CCup 4 format discussion (ver 5, p. 28)

[Bruceswar]

BTW on a personal note I do not think any clan should get a 2 round bye. That is not fair for anybody involved. Also I think the F 400 should be used as seeding and those not on it will just have to start at the back.

So what have you done to promote these ideas? Anything? I thought as a CD your body was all about 'fairness' in regard to this event. So will you voice your opinion, or vote on it? And have you considered the ramifications for the clans that are about to embark on another lengthy challenge (in CC3) and the timeframe for the new tournament?

I too think all clans should start from the beginning, i.e. Round 1, but there are ramifications; a point I raised in an earlier post which has been conveniently overlooked (as it has been for the point on repetitive encounters, but then I'm perfectly happy meeting Kort again in an early round).

Congrats and welcome to the world of KORT. The past 3 cups have overlapped for us. We got no special treatment and nor should anybody else. Not once in any cup has someone got 2 bye's. The only clans to get any bye's are the ones needed to make the numbers even. Top 3 or 4 as I remember. It should be kept the same as all previous cups.

[chapcrap]

BTW on a personal note I do not think any clan should get a 2 round bye. That is not fair for anybody involved. Also I think the F 400 should be used as seeding and those not on it will just have to start at the back.

So what have you done to promote these ideas? Anything? I thought as a CD your body was all about 'fairness' in regard to this event. So will you voice your opinion, or vote on it? And have you considered the ramifications for the clans that are about to embark on another lengthy challenge (in CC3) and the timeframe for the new tournament?

I too think all clans should start from the beginning, i.e. Round 1, but there are ramifications; a point I raised in an earlier post which has been conveniently overlooked (as it has been for the point on repetitive encounters, but then I'm perfectly happy meeting Kort again in an early round).

Congrats and welcome to the world of KORT. The past 3 cups have overlapped for us. We got no special treatment and nor should anybody else. Not once in any cup has someone got 2 bye's. The only clans to get any bye's are the ones needed to make the numbers even. Top 3 or 4 as I remember. It should be kept the same as all previous cups.

HALLELUJAH!!!

[Chariot of Fire]

BTW on a personal note I do not think any clan should get a 2 round bye. That is not fair for anybody involved. Also I think the F 400 should be used as seeding and those not on it will just have to start at the back.

So what have you done to promote these ideas? Anything? I thought as a CD your body was all about 'fairness' in regard to this event. So will you voice your opinion, or vote on it? And have you considered the ramifications for the clans that are about to embark on another lengthy challenge (in CC3) and the timeframe for the new tournament?

I too think all clans should start from the beginning, i.e. Round 1, but there are ramifications; a point I raised in an earlier post which has been conveniently overlooked (as it has been for the point on repetitive encounters, but then I'm perfectly happy meeting Kort again in an early round).

Congrats and welcome to the world of KORT. The past 3 cups have overlapped for us. We got no special treatment and nor should anybody else. Not once in any cup has someone got 2 bye's. The only clans to get any bye's are the ones needed to make the numbers even. Top 3 or 4 as I remember. It should be kept the same as all previous cups.

It should be, but will it? You didn't really answer my question.

[Dako]

It should be, but will it? You didn't really answer my question.

He cannot answer it because he is not the one to make a final call here. I will do it once the discussions have settled.

[chapcrap]

It should be, but will it? You didn't really answer my question.

He cannot answer it because he is not the one to make a final call here. I will do it once the discussions have settled.

As a member of one of the top ranked clans, do you really think you should make the call to give yourself a bye?

[josko.ri]

It should be, but will it? You didn't really answer my question.

He cannot answer it because he is not the one to make a final call here. I will do it once the discussions have settled.

As a member of one of the top ranked clans, do you really think you should make the call to give yourself a bye?

I think not, Chuuuuck had that power because this competition was started and made by him. After him I do not see a reason why only one person should decide in behalf of all clans for something that is not made by him. Give to people what they want (voting system is the only way to show what is it), not to one player what he wants.

[Dako]

As a member of one of the top ranked clans, do you really think you should make the call to give yourself a bye?

I don't make CCup decisions from TOFU standpoint.

[josko.ri]

As a member of one of the top ranked clans, do you really think you should make the call to give yourself a bye?

I don't make CCup decisions from TOFU standpoint.

If this is true, why then Doc_Brown is explaining to me what did you mean with your format suggestion? How does he know what did you mean with your idea? I do not see in the thread that he had suggested something like that before and now he clarifies it. Obviously that is some idea coming from inside TOFU forum, if someone who is not the idea presenter is explaining what is meaning of the idea in its essence.

[Dako]

As a member of one of the top ranked clans, do you really think you should make the call to give yourself a bye?

I don't make CCup decisions from TOFU standpoint.

If this is true, why then Doc_Brown is explaining to me what did you mean with your format suggestion? How does he know what did you mean with your idea? I do not see in the thread that he had suggested something like that before and now he clarifies it. Obviously that is some idea coming from inside TOFU forum, if someone who is not the idea presenter is explaining what is meaning of the idea in its essence.

Ahahahahaa. That was a good one.

[josko.ri]

As a member of one of the top ranked clans, do you really think you should make the call to give yourself a bye?

I don't make CCup decisions from TOFU standpoint.

If this is true, why then Doc_Brown is explaining to me what did you mean with your format suggestion? How does he know what did you mean with your idea? I do not see in the thread that he had suggested something like that before and now he clarifies it. Obviously that is some idea coming from inside TOFU forum, if someone who is not the idea presenter is explaining what is meaning of the idea in its essence.

Ahahahahaa. That was a good one.

You may sell fog, but someones are smart enough to see inside the fog

[Doc_Brown]

Josko: I was not attempting to explain anything to you earlier in this thread. The explanation was meant to clarify the math error (that you had already noted) for everyone else. If you had tried to be helpful in your post rather than just attack Dako, my post would not have been necessary. As for your newest paranoia, TOFU has no internal discussions about this. There is a thread directing any members with an interest to come here and comment. I thought it was pretty clear what Dako's intent was, but maybe that's because I'm trusting that he'll make good decisions as the tournent organizer, and I'm trying to understand his goals and help them come to fruition rather than ignoring them and pushing my own agenda.

[chapcrap]

As a member of one of the top ranked clans, do you really think you should make the call to give yourself a bye?

I don't make CCup decisions from TOFU standpoint.

Well, then I hope you're not going to be giving byes.

IMO, the only thing that needs work is the schedule. The event shouldn't take a year unless people are dragging their feet and not creating games in a timely manner. Last year there were 33 clans. That's basically 5 rounds. 5 wars should be able to be completed by the slothiest of people within a year.

[Dako]

Well, then I hope you're not going to be giving byes.

IMO, the only thing that needs work is the schedule. The event shouldn't take a year unless people are dragging their feet and not creating games in a timely manner. Last year there were 33 clans. That's basically 5 rounds. 5 wars should be able to be completed by the slothiest of people within a year.

Schedule will be obeyed! I promise that. I doubt we will be able to finish this in 2013, but I expect finals to start around January. I hope it will be possible to do so.

[josko.ri]

If you had tried to be helpful in your post rather than just attack Dako, my post would not have been necessary.

I had tried, but have been ignored. As a person who had suggested something, I have right to criticize if domain of my suggestion was not done correctly. Yeah, I know Dako said that he made #4 draft in 2 a.m., but what he have been doing in drafts #1, #2, #3? If basic mathematical error in bracket happens in draft #4 after several weeks after the discussion had started, and even after previous warning that there had been the mathematical error present, what to expect other than receiving criticism for his work?

[Qwert]

Well the problem with this is, doing a random draw (or whatever josko wants to call it, his, qwert, whoevers system that isn't seeded by F400 and simple bracket) or being a simple bracket seeded by F400 may determine whether someone participates. I think its silly to have clans sign up before they know what they are signing up for.

The method at very least needs to be determined ahead of time.

IcePack

its look that you dont read carefull proposed bracket schemes. Its combination of f400 for seeding, and then draw will be random.

[IcePack]

Well the problem with this is, doing a random draw (or whatever josko wants to call it, his, qwert, whoevers system that isn't seeded by F400 and simple bracket) or being a simple bracket seeded by F400 may determine whether someone participates. I think its silly to have clans sign up before they know what they are signing up for.

The method at very least needs to be determined ahead of time.

IcePack

its look that you dont read carefull proposed bracket schemes. Its combination of f400 for seeding, and then draw will be random.

I'm sorry? I have read them. All of them. The problem in pointing out is he mentioned taking sign ups and then figuring out the draw.

So it really depends which proposal moves forward. Which was my point.
It looks like you don't read and understand my carefully written response to someone else, and wasn't directed at you.

[Doc_Brown]

As a member of one of the top ranked clans, do you really think you should make the call to give yourself a bye?

I don't make CCup decisions from TOFU standpoint.

Well, then I hope you're not going to be giving byes.

IMO, the only thing that needs work is the schedule. The event shouldn't take a year unless people are dragging their feet and not creating games in a timely manner. Last year there were 33 clans. That's basically 5 rounds. 5 wars should be able to be completed by the slothiest of people within a year.

I seem to recall a comment about the byes being given at the request of AFOS and AOC. This is why I suggested early in the thread that if byes are given and there is any risk of either of those two clans slipping out of the top 4 in F400, that either more clans should be given byes, or the final standings from CC3 should be used to grant them. There have been quite a few proposals (quite a few more than the 4 Josko presented) in this thread granting various numbers of byes. Before getting into the details of the pairings and seedings, it would make sense to have a final decision needs to be made on whether byes are granted and how many clans will receive them. Based on the discussion I've seen regarding ownership, I think that decision ultimately belongs to Dako, though I got the impression at some point that the CDs might vote on such things.

However, Dako offered another draft for the tournament format that included a proposed bracket. Josko kindly pointed out a flaw in the math used to generate the bracket, but it's easily fixable. At this point, I think the options are: 1) Accept the proposed bracket with necessary revisions. 2) Modify it in some way. 3) Scrap it completely and replace it with a new version.

It sounds like Bruce and Chapcrap would prefer to replace it with a standard seeded bracket with no byes given. I gather that Josko finds it silly and considers his ideas to be far superior. I offered some refinements a couple pages back, and I would add that I recommend the 4 clans being given byes to the round 16 should be the top 4 from CC3.

Dako, how do you wish to proceed? I haven't seen Josko's list of pros and cons for the different bracket formats yet. I don't know if you wish to wait for that before making a decision, or do you wish to put it to a vote either here or in front of the CDs?

[IcePack]

Does Dako decide when there are polls, or do CD's?

[Qwert]

Well the problem with this is, doing a random draw (or whatever josko wants to call it, his, qwert, whoevers system that isn't seeded by F400 and simple bracket) or being a simple bracket seeded by F400 may determine whether someone participates. I think its silly to have clans sign up before they know what they are signing up for.

The method at very least needs to be determined ahead of time.

IcePack

its look that you dont read carefull proposed bracket schemes. Its combination of f400 for seeding, and then draw will be random.

I'm sorry? I have read them. All of them. The problem in pointing out is he mentioned taking sign ups and then figuring out the draw.

So it really depends which proposal moves forward. Which was my point.
It looks like you don't read and understand my carefully written response to someone else, and wasn't directed at you.

i see mine name in post, and its not directed to me?

As a member of one of the top ranked clans, do you really think you should make the call to give yourself a bye?

I don't make CCup decisions from TOFU standpoint.

Well, then I hope you're not going to be giving byes.

IMO, the only thing that needs work is the schedule. The event shouldn't take a year unless people are dragging their feet and not creating games in a timely manner. Last year there were 33 clans. That's basically 5 rounds. 5 wars should be able to be completed by the slothiest of people within a year.

I seem to recall a comment about the byes being given at the request of AFOS and AOC. This is why I suggested early in the thread that if byes are given and there is any risk of either of those two clans slipping out of the top 4 in F400, that either more clans should be given byes, or the final standings from CC3 should be used to grant them. There have been quite a few proposals (quite a few more than the 4 Josko presented) in this thread granting various numbers of byes. Before getting into the details of the pairings and seedings, it would make sense to have a final decision needs to be made on whether byes are granted and how many clans will receive them. Based on the discussion I've seen regarding ownership, I think that decision ultimately belongs to Dako, though I got the impression at some point that the CDs might vote on such things.

However, Dako offered another draft for the tournament format that included a proposed bracket. Josko kindly pointed out a flaw in the math used to generate the bracket, but it's easily fixable. At this point, I think the options are: 1) Accept the proposed bracket with necessary revisions. 2) Modify it in some way. 3) Scrap it completely and replace it with a new version.

It sounds like Bruce and Chapcrap would prefer to replace it with a standard seeded bracket with no byes given. I gather that Josko finds it silly and considers his ideas to be far superior. I offered some refinements a couple pages back, and I would add that I recommend the 4 clans being given byes to the round 16 should be the top 4 from CC3.

Dako, how do you wish to proceed? I haven't seen Josko's list of pros and cons for the different bracket formats yet. I don't know if you wish to wait for that before making a decision, or do you wish to put it to a vote either here or in front of the CDs?

I have some arguing with josko about formats, but read all above i find that he its right, he say that put all proposed format on vote, and then we will get what people want to play. Everybody who have bracket system to show, just display in vote:
A-format by ???
B-format by ???
C-format by ???
D-format by ???
E-format by ???
F-format by ???
----------------------------
People vote,and discusion over format are over,plain and simple

[Doc_Brown]

Does Dako decide when there are polls, or do CD's?

It sounds like the long discussion about ownership came down to the CDs simply wanted a few basic requirements but otherwise left control to Dako. On the other hand, they voted to continue allowing maps to be used twice per war, but I think I saw earlier in this thread that Dako requested a vote on that point. My guess is the same would hold true on the pairing. It's his call what to do with it, but he could submit it to the CDs for a vote if he wishes.

[Chariot of Fire]

If there are, say, 36 clans and a vote is held on whether to grant byes to the Top 4 seeds I could just imagine the result coming out 4 in favour and 32 against. Some things just shouldn't be put to a vote and this is probably one example.

[Doc_Brown]

I have some arguing with josko about formats, but read all above i find that he its right, he say that put all proposed format on vote, and then we will get what people want to play. Everybody who have bracket system to show, just display in vote:
A-format by ???
B-format by ???
C-format by ???
D-format by ???
E-format by ???
F-format by ???
----------------------------
People vote,and discusion over format are over,plain and simple

qwert,
I disagree. There are a lot of different formats that have been proposed, and a lot of them are subtle variations of each other. If you start with deciding how many clans get byes, you immediately narrow the field a finite number of proposals. If you then decide whether the seeds are determined by random draw in some form or strictly by the clan rankings, you narrow the options again. There are only a handful of people that pay enough attention to this thread to be able to follow all the arguments for the various options, and if you throw a dozen different options out, you're not likely to get a good informed response. On the other hand, if you present a couple simple decisions (byes or no byes, random draws or rankings for seeds), it will shape the final decision without all the confusion.

[Doc_Brown]

If there are, say, 36 clans and a vote is held on whether to grant byes to the Top 4 seeds I could just imagine the result coming out 4 in favour and 32 against. Some things just shouldn't be put to a vote and this is probably one example.

Fair point!

[Dako]

Dako, how do you wish to proceed? I haven't seen Josko's list of pros and cons for the different bracket formats yet. I don't know if you wish to wait for that before making a decision, or do you wish to put it to a vote either here or in front of the CDs?

I would like to wait more because so far only 5-7 people have voiced their opinion on the previous version. The CD ownership issues have yet to be resolved as well because Foxy (who asked the questions) is asleep right now (or not ;)) and USA will wake up in a couple of hours. I would like people to calm down and digest what was said here to day and yesterday. And josko still has to present his analysis on brackets proposal.

Does Dako decide when there are polls, or do CD's?

It sounds like the long discussion about ownership came down to the CDs simply wanted a few basic requirements but otherwise left control to Dako. On the other hand, they voted to continue allowing maps to be used twice per war, but I think I saw earlier in this thread that Dako requested a vote on that point. My guess is the same would hold true on the pairing. It's his call what to do with it, but he could submit it to the CDs for a vote if he wishes.

It was I who have asked for the poll inside CDF. I have not decided yet if we should vote on voting system or not and how it will be done. Not everything should be voted upon.

[Nicky15]

The CDs would rather all key points were voted on, but the decision on what goes to vote is Dakos