Do women make less than men?

[Mr_Adams]

Fact or fake?

[greenoaks]

they make more sandwiches than men

[nietzsche]

they make more drama than men

[rdsrds2120]

They make better jokes than nietzsche.

-rd

[Baron Von PWN]

according to this http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763170.html as recently as 2009 women made about 77 cents for every dollar men did.

This times article seems to back them up citing census data.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 85,00.html

[huamulan]

When negotiating remuneration packages, men are more likely to ask for higher pay and women are more likely to ask for extra holiday/flexible working.

There are ways in which women are directly/indirectly discriminated against in various employment markets but it's bogus to suggest that bosses are sitting around thinking 'stupid woman let's pay her less'.

[PLAYER57832]

according to this http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763170.html as recently as 2009 women made about 77 cents for every dollar men did.

This times article seems to back them up citing census data.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 85,00.html

When you go beyond just the pay the exact or very similar jobs get, it is much worse. Jobs that are traditionally women's pay less just from the outset.

Just as an example, a cook in the local hospital makes just $10 an hour, but even the lowest skilled maintenance person makes over $15.00. (the lawn mower, painter).

A supply clerk, who basically just takes in/checks shipping items and brings them to the appropriate department began at $10.00 and was full time. A food service person starts at minimum wage, though in many ways the job is actually more skilled (can include cooking, checking inventories as well as cleaning using hazardous chemicals- particularly to clean the fryer and grill).

Elementary and secondary school teachers are notoriously among lower paid but high skilled/demanding jobs.

[PLAYER57832]

When negotiating remuneration packages, men are more likely to ask for higher pay and women are more likely to ask for extra holiday/flexible working.

Few women even HAVE jobs where they can negotiate anything.. try beginning there.

Women who, as you say "demand" things are "b*tches". Men who do the exact same or who are even outright jerks are just "asssertive" or "playing the game".

There are ways in which women are directly/indirectly discriminated against in various employment markets but it's bogus to suggest that bosses are sitting around thinking 'stupid woman let's pay her less'.

As long as people like to pretend that is what is being said by anyone.. nothing WILL change.

[huamulan]

'Few women even HAVE jobs'

Try again. Where do you live? Saudi Arabia? In a country like Sweden male and female employment levels are almost identical.

When did I ever say that women who demand things are bitches? You appear to be putting a lot of words in my mouth that I never said.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

wheeeeeeeee player vs. new meat.

-TG

[PLAYER57832]

'Few women even HAVE jobs'

Try again. Where do you live? Saudi Arabia? In a country like Sweden male and female employment levels are almost identical.

Yeah you can change a lot of meanings by cutting off half a sentence.

Try the full quote-- "few women have jobs where they can negotiate pay.

When did I ever say that women who demand things are bitches? You appear to be putting a lot of words in my mouth that I never said.

LOL..LOL

No, I did not say you said women were bitches, I said that is how we are viewed. And.. yet, a lot of young men such as yourself dismiss our complaints with the oh so easy "if only you were ....[fillin the blank.. "more professional', "less nasty", "more assertive", "took the right degrees/training",, etc].

Now, my position, from the outset is that there is nothing at all equitable or "fair" about the job market from the outset, but it is more heavily skewed against women than men.

Its part (not all) of why despite a degree at a well known university, multiple publications in my field, etc... I cannot, now get any job in my field. But, both the guy who worked beside me on the project that I (not he) olargely designed, and the guy who's PhD thesis I wrote are all still working in the same place.

[greenoaks]

they make more drama than men

fact


1 woman has posted in this thread and she has created more drama than all of us, combined

[Mr_Adams]

My reason for asking is this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwogDPh-Sow

[thegreekdog]

When negotiating remuneration packages, men are more likely to ask for higher pay and women are more likely to ask for extra holiday/flexible working.

Few women even HAVE jobs where they can negotiate anything.. try beginning there.

Women who, as you say "demand" things are "b*tches". Men who do the exact same or who are even outright jerks are just "asssertive" or "playing the game".

There are ways in which women are directly/indirectly discriminated against in various employment markets but it's bogus to suggest that bosses are sitting around thinking 'stupid woman let's pay her less'.

As long as people like to pretend that is what is being said by anyone.. nothing WILL change.

Let's examine this discussion structurally:

- huamulan makes a comparison (men ask for money, women ask for flexibility). He/she does not use the word "demand."
- Player interprets huamulan's statement to use the word "demand" rather than "ask" and once Player has seen huamulan's paragraph in that light, she feels empowered to say that women who "demand" are bitches and men who "demand" (note she did not use the term) are assertive.

- huamulan indicates that men don't discriminate against women directly (which I think is true).
- Player indicates that if people pretend it doesn't happen, nothing will change. I think Player misstated what she wanted to say. I think she wanted to agree with huamulan, but further explain that the lack of direct discrimination does not mean there is not any indirect discrimination.

[Woodruff]

When did I ever say that women who demand things are bitches? You appear to be putting a lot of words in my mouth that I never said.

LOL..LOL
No, I did not say you said women were bitches, I said that is how we are viewed.

Actually, you really DID say that...go ahead and look up above. I took it exactly the same way that huamulan did.

And.. yet, a lot of young men such as yourself dismiss our complaints with the oh so easy "if only you were ....[fillin the blank.. "more professional', "less nasty", "more assertive", "took the right degrees/training",, etc].

And yet, huamulan never even hinted at holding such a position, so it seems a bit unfair for you to word it in this way.

[thegreekdog]

'Few women even HAVE jobs'

Try again. Where do you live? Saudi Arabia? In a country like Sweden male and female employment levels are almost identical.

Yeah you can change a lot of meanings by cutting off half a sentence.

Try the full quote-- "few women have jobs where they can negotiate pay.

When did I ever say that women who demand things are bitches? You appear to be putting a lot of words in my mouth that I never said.

LOL..LOL

No, I did not say you said women were bitches, I said that is how we are viewed. And.. yet, a lot of young men such as yourself dismiss our complaints with the oh so easy "if only you were ....[fillin the blank.. "more professional', "less nasty", "more assertive", "took the right degrees/training",, etc].

Now, my position, from the outset is that there is nothing at all equitable or "fair" about the job market from the outset, but it is more heavily skewed against women than men.

Its part (not all) of why despite a degree at a well known university, multiple publications in my field, etc... I cannot, now get any job in my field. But, both the guy who worked beside me on the project that I (not he) olargely designed, and the guy who's PhD thesis I wrote are all still working in the same place.

Part Two

- hualuman tries to ignore Player's assertion that women cannot negotiate their pay, etc. by throwing a straw man. Note, that he could have asked for Player to provide proof.
- Player responds appropriately.

- Player responds appropriately to hualuman's assertion that he did not refer to women as bitches. But then she says that "young men like you..." which opens up a whole new can of worms.

I'm excited for this thread.

[Neoteny]

Neoteny posts one-liner about thegreekdog's pretentious summary.

[thegreekdog]

Neoteny posts one-liner about thegreekdog's pretentious summary.

Yeah, that was pretty pretentious.

[Haggis_McMutton]

Neoteny posts one-liner about thegreekdog's pretentious summary.

Haggis posts about his wishes that everyone would start talking like Neo and that this thread would go all meta.

[Haggis_McMutton]

Anyway, questions:

Are women more likely than men to put their family before their careers somewhere down the line?

If such a statistical difference exists is it sexist for an employer to take it into account when making hiring decisions?

[thegreekdog]

Anyway, questions:

Are women more likely than men to put their family before their careers somewhere down the line?

If such a statistical difference exists is it sexist for an employer to take it into account when making hiring decisions?

I don't know the answer to the first question.

My answer to the second question is yes if the employer thinks that the employee is a woman and will therefore put their family before their careers somewhere down the line. If the female employee does not indicate that she will put her family before her career somewhere down the line, it's clearly discriminatory if the employer does not hire her for that reason.

[AndyDufresne]

Neoteny posts one-liner about thegreekdog's pretentious summary.

Yeah, that was pretty pretentious.

TGD, could you please change your avatar to this pretentious image?




--Andy

[thegreekdog]

Neoteny posts one-liner about thegreekdog's pretentious summary.

Yeah, that was pretty pretentious.

TGD, could you please change your avatar to this pretentious image?




--Andy

I think having a bust of Pericles as my avatar is pretentious enough. Plus that cat is more cute than pretentious.

[Woodruff]

Anyway, questions:

Are women more likely than men to put their family before their careers somewhere down the line?

That certainly used to be the case. I'm not sure it is significantly so these days.

If such a statistical difference exists is it sexist for an employer to take it into account when making hiring decisions?

That's a tough one. I think an employer has a bit of an obligation to CONSIDER it as a factor, but I'm not sure if it would be ethical to put it into practice for the group as a whole.

[AndyDufresne]

Neoteny posts one-liner about thegreekdog's pretentious summary.

Yeah, that was pretty pretentious.

TGD, could you please change your avatar to this pretentious image?




--Andy

I think having a bust of Pericles as my avatar is pretentious enough. Plus that cat is more cute than pretentious.

Maybe you can become Conquer Club's 'cutentious' poster?


--Andy