Eurasia Map [Old thread]

[natty dread]

This will be playable when the map is done. I'll be making games when the beta testing begins, if you hang around in the foundry you can get to those games.

[Djangoo]

looks great, cant wait to play it

[natty dread]

Thanks, glad you like it.

[iancanton]

I guess I'm just kind of anxious to start working on the small version, as it'll probably take some tweaking on the small to get everything fitting properly.

understood. there won't be too much unnecessary delay, as u can probably sense, with andy popping in from time to time.

I know about the Norway border, it's just that the strip of land connecting Norway to Murmansk is so small that it'd be really hard to see... especially on the small. I can try an impassable there, see if it works..

not bad. i just noticed that european russia is missing from the legend though. is it still a +7?

Anyway: I don't think I want to add any more shared regions to the map - they tend to increase the bonus bloat, and there's currently a logical system of one shared region per superbonus, I'd rather keep it at that. Besides, small areas like Taiwan would work very poorly as shared regions - the stripes would be hard to see on such a small area.

there is some truth in that. we had stripes on the korea map too.

Also, having Taiwan as part of China can be seen as a political statement, just like the Israel issue....

except that taiwan's official name is republic of china and the current government's policy (probably supported by about 50% of the population) is eventual unification with mainland china. if disputed, then it's not a political statement, simply stating a fact. if undisputed, the bonus could be called taiwan & south china but not simply south china, for the reason that u give.

If an extra bonus is to be added to China, I'm afraid it would have to be another 3-region bonus, ie: Hainan, Guangdong, Sichuan.

the chinese bonus division that u have, in other words excluding taiwan, works if u divide guangdong, with the northern part being called hubei. does that mean u have to remove a region from somewhere else, such as ash sharqiyah, east iran or evenkia?

if u put some mountains north of turkmenistan, then it helps to reduce the turkics' border count to 4, in line with its bonus. mountains north of laos can do the same for indochina if desired.

That said, I can remove the route between Severnaya and Siberian islands. This will reduce the mobility from Europe to East Siberia. I could probably also remove the Svalbard - Novaya connection. But I think the others should stay.

i think that works now. we no longer have a whole row of regions that, when u draw a gameplay diagram, turns those islands into just more land at the top. someone coming from nordics will be directed southward toward baikal or novosibirsk, which is what i wanted to see.

ian.

[natty dread]

not bad. i just noticed that european russia is missing from the legend though. is it still a +7?

It's right there under Eastern Europe... it's a +6 now.

except that taiwan's official name is republic of china and the current government's policy (probably supported by about 50% of the population) is eventual unification with mainland china. if disputed, then it's not a political statement, simply stating a fact. if undisputed, the bonus could be called taiwan & south china but not simply south china, for the reason that u give.

Yeah... if it's supported by 50% of the population, then it's also opposed by 50% of the population.

Either way, it's currently not a part of China, and China has a policy of not recognizing the independence of Taiwan and pretending like Taiwan is still a part of China. So I think it works better as part of Far East.

the chinese bonus division that u have, in other words excluding taiwan, works if u divide guangdong, with the northern part being called hubei. does that mean u have to remove a region from somewhere else, such as ash sharqiyah, east iran or evenkia?

No, it doesn't mean that, but it would mean I would have to add another neutral, and then Hainan wouldn't need to be neutral anymore so I would in fact have 2 unnecessary neutrals on the map... with the current arrangement, the neutrals work.

I think I'm going to keep South China as is. It's another 3-region bonus, sure, but it's in the East, and it's not as far to the edge as Britain. I also think it creates a good balance against the west.

if u put some mountains north of turkmenistan, then it helps to reduce the turkics' border count to 4, in line with its bonus. mountains north of laos can do the same for indochina if desired.

Turkics was renamed to central asia btw... mountains for turkmenistan, well the border there is a bit funky shaped so I'll see how they fit. For Laos, I don't know... it seems like that would mean lowering the value of Indochina, and thus lowering the value of southeast Asia, and I don't know if I want to do that...

[natty dread]

Added mountains to turkmenistan.

Click image to enlarge.

[natty dread]

I was thinking, bonus drops for 4-region bonuses might still be somewhat of a problem for 2-player games on a map this size.

So I figured I would code in 2 starting positions, so they would only be used in 2-player games, and each would contain 6 regions, one from each 4-region bonus.

This would also increase the starting regions to 44 for each player in 2-player games, which would mean it would be harder to drop your opponent below the +10 region bonus.

[AndyDufresne]

except that taiwan's official name is republic of china and the current government's policy (probably supported by about 50% of the population) is eventual unification with mainland china. if disputed, then it's not a political statement, simply stating a fact. if undisputed, the bonus could be called taiwan & south china but not simply south china, for the reason that u give.

Yeah... if it's supported by 50% of the population, then it's also opposed by 50% of the population.

Either way, it's currently not a part of China, and China has a policy of not recognizing the independence of Taiwan and pretending like Taiwan is still a part of China. So I think it works better as part of Far East.

The current policy of both ROC and PRC is the "One China Principle," which I remember reading quite a bit about a decade ago.

...The Consensus, as described by observers, is that, on the subject of the "One China principle", both sides recognise there is only one China - both mainland China and Taiwan belong to the same China, but both sides agree to verbally express the meaning of that one China according to their own individual definition...The PRC's position is that there is one, undivided sovereignty of China, and that the PRC is the sole legitimate representative of that sovereignty. The ROC's position is that there is one, undivided sovereignty of China, and that the ROC is the sole legitimate representative of that sovereignty.

--Andy

[natty dread]

Basically, they both claim to be the Real China and the other is just a fake impostor china.

So yeah, the situation is complicated. I think it's best to have Taiwan in far east, both thematically and for gameplay reasons.

Anyway, starting positions... I was thinking of these:

#1 - Spain, Switzerland, Poland, Astana, Nepal, N. Nei Mongol
#2 - France, Austria, Belarus, Qaraghandy, Assam, Liaoning

[natty dread]

Ok, since there's no complaints, these starting positions will be used for 2-player games.

Is there any further gameplay concerns? I think I've addressed pretty much everything that has been presented so far. If I've missed anything let me know...

[Victor Sullivan]

The positions look good. I might add Borneo and Honshu to the first position and Sulawesi and Kyushu to the second just for good measure, though I don't think it's necessary. I assume you won't do underlying neutrals?

-Sully

[natty dread]

You assume correctly... how would I even do that without having tons of neutrals on all 3-8 player games...

[Victor Sullivan]

You assume correctly... how would I even do that without having tons of neutrals on all 3-8 player games...

I figured. The rest of my post?

-Sully

[natty dread]

Those areas have 5 and 6 regions, respectively, so I don't think there's any worry of them being dropped in 2-player games.

[lostatlimbo]

I agree with the others that Taiwan should be part of the China bonus. I don't care about the details and the politics. Gameplay wise Taiwan is in a terrible spot. Its a bottleneck spot and it will too hard to hold that for just +3.

[natty dread]

I don't care about the details and the politics.

Such "details" like Taiwan simply not being a part of China? I don't make up these borders out of my head, you know...

Gameplay wise Taiwan is in a terrible spot. Its a bottleneck spot and it will too hard to hold that for just +3.

Sorry but I have to disagree. Being a bottleneck is an advantage for a bonus, not a disadvantage. I don't see Taiwan being a highly contested region, the only reason anyone would want to go through it is to assault Far East or Southeast Asia, both not very valuable areas... also whoever holds Far East is likely to expand southward or to China, so this is unlikely to be a huge issue.

[lostatlimbo]

Such "details" like Taiwan simply not being a part of China? I don't make up these borders out of my head, you know... ;)

Its not part of Japan or Korea either!

The rest of your map isn't tied to current political borders - its tied to geography and gameplay. Taiwan as part of the Far East makes no sense in either regard.

Why hold just this one region to a different standard? What about the dozen countries 'absorbed' into larger countries throughout Europe? What about Israel and Lebanon mingling in Levant? None of those are split by modern political boundaries.

Throughout the map you've grouped regions primarily by geography, yet in this one region you refuse to apply that same standard.

Just be consistent!

I don't see Taiwan being a highly contested region...

Time will show that you are wrong about this.

[natty dread]

Its not part of Japan or Korea either!

Well that's good, because there's no such bonus as "Japan and Korea" on the map.

Taiwan as part of the Far East makes no sense in either regard.

It makes perfect sense in both regards, much more than having it be a part of China.

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree here.

[natty dread]

What I could do is connect Guangdong to Philippines. This would give an alternate route between China and Southeast, making Taiwan less "contested".

[iancanton]

Taiwan as part of the Far East makes no sense in either regard.

It makes perfect sense in both regards, much more than having it be a part of China.

taiwan as part of south china does make some sense because it avoids the creation of a 3-region bonus if china is divided differently. politically, the current taiwan government does claim to be the real china.

What I could do is connect Guangdong to Philippines. This would give an alternate route between China and Southeast, making Taiwan less "contested".

if u choose to keep taiwan in the far east bonus (or even if u don't), then this is a reasonable addition. the name of taiwan, if this happens, will need to be changed to taiwan roc to avoid accusations that we're taking sides on the taiwan political issue.

when u mention share bonuses causing bonus bloat, this is true. mountains between delhi and nepal, plus mountains between magadan and khabarovsk, can mitigate this by letting the sub-bonuses be reduced while keeping the super-bonuses the same to give some incentive to hold the super-bonuses.

north and south nei mongol do not exist as proper political entities. if u join them together as one region and add jilin province between heilongjiang and liaoning, then mountains to the east will give an interior region to both manchuria and mongolia and, just as above, let us reduce the bonus bloat caused by the shared region. u might need to move the border of inner mongolia slightly to the left of the real border to give room for the troop count.

ian.

[natty dread]

Ok... firstly, I think I'll want to keep China as is. I think it works as it is now, even with the 3-region bonus. I think it's fine to have one easy bonus like that to balance all the easy bonuses on the west side. It's also true that there's no political division into North/south Nei Mongol, but the area is such an inconvenient shape that I feel keeping it as whole wouldn't be purposeful, as it'd give a too quick route from inner China to Siberia and vice versa.

However, I will change Taiwan to Taiwan R.O.C., and add the sea route between it and Guangdong.

As for mountains between Delphi/Nepal, I can add them but East India is already a 3, and I don't think reducing it to 2 would be reasonable. The same is true of East Siberia, which is also a 3. I can add the mountains though, as they will make the current bonus values more reasonable.

[natty dread]

Well, I ended up reducing East Siberia to 2, since it is now so isolated. But East India should still stay at 3 I think.

I think the gameplay is now pretty much as good as it gets... Maybe we could get this stickied?

Click image to enlarge.

[iancanton]

Ok... firstly, I think I'll want to keep China as is. I think it works as it is now, even with the 3-region bonus. I think it's fine to have one easy bonus like that to balance all the easy bonuses on the west side.

accepted, with 3 neutrals on hainan.

It's also true that there's no political division into North/south Nei Mongol, but the area is such an inconvenient shape that I feel keeping it as whole wouldn't be purposeful, as it'd give a too quick route from inner China to Siberia and vice versa.

nei mongol is actually a good shape that turns two regions (east mongolia and jilin - the latter after adding eastern mountains) into non-border regions, enabling us to reduce the bonuses for these 4-region zones somewhat. mountains between baikal and nei mongol will slow down any attack into siberia by forcing it thru heilongjiang.

except for this one thing above, i'm satisfied with the regions, borders and connections and do not have any current intention to ask u to make other changes on these matters.

However, I will change Taiwan to Taiwan R.O.C., and add the sea route between it and Guangdong.

i don't think everyone will be happy with taiwan, no matter where u put it. let's hope this is a good political compromise.

As for mountains between Delphi/Nepal, I can add them but East India is already a 3, and I don't think reducing it to 2 would be reasonable. The same is true of East Siberia, which is also a 3. I can add the mountains though, as they will make the current bonus values more reasonable.

agreed on both counts. west india becomes +4, down from +5, with the super-bonus remaining the same +9, since the external borders haven't changed.

ian.

[natty dread]

nei mongol is actually a good shape that turns two regions (east mongolia and jilin - the latter after adding eastern mountains) into non-border regions, enabling us to reduce the bonuses for these 4-region zones somewhat. mountains between baikal and nei mongol will slow down any attack into siberia by forcing it thru heilongjiang.

Well, then there's just the problem that adding Jilin between Heilongjiang/Liaoning would make the area way too crowded, and I'm not sure if it would work on the small map... the numbers probably wouldn't fit well. There's a similar concern about adding mountains between Nei Mongol/Baikal, since this would leave the gap between the mountains very small, and it would likely be too hard to see the border of Baikal/Heilongjiang, especially on the small version.

The division of Nei Mongol originally came about because I first took the largest definition of Manchuria there is, then drew those borders of Manchuria, and it turned out it only contained half of Nei Mongol. I then later made South Nei Mongol and made it partially part of Manchuria, since it's the same province.

So I didn't just decide the division in Nei Mongol randomly, for what it's worth.

Anyway, how about I just add mountains between North Korea and Liaoning? This would reduce the borders of Manchuria by one and I could then reduce it to 3, I think.

agreed on both counts. west india becomes +4

I can do that, yeah. However I did end up reducing East Siberia to 2, firstly since it's so secluded, and also I had forgot I had removed the sea route from the Siberian islands which enables East Siberia to be held with only 2 borders if you also hold those islands.

[natty dread]

Ok, changes: West india = 4, Manchuria = 3, mountains added between Liaoning/North Korea reducing Manchuria to 3 borders. Mongolia already has 3 borders, and I don't think it needs reducing.

Click image to enlarge.