up 2112 for just advocating a no lynch... he obviously has amateur tactics, but that's a n00b mistake, and I think he acted in what he believed were the best interests. It's not like he wanted a no lynch when he or another was under pressure.

In other words, I think we're being too quick to seize upon one scum tell from an inexperienced player in hopes of catching scum. If this were advocated by, say, pancake, /, or any other experienced player, then yeah, we should pursue it. I'm not willing to hang 2112 for a common newbie mistake.

-Tails

At the same time you must admit it's a better lead than most leads Day 1. If not TheGeneral, then who else?

-Sully

Sully agreed with the post that's being used as the accusation for skimming, so he's been skimming & feigning activity.

Attack Victor Sullivan

[zimmah]

Well that's interesting. If town roles are Village with no race, we may have mostly town human roles. Which would actually make it easier for mafia to blend in as they don't have to guess a monster type in a fakeclaim.

So I will Attack Victor Sullivan. The thing with the tails case I think mostly boils down to a certain amount of inactivity and defending thegeneral (which several other people like Rodion have also done). Sully has been quite active, and he's basically making these little posts that have very little substance and just sort of shows he's around without taking a hard stand.

The thing with Tails isn't about defending 2112, it's about the fact that he was skimming. He said 2112 was a noob, even after it had been discussed that he wasn't a noob. That's skimming. And with the flurry of activity we've had, he's absence is noticeable.

You defend and try to deflect attention away from him and attempt to change the reason / made a case against Tails. Hmm...

this is actually the second time safari is trying to steer away from the main case. while not contributing to a new case.

[pancakemix]

Well that's interesting. If town roles are Village with no race, we may have mostly town human roles. Which would actually make it easier for mafia to blend in as they don't have to guess a monster type in a fakeclaim.

So I will Attack Victor Sullivan. The thing with the tails case I think mostly boils down to a certain amount of inactivity and defending thegeneral (which several other people like Rodion have also done). Sully has been quite active, and he's basically making these little posts that have very little substance and just sort of shows he's around without taking a hard stand.

The thing with Tails isn't about defending 2112, it's about the fact that he was skimming. He said 2112 was a noob, even after it had been discussed that he wasn't a noob. That's skimming. And with the flurry of activity we've had, he's absence is noticeable.

You defend and try to deflect attention away from him and attempt to change the reason / made a case against Tails. Hmm...

this is actually the second time safari is trying to steer away from the main case. while not contributing to a new case.

Er, no he isn't.He gave his reasons why he didn't buy into the Tails case. That's perfectly reasonable, and there's no reason why we can't have multiple candidates at once. Methinks you're trying to read too much into this.

[zimmah]

Well that's interesting. If town roles are Village with no race, we may have mostly town human roles. Which would actually make it easier for mafia to blend in as they don't have to guess a monster type in a fakeclaim.

So I will Attack Victor Sullivan. The thing with the tails case I think mostly boils down to a certain amount of inactivity and defending thegeneral (which several other people like Rodion have also done). Sully has been quite active, and he's basically making these little posts that have very little substance and just sort of shows he's around without taking a hard stand.

The thing with Tails isn't about defending 2112, it's about the fact that he was skimming. He said 2112 was a noob, even after it had been discussed that he wasn't a noob. That's skimming. And with the flurry of activity we've had, he's absence is noticeable.

You defend and try to deflect attention away from him and attempt to change the reason / made a case against Tails. Hmm...

this is actually the second time safari is trying to steer away from the main case. while not contributing to a new case.

Er, no he isn't.He gave his reasons why he didn't buy into the Tails case. That's perfectly reasonable, and there's no reason why we can't have multiple candidates at once. Methinks you're trying to read too much into this.

safari was acusing me of steering away the case while i had even better and more reasons, and now you defend safari for doing the same what he accused me of, and doing it twice?