Fire and Ice Mafia! (2/12) GAME OVER!! ~ TOWN WINS!! ~

[edocsil]

I dont see how anyone is going against jgordon right now. I just see everywheres case being cut into shreds before his eyes. Jgordon disproved every point, and if need be I will go behind and fill in the logic behind his case. I am CONVINCED that everywhere is using a very weak case to try to get a townie lynched. Doesnt anyone else see it?

I find it weird that he's torn my case into shreds considering that he doesn't seem to understand what my case is. For instance, he keeps insisting that I confirmed that he was a townie in the quote "You are Definitely Not A Mage", which he would know was false if he had bothered to click the link or read any of my posts afterwards. (The link leads to the TVTropes page "Definitely Not a Villian", which is the trope that describes a character that masquerades as X by repeating that he is X and saying that he is X without actually doing anything that X would do.)

Now, as for the doctor claim, I don't really buy it that much. Not that lynching a claimed doctor is something that I take lightly, but he could be claiming it because he knows it's the only thing that would save him from being lynched, or it's an attempt to get the real doctor to come out (although I doubt he thinks that far ahead). I'm not quite sure the doctor would even want to reveal himself on day 1 simply for the sake of disproving an almost doomed fakeclaim. Still, he could be the doctor and he did all those things because he's an idiot. I don't know. I'll keep my vote on him, but I urge anyone who hasn't already voted for him to not vote for him yet until the doctor decides to claim, jgordon says something stupid and/or incriminating, or the deadline comes crashing down on us. We still have two days left.

So your response to his fluff is to..Write a bunch of fluff and insist that the "Real doctor" is on his way? And how was he supposed to claim anything other than that anyways? If he said VT, you would have said "He is okay to lynch due to the fact he is dispensable". You forced the doctor to claim on Day 1 under very weak evidence. Therefore, my vote remains and will remain until you are lynched, or the day is over. I dont know why you arent convinced that he is actually the doctor. He was dropping hints all over the place, and keeping his head somewhat tucked away to the point that only you would call him out and force him to claim with how he flipped out, when really he didnt, and other gibberish.

Because if I was scum and I made a woopsi D1 I would Fake the Doc to survive a few days and wreak havoc until the real doc CCed. If I was real lucky I would get him hung too, or with an early CC my mates would just smush him. Perhaps Everywhere is giving him to much credit, but hey, people have been accused of worse.

[jgordon1111]

Edoc please tell me the devestating whoopsi I made. Was it the dont read to much into what I am saying or what, I must have this information to reflect on.

Or maybe it was that I hadnt put my vote on you(yet) please let me know. The investigative skills you must have are a complete mystery to me, I spent 14 yrs as a cop and I am highly interested on just how you come about your conclusions.

And no this is not an omgus edoc, I am just curious now

[ghostly447]

Edoc please tell me the devestating whoopsi I made. Was it the dont read to much into what I am saying or what, I must have this information to reflect on.

Or maybe it was that I hadnt put my vote on you(yet) please let me know. The investigative skills you must have are a complete mystery to me, I spent 14 yrs as a cop and I am highly interested on just how you come about your conclusions.

And no this is not an omgus edoc, I am just curious now

FOS edoc. Those are some good points.

[everywhere116]

So your response to his fluff is to..

EBWOP. Response to his claim

Did you know I was once lynched because I referred to the town as "they" instead of "we"? I was scum in that game. It was a warranted lynch.

Write a bunch of fluff and insist that the "Real doctor" is on his way?

Two sentences above the one you highlighted I said that the doctor might not come forward. How did you miss that?

And how was he supposed to claim anything other than that anyways? If he said VT, you would have said "He is okay to lynch due to the fact he is dispensable".

I wasn't expecting anyone to claim in this game. It's an idiotic move to claim that you're the doctor, especially this early, and the only other thing you can claim is townie.

You forced the doctor to claim on Day 1 under very weak evidence.

I wouldn't say that it's weak. It's not open and shut, but it's the best we have.

Therefore, my vote remains and will remain until you are lynched, or the day is over. I dont know why you arent convinced that he is actually the doctor. He was dropping hints all over the place,

I never saw any, and you never talked about them until he suggested that he was dropping hints after he claimed. Where are they?

and keeping his head somewhat tucked away to the point that only you would call him out and force him to claim with how he flipped out, when really he didnt, and other gibberish.

Clearly we disagree about what constitutes
"flipping out", but that's subjective and open to judgement anyway.

[edocsil]

Edoc please tell me the devestating whoopsi I made. Was it the dont read to much into what I am saying or what, I must have this information to reflect on.

Or maybe it was that I hadnt put my vote on you(yet) please let me know. The investigative skills you must have are a complete mystery to me, I spent 14 yrs as a cop and I am highly interested on just how you come about your conclusions.

And no this is not an omgus edoc, I am just curious now

Rhetoric and logic are going to be a different skill set. The only "woopsie" was getting called out as the doc. Sometimes mistakes are not even your fault, but a few of of them are grammar and occasionally being unable to follow a argument to its conclusion.

As for grammar its we in place of they and stuff like that, it implies you are or are not of a specific group.

As for arguments, you often attack a minor point or a caveat rather then the heart of the case. It makes you look guilty, as if you are attempting to dodge something that you have no counter for. This is the big one, a lot of older players will pick up on this really quickly, even if it by accident or unfamiliarity with the game. That combined with an OMGUS makes a lot of players think, "Look! He is hiding something!"

Also a drastic change in playstyle is a often a scum tell. You haven't got a concrete style yet, and even if you did we wouldn't recognize it yet. In all the games till this one you had a lot to say, and here you were fairly quiet and lurking a bit. (posting to say you were reading, but making few cases/meaningful comments) I and others also found this to be suspicious.

Anyhow, you get the point.

[jgordon1111]

Again thank you Edoc that was helpful,just trying to figure out a way not to have to claim day one, I think I am going to go with being quiet, I believe I get a better read when I am quiet and waiting,otherwise I am arguing alot to defend myself mostly.

But in all seriousness when everywhere said that I wasnt a mage,I didnt think he was joking at the time and didnt realize it until he asked if he was being punked,and I had already omgus at that point no back down from there.

[shieldgenerator7]

don't worry, you'll get in eventually.

It me awhile too to try to find my own style. Sometimes I tried to copy others' until I found one that suited me and didn't get me lynched D1. (I pulled a lot of NES back in my day)

Don't give up hope, not in this game, and not in life

-SG7 ( )

[MoB Deadly]

Per VS's request, I am looking for a replacement for him.

[ghostly447]

So your response to his fluff is to..

EBWOP. Response to his claim

Did you know I was once lynched because I referred to the town as "they" instead of "we"? I was scum in that game. It was a warranted lynch.

Write a bunch of fluff and insist that the "Real doctor" is on his way?

Two sentences above the one you highlighted I said that the doctor might not come forward. How did you miss that?

And how was he supposed to claim anything other than that anyways? If he said VT, you would have said "He is okay to lynch due to the fact he is dispensable".

I wasn't expecting anyone to claim in this game. It's an idiotic move to claim that you're the doctor, especially this early, and the only other thing you can claim is townie.

You forced the doctor to claim on Day 1 under very weak evidence.

I wouldn't say that it's weak. It's not open and shut, but it's the best we have.

Therefore, my vote remains and will remain until you are lynched, or the day is over. I dont know why you arent convinced that he is actually the doctor. He was dropping hints all over the place,

I never saw any, and you never talked about them until he suggested that he was dropping hints after he claimed. Where are they?

and keeping his head somewhat tucked away to the point that only you would call him out and force him to claim with how he flipped out, when really he didnt, and other gibberish.

Clearly we disagree about what constitutes
"flipping out", but that's subjective and open to judgement anyway.

I am glad this is turning into a 2v2 argument apparently, with edoc and everywhere's logic going against mine and jgordons. LOL.

What is your point in that someone got you for saying "they" instead of "we"? I believe I pointed it out once here involving the "real doctor" coming out, but besides that being one of my points, there is no need to bring previous games in to defend a case here unless the case leader were to bring in other games.

Very well, I did in fact miss where you said that the other doctor may not come forward. But in your sentence, I believe you are still referring to the possibility of another doctor (at least thats what I got from it).

I feel it IS weak. A few things on D1, like remaining quiet, are not even rare for me to take on. D1 is a hit and miss for my activity level, and I do not think his activity level is required to be up high at all times to prove that he isnt scum during joke voting. After joke voting ends, or seems to be coming to a halt, is when I even tend to join in.

The fact that I can pick the hints up without being too terribly active may just be an outside view of things (you were leading the case and may miss it). I am not going to go back and grab them, but the fact he remained calm (much calmed than I have seen him) with your somewhat pestering of his inactivity was enough to show me he was trying to not reveal himself too terribly much (which at the time, could mean he was mafia, or could mean he was the doctor). When you came in with your case, and I saw how unstable it was, that was enough for me to say that he was the doctor and I needed to try to stop a claim.

Fastposted by MoB.

[jgordon1111]

you are a logical person ghost, and I thank you for the defense,but as I said earlier I kinda figured I was going to be forced into claim prior to game start.

And if it came I would claim quick to keep the game going in case I didnt get lynched,and search out at least one scum so town would have a chance.

So with that in mind lets move forward and see if someone slips shall we. Or lynch me which ever seems best. But if it comes to lynch draw it out until the deadline please and at least have some idea of who scum might be.just my thoughts

[edocsil]

When you came in with your case, and I saw how unstable it was, that was enough for me to say that he was the doctor and I needed to try to stop a claim.

This is complete bull. I feel embarrassed that I even need to say this. There is absolutely zero way you could have know he was the doc. No way no how. I don't know how else to say it. Perhaps you got a lucky guess, but to me this just REEKS of a scum buddying with someone he strongly believes to be town. IGMEOY Ghostly.

[ghostly447]

When you came in with your case, and I saw how unstable it was, that was enough for me to say that he was the doctor and I needed to try to stop a claim.

This is complete bull. I feel embarrassed that I even need to say this. There is absolutely zero way you could have know he was the doc. No way no how. I don't know how else to say it. Perhaps you got a lucky guess, but to me this just REEKS of a scum buddying with someone he strongly believes to be town. IGMEOY Ghostly.

So what your saying is you can take my words out of context but I cant do the exact same thing to you? And that if gordon is trying to pair with me (even though I am the one defending him?), that you, in turn, are practically siding with everywhere, who had a terrible case to begin with, and wasnt even worth the bw it got?

So lets see. By your logic, you are able to take things out of context, but I am immediately corrected when I take one sentence while still posting the entire paragraph? And, also by your logic, we are practically paired, me with gordon, and you with everywhere? I have the claimed doc on my side, and you have no case in my personal opinion. IF you believe you have a case, bring it to the floor point by point. Because I have no reason to hesitate in striking those points down as well, along with likely turning 1 or 2 against you if it seems they are just that weak. I do not have a strong case, admittedly, but it is more than nothing.

So, again, by your logic, I in fact feel that YOU are the one who also reeks of scum buddies, and not only that, but you are trying to get a doctor lynched with weak evidence on D1. So good job, apparently I think we have our pairs if that is in fact how it goes down. I will take a death for jgordon if its needed to prove his innocence (since I firmly believe I am on the right side). Which one of you wishes to step up to the plate? How about everywhere, the main attacker of your case, the one who brought it up, but has ended up leaving it in your hands. Are you sure he isnt using you to develop a case against our doctor (assuming jgordon is the doctor) so that if he flips guilt, everywhere can say he backed off? Because the way I see it, everywhere has had every point tackled by me, and I think you are nearing all your points falling as well.

[edocsil]

Thank you, that would be case and point.

Also, Wall Of Text will avail you not. I am perfectly happy to rip your statement apart line by line. If a single thought in a post sounds bad that's because it is. That is how you pick out the forgery of intent.

Two things.

1. You are buddying with JG, not him with you. You can't buddy with an unknown party.
2. Everywhere is a unknown party, you see the next step. In addition, I don't give a flying f*k if you try to hang Everywhere, he doesn't need my help to defend himself.

You put words in my mouth and argue with them as if that was what I said. I take no blame for you misconstruing clearly presented posts. Where in any of my posts since claiming have I even remotely suggested that the lynch of JG is on the table?

Nowhere, but that was what you claimed I said.

Where is Everywhere saying that we should hang our Doc?

Nowhere, he says watch for lies, and never trust a claim completely. Again, you claim that another says something, yet fail to grasp the subtly of the situation.

[everywhere116]

What is your point in that someone got you for saying "they" instead of "we"? I believe I pointed it out once here involving the "real doctor" coming out, but besides that being one of my points, there is no need to bring previous games in to defend a case here unless the case leader were to bring in other games.

For someone who says he can pick up hints, you sure missed the big one from me that called you out for a scumslip.

Very well, I did in fact miss where you said that the other doctor may not come forward. But in your sentence, I believe you are still referring to the possibility of another doctor (at least thats what I got from it).

Yes I was referring to the possibility that a doctor could come forward. But I said it might not happen. You said that I was insisting it would happen, which is twisting my words around to mean something they don't really mean.

I feel it IS weak. A few things on D1, like remaining quiet, are not even rare for me to take on. D1 is a hit and miss for my activity level, and I do not think his activity level is required to be up high at all times to prove that he isnt scum during joke voting. After joke voting ends, or seems to be coming to a halt, is when I even tend to join in.

Good thing I only mentioned his relative inactivity once, and that was when you brought the topic of inactivity up. Read my thesis again; my argument was and still is mainly about his scumtells, not his inactivity. If it was only about inactivity, I would have dropped it when he became active again, as I did before. The inaccurate description of my entire case against gordon is called "building a strawman", which I believe you have done with this post.

The fact that I can pick the hints up without being too terribly active may just be an outside view of things (you were leading the case and may miss it). I am not going to go back and grab them, but the fact he remained calm (much calmed than I have seen him) with your somewhat pestering of his inactivity was enough to show me he was trying to not reveal himself too terribly much (which at the time, could mean he was mafia, or could mean he was the doctor). When you came in with your case, and I saw how unstable it was, that was enough for me to say that he was the doctor and I needed to try to stop a claim.

My case wasn't unstable, I never pestered him for inactivity, and I don't believe you ever thought he was a doctor until he claimed and I don't believe you ever thought he dropped hints until he said that he did. And he didn't try to fly under the radar after I called him out, he came up and tried to confront me. Did you miss the part where he voted for me? And accused me of being a mage? And said that my building a case against him was a slip in and of itself?

I'm cracking up at the part where you say you've tackled every point made by me. What about the other half of the post that you didn't answer that started this conversation. Here it is:

I dont see how anyone is going against jgordon right now. I just see everywheres case being cut into shreds before his eyes. Jgordon disproved every point, and if need be I will go behind and fill in the logic behind his case. I am CONVINCED that everywhere is using a very weak case to try to get a townie lynched. Doesnt anyone else see it?

I find it weird that he's torn my case into shreds considering that he doesn't seem to understand what my case is. For instance, he keeps insisting that I confirmed that he was a townie in the quote "You are Definitely Not A Mage", which he would know was false if he had bothered to click the link or read any of my posts afterwards. (The link leads to the TVTropes page "Definitely Not a Villian", which is the trope that describes a character that masquerades as X by repeating that he is X and saying that he is X without actually doing anything that X would do.)

You never answered this portion, you started with the second paragraph. In the first paragraph, you say that jgordon is shredding my arguments. And yet, it was clear that he didn't even understand my case against him at the time, and the fact that he kept saying that I cleared him proved it. He could not have possibly countered my argument. But you said that he did, and when I challenged you on it you never responded.

You know, I might have been willing to accept the fact that gordon was being an idiot (and watching him try to claim that he knew who someone targeted during the night in my game due to his tracking abilities when he had already commented on the fact that both his target and his target's target were bus driven during the same night doesn't give me the impression that he's very attentive or thinks things through), but the fact that you are defending him so adamantly, and with such piss-poor logic, makes me wonder why you are doing it at all.

[jgordon1111]

You know, I might have been willing to accept the fact that gordon was being an idiot (and watching him try to claim that he knew who someone targeted during the night in my game due to his tracking abilities when he had already commented on the fact that both his target and his target's target were bus driven during the same night doesn't give me the impression that he's very attentive or thinks things through), but the fact that you are defending him so adamantly, and with such piss-poor logic, makes me wonder why you are doing it at all.

Edoc you say town should never lie unless it is extreme circumstances correct.

I call everywhere out on the above lie

1st there is only one town power role. The doctor,so no other town would have a reason to lie they are all vanilla

2nd the only way everywhere would then lie is if he was going to make that claim, he cant and he knows it.

everywhere please by all means show us where I made the above claim about knowing who someone targeted during the night in your game.

thats twice you tried to hang me on outside info

1st that I was being irrational like in M mafia, I can tell you again I am very very calm in this game

2nd you blatantly lie about me saying something in this game that hasnt happened. Did you think I wouldnt read this info?

I never skim......... period

[edocsil]

JG he is talking about another game fairly obviously. I am uncertain as to which one.

[everywhere116]

You know, I might have been willing to accept the fact that gordon was being an idiot (and watching him try to claim that he knew who someone targeted during the night in my game due to his tracking abilities when he had already commented on the fact that both his target and his target's target were bus driven during the same night doesn't give me the impression that he's very attentive or thinks things through), but the fact that you are defending him so adamantly, and with such piss-poor logic, makes me wonder why you are doing it at all.

Edoc you say town should never lie unless it is extreme circumstances correct.

I call everywhere out on the above lie

1st there is only one town power role. The doctor,so no other town would have a reason to lie they are all vanilla

2nd the only way everywhere would then lie is if he was going to make that claim, he cant and he knows it.

I don't understand what you mean by this part. You say no other town would have a reason to lie. That's right; I don't think you are town. Then you say that I would only lie if I were going to make a claim. What claim are you referring to? Doctor? It's quite unclear and non-sensical.

thats twice you tried to hang me on outside info

1st that I was being irrational like in M mafia, I can tell you again I am very very calm in this game

I never mentioned M in my case, you did.

2nd you blatantly lie about me saying something in this game that hasnt happened. Did you think I wouldnt read this info?

I honestly have no idea what this refers to. What did I claim that you did in this thread that you haven't done?

everywhere please by all means show us where I made the above claim about knowing who someone targeted during the night in your game.

Disregarding the fact that this is you continuing your problem of attacking the periphery of the argument, and the fact that you are questioning the part of my post where cast doubt on my own case, here they are:

Italian, page 23
Did not skim a single page codie, read all of them closely. You must have missed my one question for you though, an answer please who did you target N2 and why. I believe the answer to that probably is going to help everyone here. Because of you 2 mafia are dead directly or indirectly. Edoc who was leaning toward pressuring you and The General who was switched with you. BY JAK.

Italian, page 31
Wow ok so you are going to back off of saying you targeted the general N2 Codierose?

N1 WW targeted Mob.

N2 codierose targeted the general.

I am a Mafia Stalker, each night I target 1 person and see who they target.

This is actually the smoking gun for me. You knew damn well that the event I referred to happened, you spent over 10 pages arguing over it with codie and jak. I spent that time shaking my computer in frustration because of how idiotic you guys were acting. I even made a couple memes based on it. Here they are. (I have more based on that game if anyone wants to see them.) There is no way in hell that you forgot about that argument, and everyone who paid attention to that game knows what happened. Saying that I lied about it is only cementing the fact that you are a mage in my mind.

I hereby reverse my previous statement I made back when I was discussing jgordon's doctor claim. I now urge everyone to vote him out because of the case I have made against him, his reactions, and most recently the nonsensical arguments and outright lies he made with this last post.

[jgordon1111]

you said I had claimed it in this game,not true

[edocsil]

thanks for the backing ghost I believe you are the only one who caught the hints out of all of the sleuths here. I am the town doctor,each night I protect one person. well played everywhere

[shieldgenerator7]

everywhere, ha funny memes.... why are the backgrounds just random pics that have nothing to do with it at all?

and I'm completely lost in all this back-and-forth banter between everywhere edoc and ghost jgordon.

-SG7 ( )

[Leehar]

Lot of discussion while I was abed again, but I still think it's too risky to kick the claimed doctor out just yet, I'm going for the lesser of the 2 evils, so Unvote Vote Ghostly

But I'm also going to FoS you sg7, because you've put in a few posts in the last couple of pages to show you were following the discussion between the quartet, but seemingly specifically avoided getting into anything substantive!

[ghostly447]

you said I had claimed it in this game,not true

Actually you did when you mentioned that I caught the hints you were dropping...I believe edoc or everywhere already posted that.

The only things I have left to say are:

1. I will respond to your responses when I get home (not too long at school left).
And
2. Since we are bringing in other games, look at Hectic Eclectic. I am there trying to get a claimed doctor lynched. Because I believe it to be a fake claim. I do not believe this is a fake claim, and therefore believe you are trying to get him lynched so that even if we find out he actually was doctor, you can still get 1 more during the night.

Now, anyways. I am off. Like I said, I will respond when I get time (Going to go back and catch the dropped hints to prove you wrong while you try to tell me what I caught and didnt catch).

[Leehar]

And ebwop, nice meme's Everywhere, I'm liking them now that I can actually understand them in hindsight
The last one on the bus-driver was Jak111 tho?

Btw, where's the other 6 players in the game, more submariners?

Edit to the fastposting: You may be playing this differently Ghostly because you are actually scum this time?

[edocsil]

(Going to go back and catch the dropped hints to prove you wrong while you try to tell me what I caught and didnt catch).

Looking forward to this. If you can't convince me you are telling the truth you are going to earn yourself my vote.

[jgordon1111]

ok I am personally tired of the fighting, and the over extensive qoutes that pretty much guarantee no one will read them.

It breaks down to this everywhere you think I am scum,ok good for you, I happen to believe you are the scum that omgus me for calling you out. neither here nor there.

boom now someone came to my defense who recognized the hints I was trying to drop, now you are deciding to vote him LOL

lets be done with it keep the quotes out of it unless needed put your case against me or ghost forward and let town decide rather than continue this.

Thank you leehar and sg7 for showing up, so many players so few willing to say anything. Quite submarining please and come forward and put your vote in if nothing else.

At this point you dont have to give a reason just vote