Eurasia Map [Old thread]

[natty dread]

Maybe if I wish hard enough a GP stamp will materialize itself in this thread...

[Victor Sullivan]

You missed Tibet and Evenkia Not that it really matters, since they'll prolly be okay.

In the meantime, shall we recite Shakespeare?

-Sully

[isaiah40]

Everything looks good to me, just waiting on Ian to give it a look over again

[natty dread]

You missed Tibet and Evenkia

And Faroe and Greece. And Poland, Belarus & Baltics. But you can imagine the numbers there...

Everything looks good to me, just waiting on Ian to give it a look over again

I hear ya.

Meanwhile, here's a colourblind test, which I think should be ok: the minimap shows which bonuses belong to which superbonuses, and all the bonuses within the same superbonus are distinguishable from each other.

Click image to enlarge.

[J_Indr]

Meanwhile, here's a colourblind test, which I think should be ok: the minimap shows which bonuses belong to which superbonuses, and all the bonuses within the same superbonus are distinguishable from each other.

Hmm.. I think Japan can be a problem in the second test. It seems it's part of Siberian bonus rather than Far East; due to it being on Island, it is actually hard to tell on the small map where it belongs; and N. Korea - Primorsky and Sakhalin - Hokkaido boundaries are not absolutely clear. Could you shift around colours in the Far East, perhaps?

[natty dread]

I'll make some slight adjustments there, but I don't think too drastic measures are needed there. The colourblind tests are only approximations, they're not 100% accurate representations of what colourblind people actually see, so they shouldn't be followed religiously...

[natty dread]

Update. Colours fixed.

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

[natty dread]

Here's how the updated version looks with deuteronopia filters

Click image to enlarge.

[natty dread]

The only gameplay thing I'm really unsure of at the moment is, if I should increase The West superbonus to 21 or keep it at 20. Everything else seems to work pretty well, to me.

Also: I made some improvements to the edges of the small image, they looked a bit blurry.

Click image to enlarge.

[Djangoo]

I'd say keep it at 20.

Countries at the edge of the map usually have an advantage.

[natty dread]

I had somehow drawn the sea routes wrong on the small version - the lines were too thick due to a small mistake. I fixed that and now they look as they should.

Click image to enlarge.

[Gillipig]

This will no doubt be your most successful map in terms of number of games played on it! Looking forward to play on it!

[iancanton]

reducing near east from +6 to +5 (it has only 4 borders) is the only quibble i have on bonuses.

Mongolia already has 3 borders, and I don't think it needs reducing.

I think Mongolia could be reduced to 2, as it's another 3-region bonus... although, unlike the other 3-region bonuses, it has 3 borders and can't be reduced to 2, and it's also in a more central location.

this was news to me, so i had to read it again and look at the map. sure enough, it's true!

although south nei mongol is striped light and dark pink, i had assumed that it was disputed between manchuria and mongolia, not between manchuria and east china, and my previous comments are based on that. this assumption is perfectly natural, not only because of the logic that makes mongolia one of the parties that disputes inner mongolia, but also because of the wall, which does not do anything to stop one bonus from attacking another (and simply separates inner mongolia from east china).

nei mongol is actually a good shape that turns two regions (east mongolia and jilin - the latter after adding eastern mountains) into non-border regions, enabling us to reduce the bonuses for these 4-region zones somewhat. mountains between baikal and nei mongol will slow down any attack into siberia by forcing it thru heilongjiang.

Well, then there's just the problem that adding Jilin between Heilongjiang/Liaoning would make the area way too crowded, and I'm not sure if it would work on the small map... the numbers probably wouldn't fit well. There's a similar concern about adding mountains between Nei Mongol/Baikal, since this would leave the gap between the mountains very small, and it would likely be too hard to see the border of Baikal/Heilongjiang, especially on the small version.

i don't see the issue about adding jilin, especially as heilongjiang is a decent size just now.

The division of Nei Mongol originally came about because I first took the largest definition of Manchuria there is, then drew those borders of Manchuria, and it turned out it only contained half of Nei Mongol. I then later made South Nei Mongol and made it partially part of Manchuria, since it's the same province.

manchuria does not exist either as a country or a group of provinces and hasn't done for many years. its nearest equivalent is called north-east china and is made up of heilongjiang, jilin and liaoning. a fourth province, nei mongol (inner mongolia), can be added for gameplay purposes to avoid a 3-region bonus.

merging north nei mongol with south nei mongol, then making it disputed between manchuria and mongolia (instead of between manchuria and east china) enables us to lose a 3-region bonus (and a starting neutral), as well as retain the integrity of provincial borders. this is the last piece in the jigsaw before the gameplay stamp.

Anyway, how about I just add mountains between North Korea and Liaoning? This would reduce the borders of Manchuria by one and I could then reduce it to 3, I think.

this is good and applies even given the above. the border is actually a river, but u have no rivers, so mountains serve the same purpose.

a graphics issue concerning malaysia. the part of malaysia shown is west malaysia. east malaysia, which is the larger part of malaysia, forms the entire north-western coast of the island of borneo, along with the micro-state of brunei. malaysia can be shown correctly, without changing gameplay connections, by putting the troop count in the sea and either stretching the text to cover both parts or calling the area malaysia & brunei (which ought to be long enough to reach both parts).

ian.

[natty dread]

reducing near east from +6 to +5 (it has only 4 borders) is the only quibble i have on bonuses.

That can be done. But should I then also reduce the Middle East superbonus by 1? Seems like an additional +5 for the area is a bit too much...

i don't see the issue about adding jilin, especially as heilongjiang is a decent size just now.

Look at the small version, the one with army numbers on. I can't squeeze in anything in that area.

manchuria does not exist either as a country or a group of provinces and hasn't done for many years.

Manchuria is however a cultural area, and I think it provides flavor for the map. Siberia doesn't really exist as a political entity either...

its nearest equivalent is called north-east china and is made up of heilongjiang, jilin and liaoning. a fourth province, nei mongol (inner mongolia), can be added for gameplay purposes to avoid a 3-region bonus.

merging north nei mongol with south nei mongol, then making it disputed between manchuria and mongolia (instead of between manchuria and east china) enables us to lose a 3-region bonus (and a starting neutral), as well as retain the integrity of provincial borders. this is the last piece in the jigsaw before the gameplay stamp.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree here. I think I've done pretty well on other things here, made changes you've asked or came up with compromises when we disagree on something. But this is just something that doesn't seem feasible to me.

Firstly, like I said, I can't add Jilin. The area is just too crowded on the small version, squeezing in another region there just isn't going to work.

Secondly, I still don't like the idea of merging Nei Mongol into one region. And without the addition of Jilin, which I can't do, merging them is also something that can't be done, because it would throw off the region balance.

Also, even if I were to make Mongolia not a 3-region bonus, it wouldn't mean I could get rid of a starting neutral - I would just need to move it somewhere else, the neutral amounts need to be what they are for the drops to be optimal. This way, at least the neutral serves a purpose, preventing a bonus drop there.

Trust me, I'm not turning down this suggestion lightly - you've been giving really good feedback on this map so far, and I've been struggling trying to come up with some kind of compromise that would satisfy us both on this issue, but I just can't figure out anything that I think would work better than the current arrangement. I just think the way it is currently is the best option overall.

a graphics issue concerning malaysia. the part of malaysia shown is west malaysia. east malaysia, which is the larger part of malaysia, forms the entire north-western coast of the island of borneo, along with the micro-state of brunei. malaysia can be shown correctly, without changing gameplay connections, by putting the troop count in the sea and either stretching the text to cover both parts or calling the area malaysia & brunei (which ought to be long enough to reach both parts).

I know about this, it actually is the reason why I made Malaysia a split region between the two bonuses.

I could colour part of Borneo with the split region colours, and just leave it without army number, but I'm just not sure if this would make it less clear...

[natty dread]

Here's the bonus value for Near East & Middle East reduced, to 5 and 21 respectively.

I can also change the neutral in Zavkhan to a 3. But apart from that, I just really don't see any better way of arranging the northern parts of East Asia. I know the current solution isn't perfect, few things are... but I just think it's the best option available.

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

[natty dread]

Ok, there's one alternate solution I could go for:

- Making South Nei Mongol between Mongolia & Manchuria, instead of Manchuria & East China
- Change both Mongolia and East China bonus values to 3:s
- Add mountains between East Mongolia & North Nei Mongol to keep Mongolia border count at 3
- Remove neutral from Zavkhan and Egypt, instead make Maghreb and African Horn neutral 1:s - this is not optimal, since it provides easy cards for 1-3 people, but any higher would make the whole African route too irrelevant, and I really don't want that...

This would get rid of a 3-region bonus, it would make East China an easier bonus, and it would keep the current regions as they are.

I still prefer the current arrangement, but I'd be willing to make this change if it gets this gameplay stamped...

[Geger]

a graphics issue concerning malaysia. the part of malaysia shown is west malaysia. east malaysia, which is the larger part of malaysia, forms the entire north-western coast of the island of borneo, along with the micro-state of brunei. malaysia can be shown correctly, without changing gameplay connections, by putting the troop count in the sea and either stretching the text to cover both parts or calling the area malaysia & brunei (which ought to be long enough to reach both parts).

I know about this, it actually is the reason why I made Malaysia a split region between the two bonuses.

I could colour part of Borneo with the split region colours, and just leave it without army number, but I'm just not sure if this would make it less clear...

Maybe you change the name to Malaya. This was the old name for the peninsula before Sarawak, Sabah (both are in Borneo) and Singapore (3S) joined and formed Malaysia

[natty dread]

You mean this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Malaya

I don't know, it seems a bit odd to use a country name that is no longer in use...

[Geger]

You mean this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Malaya

I don't know, it seems a bit odd to use a country name that is no longer in use...

I mean this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_Peninsula

Btw most regions on this map are not in form of countries, right? So why do you have to make an exception to Malaysia.

I prefer to leave this area as it now. In other words, dividing Borneo's not a good idea.

[natty dread]

Btw most regions on this map are not in form of countries, right? So why do you have to make an exception to Malaysia.

Because I don't go purposefully adding inaccuracies on the map... only when they serve a gameplay etc. purpose.

On another note, back to more important business... here's a version that shows what the map would look like with the proposed changes - large map only:

Click image to enlarge.

[iancanton]

reducing near east from +6 to +5 (it has only 4 borders) is the only quibble i have on bonuses.

That can be done. But should I then also reduce the Middle East superbonus by 1? Seems like an additional +5 for the area is a bit too much...

agreed.

i don't see the issue about adding jilin, especially as heilongjiang is a decent size just now.

Look at the small version, the one with army numbers on. I can't squeeze in anything in that area.

Ok, there's one alternate solution I could go for:

- Making South Nei Mongol between Mongolia & Manchuria, instead of Manchuria & East China
- Change both Mongolia and East China bonus values to 3:s
- Add mountains between East Mongolia & North Nei Mongol to keep Mongolia border count at 3

This would get rid of a 3-region bonus, it would make East China an easier bonus, and it would keep the current regions as they are.

that's a decent compromise and i'm happy to take this as the final gameplay layout if u are. we need better names than north and south nei mongol, but that can come later (along with the other naming issues on the map).

Remove neutral from Zavkhan and Egypt, instead make Maghreb and African Horn neutral 1:s - this is not optimal, since it provides easy cards for 1-3 people, but any higher would make the whole African route too irrelevant, and I really don't want that...

simply moving the current neutral from zavkhan to south nei mongol will serve our purpose. south nei mongol is needed for two 4-region bonuses, so this reduces the chances of a bonus drop for player 1 in 1v1 by about 2 percentage points.

ian.

[natty dread]

that's a decent compromise and i'm happy to take this as the final gameplay layout if u are. we need better names than north and south nei mongol, but that can come later (along with the other naming issues on the map).

Ok, I'm happy to hear that. I'll update the small map, after which I'm hoping for a stamp-shaped surprise

simply moving the current neutral from zavkhan to south nei mongol will serve our purpose. south nei mongol is needed for two 4-region bonuses, so this reduces the chances of a bonus drop for player 1 in 1v1 by about 2 percentage points.

Sure, this sounds reasonable. I'll just make S. Nei Mongol a neutral 2.

[natty dread]

Ok, so here's the update in both sizes.

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

[isaiah40]

Seeing as everyone is happy with the gameplay, I know present you ...

[isaiah40]

Wait for it ....