Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?

[PROFITS]

I don't have any problem with these women going at it as long as I can watch

[dazerazer]

We do not have usergroups allowed based on race. We do not have user groups allowed based on religion. We do have approved usergroups which are region specific and an approved usergroup which is gender specific. CC is a world in and of itself. We create our own rules here. The fate of the REAL world is not at stake here. The statistical minorities and majorities of the human race do not apply here. The male to female ratio on CC is not 1.02/1 as it is in the real world. Recognizing and respecting that is OKAY.

[Serbia]

We do not have user groups allowed based on religion.

Jesus Freaks "We Are Proud Players of Conquer Club And Proud To Follow Christ"
The Godless Heathens "A usergroup for Atheists/Agnostics."

There's two. But of course, beside the point.

[squishyg]

Hey look, a minority wants something! Let's create rules to make it harder for them to get what they want! In the interest of fairness, naturally.

[barterer2002]

I've missed the conversation here and I apologize.

The question Lindax raises is not whether women should be allowed to have their own tournament but rather any group should based on anything other than merit. The general rule of tournaments is that at least have the slots have to be open to the CC community as a whole although there is a caveat that they can put rank limits in (and even that is limited so we can't have a Col only tournament).

CC policy has always specifically denied the abilty for in clan tournaments, private friend tournaments etc for the reason that tournaments are intended to be inclusive and fun for the entire community.

There are some here who have advocated that women should be able to have "their own tournament" and even a few more who say we should create tournaments on any basis (Jewish, Catholic, whatever). I see this as a slippery slope. As any society we draw lines where we as a community wish them to be but the problem with them is when we draw them in the wrong place. When we allow a minority grouping to create a specified exception to a rule we create a precedence for a majority to exclude that same minority in the future. Those that look at this issue and say "why can't girls have a tournament" are clearly missing that point. Its not about that, its about the society we have here on CC and the rules we want to live under.

Those who attack Lindax personally are wrong to do so as he is raising a point that should be raised. Those who say that this is an attack on women or a male/female thing are being foolish as that certainly isn't the point either.

[Serbia]

Hey look, a minority wants something! Let's create rules to make it harder for them to get what they want! In the interest of fairness, naturally.

Hey look, a minority wants something! Let's ignore current rules and guidelines in order to give them special treatment over any other group, minority or not, so they can get what they want! In the interest of fairness, naturally.

Because, being a minority makes it very difficult to join Conquer Club. Oh, wait...
Because, being a minority makes it very difficult to buy premium... Oh, wait...
Because, being a minority makes it very difficult to join games.....
Because, being a minority makes it very difficult to join tourneys....
Because, being a minority makes it very difficult to run tourneys....
Because, being a minority makes it very difficult to join user groups....
Because, being a minority makes it very difficult to run user groups....

Actually, I'm confused... in what way does being a minority affect anyone's Conquer Clubbing experience, negatively or positively? Conquer Club has in no way discriminated against ANY group of people, whether it's male or female; black, white, red or yellow; Atheist, Buddhist, Christian, or Muslim; Communist, Democrat, Republican, or Royalist... all users are equal, equally allowed to join, equally allowed to play, buy membership, run tourneys, join tourneys, run user groups, join user groups, as long as each individual member stays within the rules and guidelines.

[Tripitaka]

Were you guys raised by wolves? What kind of gentlemen acts this way? There is NOTHING wrong with treating women with the respect they deserve! Plus with us being such a small few, what is the harm here? There are exceptions made for international tourneys. Why must you fight tooth and nail to prevent the women from feeling a little bit special on a male dominated and male-centric site? Oh... I guess that would be why. This is a male-centric site and you guys want to keep all aspects of it that way. I get it.

Firstly what has allowing a ladies only tournament or not got to do with respect or lack there of for the women of CC? The rules and guidelines that are currently in place with regards to tournaments are there to make them as open and welcoming as possible to EVERYONE, including women. Yes certain restrictions are allowed based on points or membership status (the latter being for obvious practical reasons) but thankfully these are few and far between. As for allowing international tournaments, my understanding is that these are run within the specific language forums so never impact on the general tournament going population and are there solely to close any barriers that may prevent a non-English speaking player from joining regular tournaments. No such barrier exists for us women, unless you're suggesting that having to play in a tournament dominated by men somehow puts us at a disadvantage, because I know several regular female tournament goers who would strongly disagree with that, myself included!

Secondly, why simply because we are in a minority on this site do you feel we should be granted special privileges or treated differently from any other section of CC? Wouldn't you prefer to be seen as equals?. It's funny how you automatically assume that Lindax' concerns are simply because he is a man and just wants to keep all aspects of this site "male-centric", rather than because he has put a lot of work into the tournament section in the past and wants to ensure that its integrity is upheld. Isn't that like being....er...sexist? Well I'm a woman and I too share his concerns about where this bending of the rules could lead as do a few other women on here it seems. This issue isn't just about this one particular tournament but what it could pave the way for. I personally wouldn't like to see any changes made to the rules with regards to allowing gender-specific tournaments, because I don't think they are fair or frankly needed. If we want to run or participate in all female tournaments no one is stopping us - we can run as many of them as we want to from within the Ball Busterz usergroup. Yes it's a bit more work setting up games etc, but so what? The only difference is we won't get a medal for it, but again so what? If the main reason for having such all-female tournaments is to make the women of CC feel more welcome and to encourage bonding etc then that shouldn't matter. And as far as making female users feel welcomed, wouldn't a link to the BB usergroup on the home page be more effective at achieving that than a tournament in a section of the site that they may never enter anyway?

[dazerazer]

Look, I just wanted to start a tournament to make the women of CC feel welcome as well as to give them an outlet to meet other ladies on CC. To feel noticed and a little special.

Far too often women come to the site and then just leave unceremoniously because they are not comfortable here or feel isolated or intimidated.

Then there are also women who stay but are too intimidated to even allow people to know they are female because of how the guys treat them or act when they realize they are playing with a girl. Obviously there are some who will disagree but we all know how things are most of the time with most of the players.

Although we keep throwing the word "minority" around, there is a huge distinction between male vs. female and other minorities.

If CC would embrace that, I truly feel like there is a HUGE opportunity for exponential growth.

[chapcrap]

Then there are also women who stay but are too intimidated to even allow people to know they are female because of how the guys treat them or act when they realize they are playing with a girl.

This is true. I know someone that made her name specifically masculine so that people who she player with would think she was a man.

That being said, what can I do to get my wife (cardinal.baby) to play more?

[dazerazer]

Then there are also women who stay but are too intimidated to even allow people to know they are female because of how the guys treat them or act when they realize they are playing with a girl.

This is true. I know someone that made her name specifically masculine so that people who she player with would think she was a man.

That being said, what can I do to get my wife (cardinal.baby) to play more?

Make concessions which will allow us to be a more female friendly community.

[Tripitaka]

Look, I just wanted to start a tournament to make the women of CC feel welcome as well as to give them an outlet to meet other ladies on CC.

Wasn't the Ball Busterz usergroup set up for that express reason? And since it's possible that not all the women who join CC are interested in joining tournaments, isn't it a more effective vehicle for them to mingle socially?

Far too often women come to the site and then just leave unceremoniously because they are not comfortable here or feel isolated or intimidated

Then there are also women who stay but are too intimidated to even allow people to know they are female because of how the guys treat them or act when they realize they are playing with a girl. Obviously there are some who will disagree but we all know how things are most of the time with most of the players.

What are you getting this information from? Do you actually know first hand of any cases where this has happened or are you just making sweeping, unfounded statements again? Even if this is the case how are official all female tournaments going to change what goes on in the rest of the site? If some women on here genuinely feel too intimidated to join male dominated tournaments or random public games, as I stated previously, they are free to run or join private tournaments/games made through Ball Busterz.

Although we keep throwing the word "minority" around, there is a huge distinction between male vs. female and other minorities.
If CC would embrace that, I truly feel like there is a HUGE opportunity for exponential growth.

Are you seriously suggesting that having all female tournaments will increase female membership here? When you joined were you aware whether or not such things existed? Did the fact that there weren't any put you off from staying? Obviously not! Nor did it I or any other of the women I know here on CC. I don't deny that there are probably some women on here who are put off from posting in the forums or even revealing their gender because of the way some "boys" on here react to women posters/players but official all female tournaments won't change that. On the flip side I also see a lot of female users who go out of their way to advertise their gender with their avatars and sigs etc because they like the inevitable attention they get precisely because this is a male dominated site.

[dazerazer]

Of course it didnt turn me away or I wouldn't be here. Strong female personalities are okay here. It is evident that some women arent comfortable here or there would be more. Most new players know very little about forums being that they come here initially to play the game. So yes, I am suggesting having more games for females rather than just a forum could potentially bring in more women.

Tripitaka, whats your problem? Seriously... what has you so bent that you feel it necessary to pick apart my statements? I mean no harm here so what's with the animosity? Relax.

[Lindax]

Tripitaka, whats your problem? Seriously... what has you so bent that you feel it necessary to pick apart my statements? I mean no harm here so what's with the animosity? Relax.

Frankly daze, your statements (or what you call statements) are full of holes, biased opinions, assumptions and untruths.

Lx

[chapcrap]

There aren't a lot of women on any online gaming site. I don't think CC does anything worse than anywhere else. I think it's just the style of the site that lends itself to having more men than women.

[DoomYoshi]

There aren't a lot of women on any online gaming site. I don't think CC does anything worse than anywhere else. I think it's just the style of the site that lends itself to having more men than women.

Pogo is pretty much nothing but middle-aged women, as one example. Either you don't know the internet, or you don't know women.

For the record, I have long-felt that CC should respect it's female users more. That's why I created the Wonderful Warrior Women series of tournaments. The first one is in sign-ups now, although I have been planning the series since back when DJENRE was still around.

[/self-promotion]

Now I want to get at what the original question here is: where do we draw the line?

The main problem is not that there are specific minority based tournaments in and of itself. That is fine. I would say there is no reason to draw the line. To address a question why not start a usergroup called Vagina Ripperz? Well, most of the clans might as well be called that anyways. Most of the tournaments ARE male-only. That has already happened.

The problem is twofold.

Part 1: Why should the TOs have to work to help and organize private tournaments?
Part 2: Why should players get medals for private tournaments?

As such, there is no current solution, so I would like to propose changing the current structure of tournament setup.

Step 1: Make a new, self-regulating for private tournaments. Sort of like the off-topic games thread is organized now. Just a single subforum where private groups can have a link in the tournament forum. Unfortunately, these tournaments won't qualify to go on the main-page.

Step 2: Allow a special class of tournament privileges. Basically, the TOs create a large tournament known as PRIVATE. Then, for example dazerazer, can apply for privileges in that tournament and run her own private tournament. She can keep running private tournaments as much as she wants.

Step 3: No medals for private tournaments.

The main issues with this solution are that tournament privileges can be abused easier and it will be theoretically harder to find games with many people using the same tournament to run several tournaments.
Seriously, though, how often are tournament privileges abused?
Also, how many private tournaments will we realistically expect to see at a time?
Also, game labels will help:

Especially, if the game label is automatically edited to include the name of the person who created the game.

Anyways, there's my 0.02 dollars.

[dazerazer]

Tripitaka, whats your problem? Seriously... what has you so bent that you feel it necessary to pick apart my statements? I mean no harm here so what's with the animosity? Relax.

Frankly daze, your statements (or what you call statements) are full of holes, biased opinions, assumptions and untruths.

Lx

Lindax, this isn't a Congressional Debate or some Tea Party Convention.
I may be phatscotty's girlfriend but my debating expertise is nowhere near as majestic.
Why are you so uptight about this?
Damn y'all make my head hurt with this back and forth as to why I'm wrong in wanting to spread a little extra love on CC.
If you are hell bent on stopping this, then so be it.

[Denise]

...what can I do to get my wife (cardinal.baby) to play more?

Introduce her to team games. Play on her team. Win the games. Also, refuse to talk to her in RL. Tell her all communication must be done in the chat box. This will also make clicking on your games a lot more entertaining for me.

Lindax, this isn't a Congressional Debate or some Tea Party Convention.
I may be phatscotty's girlfriend but my debating expertise is nowhere near as majestic.
Why are you so uptight about this?
Damn y'all make my head hurt with this back and forth as to why I'm wrong in wanting to spread a little extra love on CC.
If you are hell bent on stopping this, then so be it.

Dazey, I honestly feel pretty bad this has turned into so much drama for you. I know your intentions are pure. You want to reach out to the female players, and you think that having all female tournaments will do that. For your current tournament, despite the drama, I think you have succeeded. We used to have only 5 or 6 of us post occasionally in the BB group, just to keep it from being deleted for inactivity. Since I added you (and 8 others), you have livened it up tremendously! Then your idea about the tournament had us searching out the other females on the site, so you could fill it. I have added 28 players to our group in the last 3 weeks! That's great, and credit is yours to a large degree. Many of the gals were very excited about your tournament. I'm not sure an in house tournament would have been as successful, because there's added fun to playing it in front of the CC community. So be proud.

I think you realize this, but maybe I should clarify that the debate here is not about your current tournament. It's about changing protocol which would open up possibilities for bigger problems than an occasional all girl tournament. I think we all know there are players that take advantage of every loophole. If all girl tournaments were allowed, all guy tournaments would have to be. I have no doubt some players would use that. That's not cool! I want to conquer the world, males included. That's why I think gender specific tournaments aren't a good idea, unless TD's make an exception. That gives them the ability to prevent anything that they feel is unfair or discriminatory.

[Serbia]

To address a question why not start a usergroup called Vagina Ripperz? Well, most of the clans might as well be called that anyways. Most of the tournaments ARE male-only. That has already happened.

1st off, "Vagina Ripperz" is a direct reference to "Ball Busterz" - I hope you can appreciate the connection there. Secondly, on what, exactly, do you base your comment that "most clans might as well be called that anyways"? I'll speak for my clan - we have 3 active women in our group, and they are no less a part of our clan than any of the men. And I see some very visible clans about CC that CELEBRATE their female members. I am aware of no clan on CC that is outwardly, or even passively, aggressive to women on this site. Care to give examples?

Next, the fact that most tournaments are male-only is NOT by design. All tournaments on CC are open to anyone to join. Any girl can sign up, if she so chooses. In my second NHL-based tourney, for example, I had 4 women playing. One, Tripitaka, had the best regular season record (meaning she beat ALL the men), and another, amazzony, actually won the entire tournament. They did not need any special help to perform well in the tourney, and they did not need special reserved spots to join. The fact that there are more men on the site means that there is a greater chance of having all-men tourneys, but again, THIS IS NOT BY DESIGN. No one is excluding women.

[anonymus]

However, because of several comments from different people, I am open to hearing a discussion on the topic if there is a desire to write a legitimate and fair policy that covers gender-specific tournaments. If you would like to make a case for such a policy, please post and discuss it in a single thread in the Tournament General Info forum.

~Night Strike
Head Tournament Director

Does this mean that if there are "several comments from different people", that we can have a discussion about a legitimate and fair policy that covers race-specific tournaments? Or religion-specific tournaments?

Or how about starting a usergroup for man only, called "Vagina Ripperz"? Is there even the remotest chance that that would be allowed?

Ever heard of the term "positive discrimination"? Is that okay on CC? I would like to make a case for the rules being applied equally amongst all genders, races, religions, etc.

Lx

I missed this earlier and have no time to read the thread through now, but come on Lx, let the girls play a tournament.. Im sure no-one will drag this to its point as you predict..

Tammy asked me to write in the other thread and i forgot about it, but i read some of NS comments and it made me pissed (like so many of NS's comments do) but then i had to calm down when i saw him giving them a chanse and i think that took some backbone and i put my hands together for him for that. nightstrike!

The girls wanted a tournament, he saw most of them where from the same user-group (being girls on this site may lead to that you seek out other girls) and even though tourney-rules are written like they are, he was willing to listen to the COMMUNITY in this matter and that is commendable.

So give it a rest Lx, take a deep breath, calm down and let the girls play it will not harm anyone..

/

[Tripitaka]

Of course it didnt turn me away or I wouldn't be here. Strong female personalities are okay here. It is evident that some women arent comfortable here or there would be more. Most new players know very little about forums being that they come here initially to play the game. So yes, I am suggesting having more games for females rather than just a forum could potentially bring in more women.

Tripitaka, whats your problem? Seriously... what has you so bent that you feel it necessary to pick apart my statements? I mean no harm here so what's with the animosity? Relax.

What animosity? I have nothing against you personally dazey, I'm merely responding to some of the statements you've made. That's how debate works and this is after all a thread debating the issue of gender specific tournaments.

I think the disparity between the number of men and the number of women on this site has very little to do with the general atmosphere here and more to do with the fact that women in general just aren't interested in joining this particular type of "world domination" based gaming site in the first place and no amount of female exclusive tournaments is going to change that.

[Lindax]

However, because of several comments from different people, I am open to hearing a discussion on the topic if there is a desire to write a legitimate and fair policy that covers gender-specific tournaments. If you would like to make a case for such a policy, please post and discuss it in a single thread in the Tournament General Info forum.

~Night Strike
Head Tournament Director

Does this mean that if there are "several comments from different people", that we can have a discussion about a legitimate and fair policy that covers race-specific tournaments? Or religion-specific tournaments?

Or how about starting a usergroup for man only, called "Vagina Ripperz"? Is there even the remotest chance that that would be allowed?

Ever heard of the term "positive discrimination"? Is that okay on CC? I would like to make a case for the rules being applied equally amongst all genders, races, religions, etc.

Lx

I missed this earlier and have no time to read the thread through now, but come on Lx, let the girls play a tournament.. Im sure no-one will drag this to its point as you predict..

Tammy asked me to write in the other thread and i forgot about it, but i read some of NS comments and it made me pissed (like so many of NS's comments do) but then i had to calm down when i saw him giving them a chanse and i think that took some backbone and i put my hands together for him for that. nightstrike!

The girls wanted a tournament, he saw most of them where from the same user-group (being girls on this site may lead to that you seek out other girls) and even though tourney-rules are written like they are, he was willing to listen to the COMMUNITY in this matter and that is commendable.

So give it a rest Lx, take a deep breath, calm down and let the girls play it will not harm anyone..

/

Haha, I guess you missed this too:

That's totally beside the point. Read my post again....

I have no problem with the one-time exemption, btw.

Lx

This thread is NOT about the tournament.

Lx

[barterer2002]

All of you who are thinking this is about Daze's tournament or are saying things like "let the girls play" are missing the entire point. I don't know and can't tell if its intentional idiocy or if its just inherent in some of you. The question is not whether Daze's tournament is OK or not, its a matter of whether its a good idea for CC tournaments to allow exclusionary tournaments based on non-meritous issues.

[DoomYoshi]

To address a question why not start a usergroup called Vagina Ripperz? Well, most of the clans might as well be called that anyways. Most of the tournaments ARE male-only. That has already happened.

1st off, "Vagina Ripperz" is a direct reference to "Ball Busterz" - I hope you can appreciate the connection there. Secondly, on what, exactly, do you base your comment that "most clans might as well be called that anyways"? I'll speak for my clan - we have 3 active women in our group, and they are no less a part of our clan than any of the men. And I see some very visible clans about CC that CELEBRATE their female members. I am aware of no clan on CC that is outwardly, or even passively, aggressive to women on this site. Care to give examples?

Next, the fact that most tournaments are male-only is NOT by design. All tournaments on CC are open to anyone to join. Any girl can sign up, if she so chooses. In my second NHL-based tourney, for example, I had 4 women playing. One, Tripitaka, had the best regular season record (meaning she beat ALL the men), and another, amazzony, actually won the entire tournament. They did not need any special help to perform well in the tourney, and they did not need special reserved spots to join. The fact that there are more men on the site means that there is a greater chance of having all-men tourneys, but again, THIS IS NOT BY DESIGN. No one is excluding women.

I didn't say that there were any cases of aggression towards females in clans. Nor did I say that the bull busterz show any aggression towards males. I know, as a male, that I have ripped the odd vagina or hymen. I can imagine that since most of the clans here are primarily dominated by males, this occurrence is not at all uncommon.

In point 2 you are once again misrepresenting what I said. I didn't even imply that there is any design in the phallicentricity of the tournaments. I meant to say that since it naturally occurs anyway, male-only tournaments (by design) wouldn't make sense.

I find this post from you disturbing, Serbia. I have seen you to be a calm and reasonable person and yet here you use a double straw-man argument against me. What I really want is for someone to analyze the meatier part of my post, my two-part problem and three-part solution. Not one person has looked at it. People are still arguing about a tournament that already got privileges, and which is not even supposed to be discussed in this thread.

[chapcrap]

To address a question why not start a usergroup called Vagina Ripperz? Well, most of the clans might as well be called that anyways. Most of the tournaments ARE male-only. That has already happened.

1st off, "Vagina Ripperz" is a direct reference to "Ball Busterz" - I hope you can appreciate the connection there. Secondly, on what, exactly, do you base your comment that "most clans might as well be called that anyways"? I'll speak for my clan - we have 3 active women in our group, and they are no less a part of our clan than any of the men. And I see some very visible clans about CC that CELEBRATE their female members. I am aware of no clan on CC that is outwardly, or even passively, aggressive to women on this site. Care to give examples?

QFT

We have 2 women in my clan (3 if you count IcePack ) and they are valuable in the clan. So, I don't think that part of your statement was valid in ANY way.

Doom, as far as your problem/solution thing. That is a big policy change that would have to be implemented. I would not say that I have a problem with it, but a lot of things will have to be worked on and discussed. That actually already started happening before your post, btw.

As far as the logistics of your idea, I don't think one large tournament would be the proper solution. If a change were to come, I think that giving privs as they are granted now would be the feasible way to go. And simply removing the privs when the tournament was over with no medals issued. In this way, the 'Usergroup Tournaments' could act a lot like a normal tournament that had been abandoned.

[Bones2484]

We've been trying to get "usergroup tournament" privs in the clan community for years. Only recently was the policy amended to allow game creation abilities, but only if it's managed and watched by the Clan Directors.

It would definitely be great if this was allowed so that clans/usergroups could run unofficial tournaments in a much easier fashion than is available now. I know that we in G1 run many mini tournaments internal to our clan and we'd love to have this ability.... but I'm not holding my breath yet.