Let's have an epic discussion about religion!

[thegreekdog]

If you don't mind me asking, why is that ok? That's one of the things I don't get about some religious people. Seems a bit like cognitive dissonance to me.

It's hard for me to explain. I like to think I'm a pretty intelligent guy; I have received a lot of education (a very small portion of which was religious). So I think I have critical thinking skills (I'm also an attorney, where critical thinking is important). Being a person of faith (in my particular religion, but it could go for others as well I suppose) is not something that involves thinking or intelligence (boy, that's a softball). I've definitely thought critically about my beliefs (both in God and in Catholicism).

Anway, I think I got sidetracked. It's hard for me to explain. My religion and faith are separate from anything else in my life. I don't need to think critically about religion or faith; there's no emptiness in my life if I don't think about those things critically; and when I have thought about those things, it doesn't change my faith in any event.

So, maybe I should have said - there's no point in debating someone about religion and that I'm not going to be convinced. I've heard all the arguments before and they haven't convinced me that i should make any change in my life.

I probably didn't answer your question.

I guess I just completely failed to understand why any reasonable person could be religious at that point in time, therefore the trying to prove they're idiots. I also had this deep conviction that if only everyone else would see the light it would be so much easier to progress as a species and so on. It's funny in retrospect, guess it was pretty similar to a religious belief.

On the other hand, a lot of religious people aren't content to say "I have faith for personal reasons" and leave it at that, but try to prove that there's some kind of evidence that skews the probability towards the existence of god, and that's just silly.

I just don't understand why either side would get belligerently argumentative. There is no reason to. From an atheist's perspective, what's the harm of a religious person having their own beliefs so long as they are not interfering with the atheist's life. And vice versa.

That's why I have never really participated in the "is there a god threads." I can't prove that God exists and an atheist can't convince me to believe that God doesn't exist. Is that weird? Yeah. But who cares?

[thegreekdog]

Oh... two more things for Gilipig whenever he gets back. I think these two plus I'm waiting for his "religion is bad because it causes conflict, etc." argument so that I can counter that one.

(1) Catholic primary and secondary schools (i.e. everything up to college) tend to be superior to their public (i.e. government run) counterparts.

(2) All of the U.S. presidents have been some form of Christian. We've had one Catholic president who was wildly popular. With some largely irrelevant exceptions, the president's religion has almost never affected his decision making.

[BigBallinStalin]

I guess I just completely failed to understand why any reasonable person could be religious at that point in time, therefore the trying to prove they're idiots. I also had this deep conviction that if only everyone else would see the light it would be so much easier to progress as a species and so on. It's funny in retrospect, guess it was pretty similar to a religious belief.

On the other hand, a lot of religious people aren't content to say "I have faith for personal reasons" and leave it at that, but try to prove that there's some kind of evidence that skews the probability towards the existence of god, and that's just silly.

I just don't understand why either side would get belligerently argumentative. There is no reason to. From an atheist's perspective, what's the harm of a religious person having their own beliefs so long as they are not interfering with the atheist's life. And vice versa.

That's why I have never really participated in the "is there a god threads." I can't prove that God exists and an atheist can't convince me to believe that God doesn't exist. Is that weird? Yeah. But who cares?

I kind of feel bad for kids who grow up and are blindly shoved into these religious organizations.

This is all speculation, but I think most kids could develop "better" without sticking to a belief in God. Of course, I can't really show this, but hey.

[thegreekdog]

I guess I just completely failed to understand why any reasonable person could be religious at that point in time, therefore the trying to prove they're idiots. I also had this deep conviction that if only everyone else would see the light it would be so much easier to progress as a species and so on. It's funny in retrospect, guess it was pretty similar to a religious belief.

On the other hand, a lot of religious people aren't content to say "I have faith for personal reasons" and leave it at that, but try to prove that there's some kind of evidence that skews the probability towards the existence of god, and that's just silly.

I just don't understand why either side would get belligerently argumentative. There is no reason to. From an atheist's perspective, what's the harm of a religious person having their own beliefs so long as they are not interfering with the atheist's life. And vice versa.

That's why I have never really participated in the "is there a god threads." I can't prove that God exists and an atheist can't convince me to believe that God doesn't exist. Is that weird? Yeah. But who cares?

I kind of feel bad for kids who grow up and are blindly shoved into these religious organizations.

This is all speculation, but I think most kids could develop "better" without sticking to a belief in God. Of course, I can't really show this, but hey.

What's your definition of "better?" Not to put words in your mouth, but some atheists might think that "better" in this context merely means not believing in God.

Like I've said before, every one of our presidents have been Christian and believed in God... so if president is your barometer on "better," I don't think it gets much "better." Believing in God does not prohibit someone from being intelligent or a scientist or successful by any stretch, so I guess to end at the beginning - what do you mean by better?

[pmchugh]

If it's not too personal, how much of it all do you believe? I mean, do you believe in evolution? Is the structure of the catholic church 'correct'? Is the pope the most holy person on the earth, or is everyone (catholics) as holy and the pope is the figurehead? Heaven and hell? If you're a good person, will you go to heaven if you're not a catholic?

I believe in pretty much everything.

I don't believe in evolution; I think there is a sufficient amount of evidence to prove evolution so belief is not really the right word.

I think the structure of the Catholic church is fine although I think women priests should be permitted. I think the pope's just a guy in a hat; I have a lot of respect for the pope (that being said). The heaven and hell stuff is a bit more complex to me. I think it's a matter of living a life like a Catholic should more than anything else (I mean treating people well, etc.)

You are the kind of Catholics I don't mind, you are like a lot of people in my family i.e. not really Catholic, you use the church to justify your beliefs when you agree and yet you can still criticize the church and ask for change when it's wrong. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

On the question of faith schools I don't see the problem as long as it doesn't stop people from learning science and morality. I went to a catholic primary school and I turned out just fine.

Debate does not show intolerance. Debate is one of the main ways we progress as individuals and as a species.

he said argument, which implies angry exchange and not rational debate.

if anyone tries to debate religion with me i tell them to go and sell their manure somewhere else. they are boring.

I really don't get this, why do people insist on coming into these threads to moan about people wanting to have a debate. No one forced you to come here, no one forced you to talk about religion. If someone approaches you in the street and starts preaching then fair doos but that ain't the case here.

[pmchugh]

I guess I just completely failed to understand why any reasonable person could be religious at that point in time, therefore the trying to prove they're idiots. I also had this deep conviction that if only everyone else would see the light it would be so much easier to progress as a species and so on. It's funny in retrospect, guess it was pretty similar to a religious belief.

On the other hand, a lot of religious people aren't content to say "I have faith for personal reasons" and leave it at that, but try to prove that there's some kind of evidence that skews the probability towards the existence of god, and that's just silly.

I just don't understand why either side would get belligerently argumentative. There is no reason to. From an atheist's perspective, what's the harm of a religious person having their own beliefs so long as they are not interfering with the atheist's life. And vice versa.

That's why I have never really participated in the "is there a god threads." I can't prove that God exists and an atheist can't convince me to believe that God doesn't exist. Is that weird? Yeah. But who cares?

I kind of feel bad for kids who grow up and are blindly shoved into these religious organizations.

This is all speculation, but I think most kids could develop "better" without sticking to a belief in God. Of course, I can't really show this, but hey.

What's your definition of "better?" Not to put words in your mouth, but some atheists might think that "better" in this context merely means not believing in God.

Like I've said before, every one of our presidents have been Christian and believed in God... so if president is your barometer on "better," I don't think it gets much "better." Believing in God does not prohibit someone from being intelligent or a scientist or successful by any stretch, so I guess to end at the beginning - what do you mean by better?

I heard Obama was an atheist.. just saying.

[thegreekdog]

You are the kind of Catholics I don't mind, you are like a lot of people in my family i.e. not really Catholic, you use the church to justify your beliefs when you agree and yet you can still criticize the church and ask for change when it's wrong. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Hmm... I would not classify myself as "not really Catholic" unless your definition of that is that criticizing the church and asking for change makes me "not really Catholic."

I heard Obama was an atheist.. just saying.

Hmm... he goes to a Christian church and has his entire life. I'm not sure who is saying he's an atheist (other than conservatives with agendas).

[BigBallinStalin]

I guess I just completely failed to understand why any reasonable person could be religious at that point in time, therefore the trying to prove they're idiots. I also had this deep conviction that if only everyone else would see the light it would be so much easier to progress as a species and so on. It's funny in retrospect, guess it was pretty similar to a religious belief.

On the other hand, a lot of religious people aren't content to say "I have faith for personal reasons" and leave it at that, but try to prove that there's some kind of evidence that skews the probability towards the existence of god, and that's just silly.

I just don't understand why either side would get belligerently argumentative. There is no reason to. From an atheist's perspective, what's the harm of a religious person having their own beliefs so long as they are not interfering with the atheist's life. And vice versa.

That's why I have never really participated in the "is there a god threads." I can't prove that God exists and an atheist can't convince me to believe that God doesn't exist. Is that weird? Yeah. But who cares?

I kind of feel bad for kids who grow up and are blindly shoved into these religious organizations.

This is all speculation, but I think most kids could develop "better" without sticking to a belief in God. Of course, I can't really show this, but hey.

What's your definition of "better?" Not to put words in your mouth, but some atheists might think that "better" in this context merely means not believing in God.

Like I've said before, every one of our presidents have been Christian and believed in God... so if president is your barometer on "better," I don't think it gets much "better." Believing in God does not prohibit someone from being intelligent or a scientist or successful by any stretch, so I guess to end at the beginning - what do you mean by better?

By "better," I partly mean something which is encompassed in the following:

Perhaps kids could begin to more efficiently correct their problems instead of shifting the cause into the Hands of God? Or by simply praying to God? Praying and a "Thy Will Be Done" mentality shifts the responsibility away from the person and into God. That kind of mentality seems to slow growth toward self-responsibility (or entirely away from it).

At least the Zen Buddhists, and perhaps the Taoists, had it right when they suggested working on one's self in order to help others (i.e. self-cultivation).

[thegreekdog]

By "better," I partly mean something which is encompassed in the following:

Perhaps kids could begin to more efficiently correct their problems instead of shifting the cause into the Hands of God? Or by simply praying to God? Praying and a "Thy Will Be Done" mentality shifts the responsibility away from the person and into God. That kind of mentality seems to slow growth toward self-responsibility (or entirely away from it).

At least the Zen Buddhists, and perhaps the Taoists, had it right when they suggested working on one's self in order to help others (i.e. self-cultivation).

I think your impression of the purpose behind praying is flawed. I know a whole lot of religious people, including children, and I don't know anyone who leaves anything they can do themselves to prayer. To take your impression to its absurd conclusion, if prayer was the only method employed by religious people to better themselves, we'd all be unsuccesful.

"God, please let me do well on this test. Yes, I know I didn't study or go to class or read any of the assignments, but your will be done."

I'm not sure there's anyone who does that and believes it will work.

[BigBallinStalin]

Sure, in that narrow situation it doesn't apply, but in many others it does. Usually, it's "God, please let me do well on this test." I say, "scrap all that, be a big boy, and rely on yourself and others in order to accomplish your goals--not on some deity. You're not 'on your own'; you have your fellow human beings here with you."

Then there's the mind-numbing "do what the Book says because it says so" mentality. This appeal to authority comes with the implied "don't question authority" message.

Let's not forget about that self-centered Holy Incentive: Heaven. "Do good because you'll be rewarded with a life of bliss after you die." At least with atheists who strive to lead a good life, they don't have that self-centered Heaven Incentive. They actually do good because they want to--with no hope of reward in the afterlife.

Then there's the "I'm not worthy" attitude, and the faith that there's always an answer for some cause-and-effect ("god did it"). Having the humility to say, "I don't know why this happened" goes leaps and bounds beyond the "god did it" mentality. Besides, the "god did it" explanation can stop the search for a more useful answer.


This patriarchal institution and its obsolete, straight-male-dominant book tends breeds a Holier Than Thou superiority complex which simply needs to be scrapped. Adults bind their kids to all this, but to me, that religion causes more problems than it solves. It's holding back the kid's development toward a more open-minded, or cosmopolitan, attitude.

[the carpet man]

you think an athiest is good for no reason other than the kindness of their heart? many athiests will be good because they feel there is reward in it for them (being involved in charity will make people think well of them, etc.). their motive is not their god, but they still have some selfish reason. i think it was richard dawkin who said that it is impossible to do a truly selfless act.

i am also not sure that religion is what stops people from being open-minded. no need to name any name but look at the 'is there a god thread' - full of people who are athiest or religious, all certain they are correct and the others are wrong. all incredibly angry that the others think different to them. it may be true that many religious people are closed in mind (reject gay people or similar), but this is just as true of athiests. i know very well some religious people who are very much more open minded than many athiest people i know. i know of racist, sexist, homophobic athiest people.

i think ignorance and narrow-mindedness is a human problem, the tribe/herd instinct, not something that can be blamed on religion.

[pmchugh]

You are the kind of Catholics I don't mind, you are like a lot of people in my family i.e. not really Catholic, you use the church to justify your beliefs when you agree and yet you can still criticize the church and ask for change when it's wrong. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Hmm... I would not classify myself as "not really Catholic" unless your definition of that is that criticizing the church and asking for change makes me "not really Catholic."

I think you went further than that, surely a catholic must believe that the pope is particularly holy. In fact that the holiness of the church and the pope are one of the main defining features of Catholicism compared to other christian beliefs.

I heard Obama was an atheist.. just saying.

Hmm... he goes to a Christian church and has his entire life. I'm not sure who is saying he's an atheist (other than conservatives with agendas).

Haha you are probably right there, amazing that atheist works as an insult to some people. The leader of both the lib dems and labour in Britain are self professed atheists and no one cares.

[AlgyTaylor]

I believe in pretty much everything.

I don't believe in evolution; I think there is a sufficient amount of evidence to prove evolution so belief is not really the right word.

I think the structure of the Catholic church is fine although I think women priests should be permitted. I think the pope's just a guy in a hat; I have a lot of respect for the pope (that being said). The heaven and hell stuff is a bit more complex to me. I think it's a matter of living a life like a Catholic should more than anything else (I mean treating people well, etc.)

Excellent answer that's what I'd hoped/expected ya to say.

Religion's spoilt by a small minority who use it for their own ends, I think. As I'd said before, you shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush - most religious folk are very nice people

[pmchugh]

I believe in pretty much everything.

I don't believe in evolution; I think there is a sufficient amount of evidence to prove evolution so belief is not really the right word.

I think the structure of the Catholic church is fine although I think women priests should be permitted. I think the pope's just a guy in a hat; I have a lot of respect for the pope (that being said). The heaven and hell stuff is a bit more complex to me. I think it's a matter of living a life like a Catholic should more than anything else (I mean treating people well, etc.)

Excellent answer that's what I'd hoped/expected ya to say.

Religion's spoilt by a small minority who use it for their own ends, I think. As I'd said before, you shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush - most religious folk are very nice people

I will agree to that, in the vast majority of cases religion is harmless especially in the western world.

[Aradhus]

I believe in pretty much everything.

I don't believe in evolution; I think there is a sufficient amount of evidence to prove evolution so belief is not really the right word.

I think the structure of the Catholic church is fine although I think women priests should be permitted. I think the pope's just a guy in a hat; I have a lot of respect for the pope (that being said). The heaven and hell stuff is a bit more complex to me. I think it's a matter of living a life like a Catholic should more than anything else (I mean treating people well, etc.)

Excellent answer that's what I'd hoped/expected ya to say.

Religion's spoilt by a small minority who use it for their own ends, I think. As I'd said before, you shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush - most religious folk are very nice people

Are you a wizard? I'd love to know how people are able to know shit like "most religious people are very nice people" that they can declare it with such confidence.

[pmchugh]

I believe in pretty much everything.

I don't believe in evolution; I think there is a sufficient amount of evidence to prove evolution so belief is not really the right word.

I think the structure of the Catholic church is fine although I think women priests should be permitted. I think the pope's just a guy in a hat; I have a lot of respect for the pope (that being said). The heaven and hell stuff is a bit more complex to me. I think it's a matter of living a life like a Catholic should more than anything else (I mean treating people well, etc.)

Excellent answer that's what I'd hoped/expected ya to say.

Religion's spoilt by a small minority who use it for their own ends, I think. As I'd said before, you shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush - most religious folk are very nice people

Are you a wizard? I'd love to know how people are able to know shit like "most religious people are very nice people" that they can declare it with such confidence.

I am pretty sure he meant most religious people he encounters are very nice people.

[thegreekdog]

Sure, in that narrow situation it doesn't apply, but in many others it does. Usually, it's "God, please let me do well on this test." I say, "scrap all that, be a big boy, and rely on yourself and others in order to accomplish your goals--not on some deity. You're not 'on your own'; you have your fellow human beings here with you."

Then there's the mind-numbing "do what the Book says because it says so" mentality. This appeal to authority comes with the implied "don't question authority" message.

Let's not forget about that self-centered Holy Incentive: Heaven. "Do good because you'll be rewarded with a life of bliss after you die." At least with atheists who strive to lead a good life, they don't have that self-centered Heaven Incentive. They actually do good because they want to--with no hope of reward in the afterlife.

Then there's the "I'm not worthy" attitude, and the faith that there's always an answer for some cause-and-effect ("god did it"). Having the humility to say, "I don't know why this happened" goes leaps and bounds beyond the "god did it" mentality. Besides, the "god did it" explanation can stop the search for a more useful answer.


This patriarchal institution and its obsolete, straight-male-dominant book tends breeds a Holier Than Thou superiority complex which simply needs to be scrapped. Adults bind their kids to all this, but to me, that religion causes more problems than it solves. It's holding back the kid's development toward a more open-minded, or cosmopolitan, attitude.

Again, I don't think there are any religious people who don't rely on themselves rather than a deity to accomplish their goals. I'm wracking my brain to think of examples; maybe I'll ask God (just kidding, just kidding). I definitely don't know any such individuals. Is there an element of "God will help me" going on? Yeah, probably; but the reliance about God's help is not what I would "crippling" by any stretch of the imagination. As I said before, you wouldn't find a whole lot of successful religious people if that weren't the case. Also - think about Tim Tebow. Do you think he works hard, practices, tries his best or do you think he relies upon God?

The "do what the book says" mentality is definitely problematic (or the "do what the Church says" in the case of Catholics). I don't have a good response to that particular issue.

I do not think that Catholics do good works to get into heaven. There are not specific guidelines stating "Do X, get into heaven."

The "God did it" mentality is the same as the "God will help me" mentality - I think it's virtually nonexistant (or a lot less of a problem than you seem to think it is... and it's certainly not crippling).

I think the close-minded / open-minded dichotomy is a parental thing, not a religious thing (at least with respect to Catholicism - which is the only religion I'm remotely qualified to discuss). The nature of Catholicism in the United States is not a closed culture. Catholics don't hang out in enclaves, isolated from the rest of society.

Overall, your problems with religion (as applied to Catholicism) seemed to be based on a lack of understanding of two things: (1) the basic tenets of the religion and (2) the practical implications. If I didn't know you better, I would say you're regurgitating some simplistic view that an atheist has on organized religion. I think the biggest piece of evidence against any of the things you've said is that religious people succeed in life in all fields of endeavour.

[thegreekdog]

I think you went further than that, surely a catholic must believe that the pope is particularly holy. In fact that the holiness of the church and the pope are one of the main defining features of Catholicism compared to other christian beliefs.

I do think the pope is particularly holy, but he is still just a guy. He's not a deity.

[Aradhus]

I believe in pretty much everything.

I don't believe in evolution; I think there is a sufficient amount of evidence to prove evolution so belief is not really the right word.

I think the structure of the Catholic church is fine although I think women priests should be permitted. I think the pope's just a guy in a hat; I have a lot of respect for the pope (that being said). The heaven and hell stuff is a bit more complex to me. I think it's a matter of living a life like a Catholic should more than anything else (I mean treating people well, etc.)

Excellent answer that's what I'd hoped/expected ya to say.

Religion's spoilt by a small minority who use it for their own ends, I think. As I'd said before, you shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush - most religious folk are very nice people

Are you a wizard? I'd love to know how people are able to know shit like "most religious people are very nice people" that they can declare it with such confidence.

I am pretty sure he meant most religious people he encounters are very nice people.

People thought Ted Bundy was a nice guy too, that doesn't mean it's true.

[tkr4lf]

There are not specific guidelines stating "Do X, get into heaven."

But there is a specific guideline for getting into heaven. And it has nothing to do with the life you live. It has everything to do with accepting Jesus as your savior and asking for his forgiveness. That's exactly what the bible says, nobody gets into heaven except through Christ.

And that's one of the biggest problems with Christianity (any form of it, not just Catholicism), in my view. The fact that you are free to live your life as you see fit, as long as you accept Jesus into your life and ask for his forgiveness. Of course you must truly mean it, but basically you can be a murderer and if you truly ask for Jesus' forgiveness on your deathbed, then according to the bible, you will go to heaven. Yet somebody who lives their whole life as a good and decent person but doesn't accept Jesus as his savior will go to hell.

At least in the denomination I "grew up" in, that was the predominant belief. I can't say for sure that this applies to all denominations/sects equally, but assuming that they all base their doctrine on the words of the bible, then even Hitler could have gone to heaven had he truly repented and accepted Jesus as his savior on his deathbed. That doesn't seem kind of fucked up to you guys?

[BigBallinStalin]

Sounds legit!

[pmchugh]

I think you went further than that, surely a catholic must believe that the pope is particularly holy. In fact that the holiness of the church and the pope are one of the main defining features of Catholicism compared to other christian beliefs.

I do think the pope is particularly holy, but he is still just a guy. He's not a deity.

May I ask what makes the pope particularly Holy? Is it because he dedicates a lot of time to the church and his good deeds etc or is it implicit in him being made Pope?

[AAFitz]

What role (if any) should religion have in a modern society?

In an individual or family basis, people should have the freedom to practice whatever religion they choose within the bounds of the law.

Religion should have no role in government.

Yup

If you believe in a deity, why do you do so?
If you don't believe in a deity, why don't you?

The answer to both question is faith.

Wrong. Answer to why you believe is faith. Answer to why you don't is lack of faith.

One need not believe a God does not exist, to not believe one does. You're answering a different question.

What is your view on those who think differently than you?

Live and let live.

Though Christians are really taught to live and help live.

[thegreekdog]

There are not specific guidelines stating "Do X, get into heaven."

But there is a specific guideline for getting into heaven. And it has nothing to do with the life you live. It has everything to do with accepting Jesus as your savior and asking for his forgiveness. That's exactly what the bible says, nobody gets into heaven except through Christ.

And that's one of the biggest problems with Christianity (any form of it, not just Catholicism), in my view. The fact that you are free to live your life as you see fit, as long as you accept Jesus into your life and ask for his forgiveness. Of course you must truly mean it, but basically you can be a murderer and if you truly ask for Jesus' forgiveness on your deathbed, then according to the bible, you will go to heaven. Yet somebody who lives their whole life as a good and decent person but doesn't accept Jesus as his savior will go to hell.

At least in the denomination I "grew up" in, that was the predominant belief. I can't say for sure that this applies to all denominations/sects equally, but assuming that they all base their doctrine on the words of the bible, then even Hitler could have gone to heaven had he truly repented and accepted Jesus as his savior on his deathbed. That doesn't seem kind of fucked up to you guys?

I think at a basic level it's "accept Jesus" and "confess sins" for Catholics, but there are other elements involved. The Bible doesn't say do those two things and you get into heaven. For example, the Bible talks about rich men, camels, and needle eyes - that has nothing to do with accepting Jesus or confessing sins.

[thegreekdog]

I think you went further than that, surely a catholic must believe that the pope is particularly holy. In fact that the holiness of the church and the pope are one of the main defining features of Catholicism compared to other christian beliefs.

I do think the pope is particularly holy, but he is still just a guy. He's not a deity.

May I ask what makes the pope particularly Holy? Is it because he dedicates a lot of time to the church and his good deeds etc or is it implicit in him being made Pope?

The former, although many may say both.