Battle of the Bulge - CLOSED

[new guy1]

So your reason is because yesterday I made lists? Gonna add something I can come back to, or would you rather I just claim right now so that you guys can get off of me? Cause its really ticking me off that you have no evidence to allow me to rebuttle and yet I have 3/4 votes on me. I guess it doesnt matter, if I get to L-2 Ill claim and then we have a wagon to go off of.

[Djfireside]

Of the two between NG and Chap I would tend to lean towards chap but unfortunately I cant find either point on them as well. I have been trying to read through and unfortunately most of D2 got wrapped into chaos and just left everyone kinda reeling. As noted I have been a bit inactive of late as well, as noted by Jak, and whenever I acknowledge my own inactivity I will claim if need be so I dont stick out as question mark submarine.

I believe either way we are going to have to wagon NG or Chap for something because we are still at a impass as we were 6 days ago. Ill choose one or try to find another cause I hate blind BW's but in the first days I guess its a necessary evil.

[DoomYoshi]

In the last round of battle between saf and jak, there were flaws in both arguments. However, I agree that it is time to move on from this.

unvote Vote chap.

I should note that people are asking for a proper case. However, chap himself claimed that jumping on a wagon just to get a claim is acceptable behavior. I know I had reasons to believe he was scum before. I can't recall them now, and the the thread is so long, it will never get a reread by anyone who doesn't have nigh-infinite time. Another reason we should have implemented the PRs.

@everywhere,
Originally ghost required unvotes, but recently relaxed that rule. However, unvotes do make it easier to avoid double counts in the vote count.

[chapcrap]

I should note that people are asking for a proper case. However, chap himself claimed that jumping on a wagon just to get a claim is acceptable behavior.

I claimed that it's acceptable on Day 1. Nice try.

[pmchugh]

I said that if the town supports a claim from him, then I will accept it, but that I was not going to vote. How is that admitting to sheeping when IM NOT FOLLOWING THE HERD. I said that I wanted to limit claims, and if the town thought that we should get chap's, so be it, but I was not going to support it. Read up, cause I KNOW I said that somewhere.

If you want to limit claims then surely you would want to limit them to the people you actually find scummy. If you want 2 claims tops then you should be arguing and fighting for who you think is scummy and not let other people lead you astray. Your logic doesn't add up, if you want only 1 or 2 claims and you are willing to fight that point then why are you not willing to fight against a chap claim, when you don't find him scummy?

Having said all that saf trying to "pressure" you with virtually no time left is highly suspicious and almost lynch worthy.

Ok, did you know we had no time left until new guy brought it up? I haven't seen a VC in at least 5 pages much less a reminder about time left.

Your post now technically is past deadline anyways because I haven't seen a formal extension by ghostly. Since I haven't heard any Word of God, I will continue this line of argument until he clarifies the situation.

Newguys post reminder of the time was before yours and it was very clear that we were running low on time one way or the other.

Whatever dude, it literally doesn't matter. You are holding up the game now and that is what matters.

[new guy1]

PMC- The reason I didnt mind if we got a claim from chap is because I have litterally let the town exhaust who I believe was scummy. I thought safari was scummy (not REALLY scummy, but one on the top of my personal opinion list). I litterally have zero sense in this game. It has been 20 pages of game, and 60 pages of back and forth. I HAVE GOTTEN CONFUSED. Thats why I want claims so that I can get a foothold and start up more notes instead of "no Im keeping my action secret" "no tell us" over and over again. 90% of the major conversations have led to nothing but more town claiming. I want information, but I dont want the mafia to have too much.

[safariguy5]

I said that if the town supports a claim from him, then I will accept it, but that I was not going to vote. How is that admitting to sheeping when IM NOT FOLLOWING THE HERD. I said that I wanted to limit claims, and if the town thought that we should get chap's, so be it, but I was not going to support it. Read up, cause I KNOW I said that somewhere.

If you want to limit claims then surely you would want to limit them to the people you actually find scummy. If you want 2 claims tops then you should be arguing and fighting for who you think is scummy and not let other people lead you astray. Your logic doesn't add up, if you want only 1 or 2 claims and you are willing to fight that point then why are you not willing to fight against a chap claim, when you don't find him scummy?

Having said all that saf trying to "pressure" you with virtually no time left is highly suspicious and almost lynch worthy.

Ok, did you know we had no time left until new guy brought it up? I haven't seen a VC in at least 5 pages much less a reminder about time left.

Your post now technically is past deadline anyways because I haven't seen a formal extension by ghostly. Since I haven't heard any Word of God, I will continue this line of argument until he clarifies the situation.

Newguys post reminder of the time was before yours and it was very clear that we were running low on time one way or the other.

Whatever dude, it literally doesn't matter. You are holding up the game now and that is what matters.

And what of it? Neither of these cases are particularly compelling, we have a couple of submariners, and the deadline is still in about 3 days.

I think both cases hinge on certain interpretations. Given the context of Day 1, I cannot say that I disagree with new guy with regards to limiting claims. I was one of the people who suggested we not push for extra bandwagons after the jg and jak claims. I think that that was enough. Of course, that hinged on at least getting some information from night, but that didn't work out so well.

As for the chap case, this is like the third time jak has brought him up. I'm starting to get a lyncher vibe, and honestly I don't see chap's bandwagonning any more blatant than anyone else's.

So I will unvote vote Rodion because he claimed that Day 1 he was trying to distance himself from because it was semirandom. However, he has contributed minimally if at all to Day 2, and I know he's a much better player than that. Either he's forgotten or something is up.

[chapcrap]

Good luck with that saf. He'll come back and give a recap post and then say: Well, I said I wasn't gonna be active on Day 1 and 2 before the game even began.

[safariguy5]

Good luck with that saf. He'll come back and give a recap post and then say: Well, I said I wasn't gonna be active on Day 1 and 2 before the game even began.

Doesn't mean he get's a pass for inactivity. This is just ridiculous.

[everywhere116]

I think what we need now most is a vote count. The two leading lynchees by my count are chap with 4 and new guy with 3.

[chapcrap]

Good luck with that saf. He'll come back and give a recap post and then say: Well, I said I wasn't gonna be active on Day 1 and 2 before the game even began.

Doesn't mean he get's a pass for inactivity. This is just ridiculous.

I wasn't saying I disagree with you. I was saying what was going to happen. And then, no one else will question him.

[new guy1]

I can agree on rodion. At least question him about who all he believes to be scummy as such, see if he will add new material to the game since all hes been doing is recapping all his opinions days after the subject was spoken about. I know some people get busy and cant help it, but how does he expect to be so active D3 when the date for D3 keeps getting pushed back? Do we have time travel yet? Unvote, vote rodion. I know it may be a small case of hypocricy, but I want to at least try to push a case along the way...

[ghostly447]

Official Simplified Vote Count

With 16 alive, it takes 9 to lynch


ChapCrap – Jak111, Rodion, S7C, DoomYoshi
New Guy1 – ChapCrap, TheChuck, Everywhere
S7C – Leehar
Safariguy – SG7
Rodion – Safari, New guy1

Deadline is 5/24/12 9pm EST.

@Everywhere: I was the mod that said no unvote needed, but if you can type the extra 6 letters it wont kill me either .

[Djfireside]

as stated I havent gotten then horrid vibes from chap or NG, while we need some information as everything is skewed about I will test rodion to see what we can get quickly as there isnt anything to really review and with deadline coming need something. If that turns to be naught will move around cause we need to gain some traction or will sink.

Vote Rodion

[Rodion]

Mass prod received. Catching up soon.

[Rodion]

I agree with saf about jak revealing the information.

Wanna know who I think we should pressure Saf, I'm quoting him right at this moment. He's tagging along with you if you didn't notice, he's pretty much a sheep to whatever you say.

Like I said, I'll reveal it all at once D3 or D4, depending when other power roles decide it's time. But for now, if you'll keep your mind from jumping to conclusions, I wish to keep it private to keep the mafia guessing and to decide whether or not I protect the same person.

If you really want to help Saf, the alarm in my head is buzzing all over Chap's posts even though he's careful not to make a major slip, all I can pin on him is how he's trailing the want for information train after I stated why I will not reveal it for today. It's one of those feelings you get when you know something/someone is up to no good, yet having nothing solid to pin onto them.

So what happens if we lose you to a nightkill between now and Day 3/4?

Then he will flip and any doubt concerning his alignment will be solved.

Notice that Safari asks for the night action on the premise that "he wants Jak's doctor claim to be possibly scrutinized by a watcher/tracker" (like a tracker would target the claimed doctor, yeah, right) and then keeps asking the question "out of concern that Jak is nightkilled". Either Jak IS the doctor and you trust him to keep his information concealed or he is mafia and won't get nightkilled. You cannot have both. And if he somehow is mafia and gets nightkilled, good for town.

I still think it's less than a 50% chance of getting it right, so why not share the info while you can rather than wait until you possibly can't share it tomorrow?

The whole purpose of asking who the doctor targeted is checking whether he is being truthful. Knowing who he targeted is in itself irrelevant.

Want proof? Run this simulation through your head.

"Jak says he protected Ragian. Jak later dies and flips town doctor, so you know that he did not lie when he said he targeted Ragian. Does that make Ragian any more or less likely to be town?"

No, it doesn't.

I really don't care if I get lynched for this, but I'm going to vote jak until he gives us the night action. At this point, you could equally be mafia fakeclaiming doc as you could be the real doc.

Jester much?

2.) Just so the town can see, if they do decide to start voting the claimed doc I'll let them lynch me to show how poorly you two misjudge people and their intentions.

Important post here. When Jak said he'd rather be lynched on principle than disclose his action, you either trust him or vote him with the specific goal of accomplishing his lynch.

Sadly in reading this it is going back and forth and the overall fact is that it appears Jak will not budge from their path which leaves us at a impass.

...

At this point I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt

DJ gets it.

What happens if you are killed tonight jak? We'll lose your night action as well as any possible future information?

Brings up the same flawed catch again. I'm surprised nobody picks these things up if I'm not around.

Which part of your argument has everyone ignored?

I never believed he was the town doctor anyways Unvote vote jak.

Stop being a dick, so we can continue playing the game.

Yoshi wants Jak's lynch. You can call it "Jester much: part II" if you want to.

i was siding with jak earlier. but now im seeing what everyone is saying. and if your thinking about saving the same person i would be supriesed if you didnt think of the idea of saying your night action saying your gonna protect that person then actually protect someone else therefore doccing on two instead of just one. and what makes you so sure you wont die tonight. it seems to me that its highly possible unless your protecting yourself. and if your do then we wont have that info. but then again when your dead that info doesnt help us so if your dead then why would we need your info to catch you in a lie if your dead. so really its best if you give it right now. if we dont get your info as soon as possible then we might not get it at all. and if voting for you is the only way to do it then so be it.unvote vote jak hopefully this doesnt come to far so you might as well tell.

Clever wants Jak's lynch. The Return of the Jester.

To be quite fair, Clever expresses he does not want this to "come too far", meaning he is merely threatening Jak to get the information he wants. Still enough to prove skimming of a clutch aspect of the game, as Jak mentioned he'd rather get lynched than disclose the info.

Stop contradicting yourselves of "We need to prove you are town, yet you might not make it until tomorrow to prove it" If I don't make it until tomorrow then trust me, it'll be proven in my death.

Oh, wait, someone else realized that as well. Which means Chap will call me out on not being original again. See if I care.

At least question him about who all he believes to be scummy as such, see if he will add new material to the game since all hes been doing is recapping all his opinions days after the subject was spoken about. I know some people get busy and cant help it, but how does he expect to be so active D3 when the date for D3 keeps getting pushed back? Do we have time travel yet? Unvote, vote rodion. I know it may be a small case of hypocricy, but I want to at least try to push a case along the way...

Hard to add new material when you've all been wasting countless days/pages failing hard on the Jak stalemate. If not sooner, the discussion should have ended when Jak posted he'd rather get lynched than claim, yet you all still argued and he even got a couple more votes.

lolwut? You think this game will never reach D3?

My vote remains on Chap, but I'm happy to lynch Yoshi/Clever for voting Jak (still keep Saf on the backburner for reasons I've already mentioned).

[safariguy5]

Really Rodion? I thought we were past this.

Just because you believe someone is the doc one day does not mean you always believe that person is doctor. Once claimed, I see no real disadvantage to claiming night actions as doc, with a small advantage that if the person was fakeclaiming, he would get called out for it.

With a no risk small reward course of action with regards to town, I see no real reason not to do it.

Regardless, you spend 80% of your post rehashing the jak night action thing and then end with a bandwagon and minimal reasoning towards chap.

[Rodion]

Really Rodion? I thought we were past this.

Just because you believe someone is the doc one day does not mean you always believe that person is doctor. Once claimed, I see no real disadvantage to claiming night actions as doc, with a small advantage that if the person was fakeclaiming, he would get called out for it.

With a no risk small reward course of action with regards to town, I see no real reason not to do it.

Have you considered that the small reward of "allowing a watcher/tracker a 10% shot (at best) at proving Jak fakeclaimed IF he is mafia" might not be as valuable as Jak's small reward of "not letting mafia know who he targeted and intends to target again"? I have. Frankly, you are both arguing over peanuts as disclosing his information or not is pretty much irrelevant in my opinion. You should have all stopped pages/days ago, yet you escalated this into voting an uncounterclaimed doctor.

Regardless, you spend 80% of your post rehashing the jak night action thing

I believe 80% (roughly) of the last pages were (mistakenly) focused around Jak's debate, even after his "lynch me if you want, I won't be claiming" reverse ultimatum.

and then end with a bandwagon

I did not bandwagon anyone. I just kept my vote where it was.

and minimal reasoning towards chap.

You'll see it as minimal reasoning (or, frankly, "no reasoning at all") as long as you only consider my last post. I've already explained why I'm voting Chap in previous posts and I elaborated back when Ragian asked.

[Rodion]

Also, have I mentioned that it is pretty stupid to demand me to come up with "original stuff" when, in spite of the number of pages/days, this day has been pretty much focused in 1-2 topics that I didn't even want to mention (because you'd have to see me being condescending/rude AGAIN)?

[jak111]

Well, I think Rodion just blew Saf out of the water with that one. That's not even me being biased, it's me saying that Rodion did a much better argument than mine, Saf, and anyone elses posts on the case combined.

Anyhow, if you'd like to be productive Saf, there's an opening on Chap that we need filled. Either you want to help town, or you're going to stay in your little fit about whether or not I'm doc.

[thechuck51]

A jak blast from the past...

If I hear one more bs case on jg between tonight and tomorrow in rl time, I'm going to flip and not use my power. (NOT JOKING) So be warned.

and more recently...

No, I gave my answer, so Chap, Saf, good luck in pressuring me into it. 1.) People won't do it because they believe the claimed doc over a claimed VT and a guy we've been voting against. 2.) Just so the town can see, if they do decide to start voting the claimed doc I'll let them lynch me to show how poorly you two misjudge people and their intentions.

So our claimed doc is willing to not use his powers to protect somebody and willing let himself be lynched to teach us all a lesson but he is unwilling to share his night actions? doesn't seem right but as has been pointed out he has not been counter-claimed so until he is proven to be mafia I will not vote for him.

Which reminds me, stop sidetracking everyone in the game with this nonsense. Right now Chap is where we seem to have the most pressure on, so if a few would like to help out with that I'll give you a freebie in my mind, only because it wouldn't be keeping us at a stand still because Chap and Saf wish to stall the game into the night.

I think new guy has as many votes as chap right now so I think people should help out there instead. You two are way to chummy with each other and since he isn't a claimed power role I see no reason not to pressure him.

[safariguy5]

Well, I think Rodion just blew Saf out of the water with that one. That's not even me being biased, it's me saying that Rodion did a much better argument than mine, Saf, and anyone elses posts on the case combined.

Anyhow, if you'd like to be productive Saf, there's an opening on Chap that we need filled. Either you want to help town, or you're going to stay in your little fit about whether or not I'm doc.

You act like the chap case is the only case out there. I'm unsatisfied by Rodion's activity level this game especially in comparison to the other games I've seen him play. The fact that you seem to rely on my vote to get enough votes to get a claim out of chap highlights how weak your case on him really is.

[pmchugh]

A jak blast from the past...

If I hear one more bs case on jg between tonight and tomorrow in rl time, I'm going to flip and not use my power. (NOT JOKING) So be warned.

and more recently...

No, I gave my answer, so Chap, Saf, good luck in pressuring me into it. 1.) People won't do it because they believe the claimed doc over a claimed VT and a guy we've been voting against. 2.) Just so the town can see, if they do decide to start voting the claimed doc I'll let them lynch me to show how poorly you two misjudge people and their intentions.

So our claimed doc is willing to not use his powers to protect somebody and willing let himself be lynched to teach us all a lesson but he is unwilling to share his night actions? doesn't seem right but as has been pointed out he has not been counter-claimed so until he is proven to be mafia I will not vote for him.

Which reminds me, stop sidetracking everyone in the game with this nonsense. Right now Chap is where we seem to have the most pressure on, so if a few would like to help out with that I'll give you a freebie in my mind, only because it wouldn't be keeping us at a stand still because Chap and Saf wish to stall the game into the night.

I think new guy has as many votes as chap right now so I think people should help out there instead. You two are way to chummy with each other and since he isn't a claimed power role I see no reason not to pressure him.

My god are you serious?

The first part is yet another instance where you have pressurised jak, if you are going to counter claim you may as well do it now as that seems to be what you are setting up to do.

[everywhere116]

Since we have 8 hours to go and I've never been one to maintain a split vote count, Unvote vote chap

[Djfireside]

Sadly everywhere is right we are running out of time so I guess in aspect of quick game Chap you may want to speak up quickly cause we are approaching the end all so Ill put small pressure to see if we can force the issue.

UNVOTE

VOTE Chap