Battle of the Bulge - CLOSED

[pmchugh]

Oh god clever and new guy drunk

[Rodion]

To be honest I don't see much merrit in the new guy case but something is off about Rodions last post, he seems to be saying that new guy lied and that he is OK with this. What happened to LAL?

It's a rule, but there are exceptions to the LAL protocol. This would be one, where someone comes home to see someone else requesting him to be vigged and the deadline was either about to be over or actually over. I don't know whether New Guy lied or not, but even if he did I think he shouldn't be held accountable for it under these circumstances, let alone if he didn't actually lie and merely "forgot" what he had to say.

Think of it this way: if NG is a town power role, it's in his best interest to stay alive. If he lacks the time to build a proper defense because he was threatened moments before the deadline, should he just bend over and take the risk of being killed? My ruling is that it would have been an excusable lie.

[pmchugh]

To be honest I don't see much merrit in the new guy case but something is off about Rodions last post, he seems to be saying that new guy lied and that he is OK with this. What happened to LAL?

It's a rule, but there are exceptions to the LAL protocol. This would be one, where someone comes home to see someone else requesting him to be vigged and the deadline was either about to be over or actually over. I don't know whether New Guy lied or not, but even if he did I think he shouldn't be held accountable for it under these circumstances, let alone if he didn't actually lie and merely "forgot" what he had to say.

Think of it this way: if NG is a town power role, it's in his best interest to stay alive. If he lacks the time to build a proper defense because he was threatened moments before the deadline, should he just bend over and take the risk of being killed? My ruling is that it would have been an excusable lie.

Would it be excusable to continue to lie about it the next day?

[new guy1]

Im not lieing -_-. I do not like being called a liar when I am being honest, so I would prefer comments like "would it be excusable to continue to lie about it the next day?" be something more like "If he were to be lieing about it the next day, would it be excusable". And to throw in my 5 cents worth again, I was not and am not lieing, I had something typed up and then I got fastposted and did not want to be mod killed... Thank you for whoever posted about the vig, I was posting to say I found it scummy that he was directing the vig so close to the deadline with nobody else's input, which seemed scummy to me. I am 95% sure that that was the main body to my post.

[Rodion]

Would it be excusable to continue to lie about it the next day?

That's arguable. If you took the gamble of lying to survive you may be afraid of coming clean later since people could hop on your confession, write LAL and vote you.

You seem to be missing the main point of my posts, though, namely that:
a) we are not sure whether NG lied or not, which would be the most damning evidence against him
b) even if he did lie, I do not consider his bandwagon legit because of the extenuating circumstances that made him lie (Yoshi's unjustified vig request)

[Some7hingCLEVER]

im completly lost with the whole thing that is going on right now. what did he lie about? i dont think he lied i think he honestly forgot what he was gonna say. and he actually says a few post ago that he is pretty sure it was on that basis of doom calling out and guiding the vig.

[new guy1]

Im 95% percent sure. I am not absolutly sure, I just had a vision of some of the lines and I remember thinking that and something with the way rodion said it made it seem familiar. So again, Im not 100% but I would bet money that that is what I was trying to get out before the deadline, ironically right after the deadline (I say ironically cause another case is that I posted right after ghostly, hahaha).

[Some7hingCLEVER]

Im 95% percent sure. I am not absolutly sure, I just had a vision of some of the lines and I remember thinking that and something with the way rodion said it made it seem familiar. So again, Im not 100% but I would bet money that that is what I was trying to get out before the deadline, ironically right after the deadline (I say ironically cause another case is that I posted right after ghostly, hahaha).

ha so now your psychic?

[DoomYoshi]

Ok, Rodion, if it is so scummy to direct the vig (you probably know that I will never say directing power roles is scummy under any circumstances); and the vig had listened, and I was wrong I would have been accountable for it today.

As such, if I am wrong about new guy, vig me tonight or lynch me tomorrow.

Nobody would say anything like that; unless they knew. It is damnable evidence. New guy admitted to being mafia.

[Some7hingCLEVER]

Ok, Rodion, if it is so scummy to direct the vig (you probably know that I will never say directing power roles is scummy under any circumstances); and the vig had listened, and I was wrong I would have been accountable for it today.

As such, if I am wrong about new guy, vig me tonight or lynch me tomorrow.

Nobody would say anything like that; unless they knew. It is damnable evidence. New guy admitted to being mafia.

where?

[pmchugh]

Im not lieing -_-. I do not like being called a liar when I am being honest,

If you don't lie when you are mafia then you are doing it wrong It is part of the game, so don't take offense lol.

Would it be excusable to continue to lie about it the next day?

That's arguable. If you took the gamble of lying to survive you may be afraid of coming clean later since people could hop on your confession, write LAL and vote you.

You seem to be missing the main point of my posts, though, namely that:
a) we are not sure whether NG lied or not, which would be the most damning evidence against him
b) even if he did lie, I do not consider his bandwagon legit because of the extenuating circumstances that made him lie (Yoshi's unjustified vig request)

It seems like you have been sticking up for new guy because it was the popular thing to do (and he has softed a pr) to gain town cred. I don't like your reasoning, with how fervently he has been saying that he is telling the truth to still give him leeway to be lying is OTT. I think at this point you have to either believe him or think him scum.

Now add to this the fact that you were one of the most supportive of chap getting lynched yet you were not willing to hammer him is enough to earn you my vote rodion.

Looking at the reasons why he did this, it doesn't seem to stack up either.

So, Rodion votes me, but doesn't believe enough that I am scum to be the hammer?

"Precisely."

"See how scummy Rodion is?"

"Maybe we should lynch Rodion instead of Chap."

"Makes sense. Vote Rodion".

I taught you this trick, Chap, I find it hard to believe you're trying to pull this on me (especially after I just linked proof of that). For the others, the link had Strike voting me yet "not believing enough that I was scum to be the hammer". It's funny because now I am Strike and Chap is Rodion (without the smarts).

This is a really bad defense, rather than explain why he doesn't want to hammer he diverts attention back on to chap. Ironically by accusing him of diverting attention.

Good question, Jak. Being that Chap's vote is currently placed on New Guy, which means New Guy is the most suspicious player according to Chap, logic would dictate that Chap wanted New Guy to be the hammer. Yet he doesn't.

You can't comprehend his move without knowing a certain meta, so here goes.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 0&t=156562 - read D2 if you have patience, that should explain a lot

Basically, Chap is trying to live by nominating me. He knows I value myself so highly that I would never volunteer to hammer and risk dying (even if I am a VT), so by pressuring me he could perhaps make me look bad and shift attention off of himself.

The important question is whether Chap is mafia pulling this move to survive or town pulling this move to survive (and if he is town, he could be town bomb or town non-bomb).

Either way, Jak should not hammer. Those of you who read D2 of NBC Mafia know I will not either.

Now, when is meta a bad thing to use? When you use it on yourself, poor defense. Again he is shifting the attention and it shows something about the fear of dying that Rodion has. If you had doubts about chaps guilt then why were you so for his lynch? I think you are more balsy than you made out and just because you refused to hammer once before does not excuse you from doing this forever.

Personally I think Rodion has acted egotistically and has even advocated newguy acting egotistically, I think this goes beyond play style.

[new guy1]

Doomyoshi. Can you get that post that I apparently admitted to being mafia. The one that I didnt respond to?

[Some7hingCLEVER]

ya if you admitted to it ill vote you lol but i never saw that

[DoomYoshi]

The original question "I don't know if a mod etc." is the one that I view as an admission of being mafia. I was sure of it then, and am sure of it now. Mind you, I am fairly bullheaded in these things

[new guy1]

Oh, okay thats been covered I have no concern. Nice try, but I dont feel like that confirms Im mafia, but then again I do have a bias.

[Some7hingCLEVER]

The original question "I don't know if a mod etc." is the one that I view as an admission of being mafia. I was sure of it then, and am sure of it now. Mind you, I am fairly bullheaded in these things

ya i dont see how that is a confirm of mafia can you explain? i really dont see how that can be

[safariguy5]

Here's the problem I see here. Rodion has been perfectly willing, even boastful about his ability to direct town actions. Now, he takes issue with Doom directing a vig action, which honestly sounds like a double standard here. If Rodion thinks it's acceptable to direct town actions, then he shouldn't discount other people doing the same thing.

unvote vote Rodion

[everywhere116]

Ok, Rodion, if it is so scummy to direct the vig (you probably know that I will never say directing power roles is scummy under any circumstances); and the vig had listened, and I was wrong I would have been accountable for it today.

As such, if I am wrong about new guy, vig me tonight or lynch me tomorrow.

Nobody would say anything like that; unless they knew. It is damnable evidence. New guy admitted to being mafia.

*facepalm*

You're really hurting your case with statements like that.

[Ragian]

Oh, okay thats been covered I have no concern. Nice try, but I dont feel like that confirms Im mafia, but then again I do have a bias.

Ahm ... I have a problem with this statement. To have something confirm that you are mafia would indeed require that you are mafia. This is you admitting to being mafia then

[Some7hingCLEVER]

Oh, okay thats been covered I have no concern. Nice try, but I dont feel like that confirms Im mafia, but then again I do have a bias.

Ahm ... I have a problem with this statement. To have something confirm that you are mafia would indeed require that you are mafia. This is you admitting to being mafia then

what? people are twisting words here like i have never seen before. read it in context. he was accused of saying he was mafia. if i told you you admitted to it. does that mean you are mafia? RAGIAN ADMITTED TO BEING MAFIA. now think if i made something up like "oh he said it in this line blah blah blah" what would you say to it. no i didnt admit to it. your making him look scum for saying the only thing he could.

bad example i know but im trying to get the point across.

[new guy1]

I got the point S7C, and that is one of my points exactly. Both doom and Ragain are twisting my words to say what they want to hear, and its getting rather frustrating in my opinion.

[pmchugh]

Oh, okay thats been covered I have no concern. Nice try, but I dont feel like that confirms Im mafia, but then again I do have a bias.

Ahm ... I have a problem with this statement. To have something confirm that you are mafia would indeed require that you are mafia. This is you admitting to being mafia then

You serious? No one admits to being mafia and this sounds like a rather poor attempt to get the ball rolling on him FOS.

[Rodion]

It seems like you have been sticking up for new guy because it was the popular thing to do (and he has softed a pr) to gain town cred.

You couldn't be more wrong. Go back to page 94, where Yoshi voted NG. Between his vote and my "sticking up" there were 8 posts. How many of those stated they were against NG's case, thus allowing me to diagnose "sticking up for NG" as "the popular thing to do"?

Zero.

I don't like your reasoning, with how fervently he has been saying that he is telling the truth to still give him leeway to be lying is OTT.

Online game.
Not all players are online at the same time.
Timezones vary at least from USA West Coast to South Africa.
As a consequence, the game is not "real time" and game days have multiple RL days of deadline.
In fact, this day took 15-16 days (depending on whether you count the "a lynch has occurred" post or the "lynch scene" post).
2 hours and 10 minutes before the deadline (after more than 99% of D2 had elapsed), Yoshi twists NG's quote and requests that the vig kill NG.
Do you really find it "OTT" that I wouldn't see harm in a lie that kept the vig from carrying Yoshi's action on?

I think at this point you have to either believe him or think him scum.

I disagree.

Clever did say they were intoxicated that day, but only after NG privately told Clever about the circumstances because he did not want "the truth" out on the internet. To me it's clear that "the truth" was not thoroughly explained. Maybe they were drunk. Maybe they were intoxicated with drugs. Perhaps they were having an homossexual affair. Or perhaps they were busy murdering someone that day. Another possibility is that they are scumbuddies with daytalk and wanted to have a conference before posting in public. They could also be masons with daytalk trying to figure the best thing to say in order to avoid a claim.

Amidst all those possibilities (and I only listed a few), do you know where the beauty of it all lies in?

As I have already established that lying would not have been punishable due to the circumstances, I don't have to worry about believing him or not. It's a null tell for me.

Going to say it one more time for didactic purposes: I DON'T CARE.

Now add to this the fact that you were one of the most supportive of chap getting lynched yet you were not willing to hammer him is enough to earn you my vote rodion.

Disregarded the rest of the post for the sake of simplicity.

After Chap claimed, I posted a link to a game. How much of that did you read?

I'll answer this after you reply, as the depth of my answer should vary depending on how "up to date" you are with what REALLY happened (hint: if you did not read the link I posted, it's pretty hard for you to comprehend what actually happened with Chap's claim).

Here's the problem I see here. Rodion has been perfectly willing, even boastful about his ability to direct town actions. Now, he takes issue with Doom directing a vig action, which honestly sounds like a double standard here. If Rodion thinks it's acceptable to direct town actions, then he shouldn't discount other people doing the same thing.

unvote vote Rodion

Apples and oranges, Saf.

1 - Yoshi literally "sneaked" his direction in the last minutes/hours of the day.
2 - When I direct night actions, they usually happen in 1 of 2 scenarios (Yoshi did neither of those):
a) obvious directions that shouldn't really have to be said but I say anyway because I don't trust people to be smart ("watch the doctor", "protect the cop" and so on)
b) post-massclaim directions, when I try to tell which players are lying after all cards have been laid out on the table

This is already enough to explain why I took issue with what Yoshi did, but the answer wouldn't be complete if I didn't talk a little about the double standard thing, wouldn't it? So to throw you your cookie (and this has nothing to do with the Yoshi vote, more to how I generally play games, mafia or not), I allow myself liberties that I don't like other people to take for themselves because I feel they are not smart enough to use them properly, unlike me. Yes, I'm as arrogant as one can be. You should know that by now.

[Rodion]

I allow myself liberties that I don't like other people to take for themselves because I feel they are not smart enough to use them properly, unlike me.

Wow!

This is exactly what Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov (from Dostoevsky's "Crime and Punishment") would have said when he divided people between ordinary and extraordinary.

The similarities have just frightened me a little.

[Ragian]

It was semantics to me.