Letter to the Clans of CC

[freakns]

freakns, after showing your personality as being a true liar by saying "i will not vote again on any issue. not me, not any other member of Otpisani." and then after several days saying "my clan and i have voted every single time for every question thats been raised." and then saying that I accuse you without a single evidence while in fact I presented the strong evidence, I do not care to counterargument your multiple lies and flames followed in upcoming posts. Finally, when I was saying pure truth (that I will make 7-0 score in batch 3 vs TOFU) you were the one who attacked me hard for saying that true statement. Obviously, you better treat the ones who are telling lies than the ones who are telling truth, so I let be like that if that makes you happy, but I will not give attention to your liar/flaming posts anymore. I rather give attention to persons who prefer truth over lies

pure idiot.
my clan and i have voted(moj klan i ja smo glasali)
i will not vote again(necu glasati opet)
how can you not understand this?
we have voted for everything every time up until the moment they have changed the voting rules and ask us to vote again about same issue. are you really that stupid?
also, you are saying "when i was saying pure truth". how can prediction be "pure" truth? it can become truth eventually, but in the moment you have posted it was not. so i guess your problem is not only english(where you do democracy... what does do democracy means? i usually understand your idiotism, like "pure truth" you just used, because i know you are translating from serbian, but i still dont know what do democracy means), your bigger problem is concept of conversation. you are failing so hard at it

[Genoke]

Come on guys! I'm really getting tired of this bull sh*t!...

I really don't understand what the big problem is!
So much stuff to read, so much accusations, so much ideas (wether from clan or individual), so much 'i did this' and 'you said/wrote that!'... are we children or are we mature?
Nonetheless, i've seen several constructive ideas aswell.

CCup was created and most people were happy...clans joined it and enjoyed it.
few years later (some) people/clans don't like the format as it was used to be. (looks like a problem to solve)

solving: voting try out (let's get voting on the possibilities)
1. resistance on the possibilities
2. suddenly the outcome isn't good enough, so new voting without the popular result
3. keep on shooting eachother on the next proposal
4. .....
5. .....
6. .....

My thought and my idea about the whole situation!

*first voting time: i voted 2 (yep the popular number)
but then i've read josko's interpretation about CCup and indeed i like that (cup would have been made from 'easy' start to hard final, that's why the top clans would've been seeded), so i changed my vote into a 3.
*second voting time: i asked my clan about their vote, got only 3 results, so far their interests in a cup format!
*i've read a good proposal from CoF too, which i like either. Maybe they can use his input for the changes to make, or maybe we could create another cup.

question here is, do we need to make 1 perfect Cup were everybody is happy with? Answer: IMPOSSIBLE!!!
For me the TO from every cup/tourney can make their rules/seedings, as long it is mentioned before. If the TO stays the same, the format prolly will too.

My solution:
Why not keeping the original format of CCup and create another Cup too.
When having 2 Cups, the clans can choose to join them both or not.

For me, i really don't care about the format of a certain Cup. If my members don't like it, we won't join. If 2 cups are on the same time, we prolly won't join (since we've got only 13 members, sorry for that!), but maybe we do. I have to ask about that first, since i don't want to overload the scedule of our clanmembers.

So please!!!! stop this overloading on the forums and start creating a constructive conversation/cup or 2

[freakns]

Proposal for CC4

1. The Top 4 seeds are put in different quarters of the draw
2. The other 28 names will be drawn entirely randomly
3a. If a start date is desired this month the clans still playing the previous edition of the cup receive a bye (easy rule to carry forward into future editions and has nothing to do with seeding), OR
3b. If a delay of approx 3 months is acceptable, all participating clans start in Round 1 (after the previous edition of the Cup has been decided)

If your clan agrees in principle with Points 1-3 above please copy this part of the post (from below the line) and add your name to the list. I can see no reason why this isn't an acceptable format for everyone - and some clans may be very conspicuous by their absence.

1. TOFU

i think you are missing whole point of debate here.
CDs do not care about your opinion or your suggestion. there is a big chance they will not read what you have to say at all.
at least 3 times in CDF i have wrote what is wrong with 1 hour rule, receive 0 response from any of CDs, just to see the answer "since there is no reasonable explanation why 1 hour shouldnt be implemented we are staying with it". it was only when uckuki and FOED said they will not any clan competition, and many clans supported them when bruce come and change the rule to 2 hours(even though he said 1 hour is still fine but they are flexible...). you can talk and elaborate as much as you want, they dont care. and he finally answer why my explanation wasnt reasonable. because not all the clans can be happy. the fact that neither clan was happy with 1 hour rule was not that important. they even admit 1 hour rule was put into action because of some ppl who were stepping over. and it was put in action just before TOFU vs KORT war. so basically, they created a rule for you and josko(even thought they have never said it out loud, it was a rule created because of you two), and then said "too bad if some clans cant handle it"...
this is how CCup4 format voting went:
a) we were given 3 options. option 1 all seeded. option 2 all random. option 3 josko suggestion.
voting went close to 50% for random, 40% for seeded, 10% for josko suggestion. CDs have voted for josko suggestion. actually Lee voted for option 1, but after bruce posted he votes for option 3, Lee changed his voice to 3.(in this case, it is democratic. if someone however change his voice to their unliking, it is antidemocratic)
if it was up to rules of voting, we would have second round of voting to chose between options 1 and 2.
b) since CDs have lost their option in first round, they have changed rules of voting. now we got two options to vote for. option 1 seeded and option 2 random. but simple majority(50%+1) was not enough this time. they have installed addition to voting. if any of two options fails to get 75% of votes, we will proceed with option 3, ie josko suggestion.
clans were pissed. all of us, every single clan that had something to say about this was furious. so some changed their vote, just to have that elusive 75% and not let CDs to have it their way.
c) when bruce saw that random option can actually go over 75%, he stopped the voting for second time, and declared that changing vote is antidemocratic, so he has left with no other option but to install option which is not perfect, but is closest to what everyone who wanted random want, and what everyone who wanted seeding want. strangely, it is the option he and other CDs have voted for...

and just to be clear, i have no problem with this format. i actually voted for it in first round of voting! i have no problem with other 2 formats too. i dont like those, but if clan world has voted for them, i would respect decision thats been made.
however, i have huge problem with the way how this format was brought to us. i have problems with the way CDs are running things. they can run it autocratic, if thats the way they want to do things, no problems with that. but they cant running voting system, ask that we participate, call it democratic as long as majority agrees with them, and then as soon as their wish doesnt have majority, call ppl backstabbers and antidemocrats, and install their option because that is the only way to preserve fairness. with that i do have huge fucking problem!!!

[eddie2]

Come on guys! I'm really getting tired of this bull sh*t!...

I really don't understand what the big problem is!
So much stuff to read, so much accusations, so much ideas (wether from clan or individual), so much 'i did this' and 'you said/wrote that!'... are we children or are we mature?
Nonetheless, i've seen several constructive ideas aswell.

CCup was created and most people were happy...clans joined it and enjoyed it.
few years later (some) people/clans don't like the format as it was used to be. (looks like a problem to solve)

solving: voting try out (let's get voting on the possibilities)
1. resistance on the possibilities
2. suddenly the outcome isn't good enough, so new voting without the popular result
3. keep on shooting eachother on the next proposal
4. .....
5. .....
6. .....

My thought and my idea about the whole situation!

*first voting time: i voted 2 (yep the popular number)
but then i've read josko's interpretation about CCup and indeed i like that (cup would have been made from 'easy' start to hard final, that's why the top clans would've been seeded), so i changed my vote into a 3.
*second voting time: i asked my clan about their vote, got only 3 results, so far their interests in a cup format!
*i've read a good proposal from CoF too, which i like either. Maybe they can use his input for the changes to make, or maybe we could create another cup.

question here is, do we need to make 1 perfect Cup were everybody is happy with? Answer: IMPOSSIBLE!!!
For me the TO from every cup/tourney can make their rules/seedings, as long it is mentioned before. If the TO stays the same, the format prolly will too.

My solution:
Why not keeping the original format of CCup and create another Cup too.
When having 2 Cups, the clans can choose to join them both or not.

For me, i really don't care about the format of a certain Cup. If my members don't like it, we won't join. If 2 cups are on the same time, we prolly won't join (since we've got only 13 members, sorry for that!), but maybe we do. I have to ask about that first, since i don't want to overload the scedule of our clanmembers.

So please!!!! stop this overloading on the forums and start creating a constructive conversation/cup or 2

genoke so we go with what you say then once again..

you will not be allowed entry to this event nor vvv nor aoc/empire... because chuuck did not give any form of leeway on his 2 complete wars and eligible to join cla... this tourney was set up that you must of completed 1 war and be a member of cdf which your clan did not meet or the other 2... So what did they do they bent the rules which several clans have fallen victim to before. So they have shown us that rules are there for them to pick and choose who to use them against. me as well i am not against the format if i dont like it i dont join it. but organizers like this make it nearly impossible to sign up to because you do not know what rules will be followed and what not.

[Chariot of Fire]

>freakns.....If what you've said is fact (and I have no reason to doubt your words) then for sure it is completely ridiculous. It's the kind of thing I'd expect to read about Robert Mugabe, not a bunch of like-minded people trying to organize a friendly competition. I had already lost a lot of faith, hence my post which was trying to get something moving, but now the whole things smacks of cronyism.

I'll be very interested to see what the answer is to my #1 posted in the CC4 Questions thread now that KORT are no longer having to play a 60 game CC3 challenge vs AOC.

[Qwert]

small change to freak post

>>a) we were given 3 options. option 1 all seeded. option 2 all random. option 3 qwert/josko suggestion.(3a qwert-3b josko)<<

[Leehar]

Ok, just to input some salient features.

Firstly, there are 6 CD's. 3 may be from 'elitist' clans that can be accused of all sorts of heinous (inner circle) acts, but the other 3 come from PR/OSA & Legion, & so saying there is a CD Option that we are all supporting is a bit of a fallacy...
Similarly, I don't think any of us decide our clans votes either. Arya/Nicky don't vote in CD&F for their clans, while Kort is rarely only about Bruce.

Secondly, all that was changed to the run-off poll was the hurdle rate that we hoped would prevent any option from alienating 30+% of clans, yet still favour whichever way the simple majority preferred. (Option 3 - Josko/qwert however wasn't included; there was an Option 1b that was always prevalent, and an Option 2b that we hadn't included previously because we had underestimated support for Random so we needed to provide them that balance as well - and accepted our error in that regard)
People favouring option 1 thought we were against them (since they assumed Option 1 & prior Option 3 winners would give them the majority), while people favouring option 2 thought we were having an elitist mindset.


Lastly, we discussed with Admins how to resolve this issue since it's obviously still very contentious; they thought that it's obvious people have become very polarised, and so rds indicated we should go forward with half-seeding to allow the Format to remain representative without isolating blocs

[crispybits]

How is seeding every single match half seeding? Who does it benefit to have seeding in every match?

And why are rules being changed when they go against some clans, when these rules were fixed previously? Who is benefitting from this "we'll change them now" approach?

[josko.ri]

small change to freak post

>>a) we were given 3 options. option 1 all seeded. option 2 all random. option 3 qwert/josko suggestion.(3a qwert-3b josko)<<

Yup. I may be vocal but that was more qwert's suggestion. I mean, 3.a (qwert's) had much more support than 3.b (my) in public discussions.

[crispybits]

Sorry for the double post, but I got a PM saying someone didn't understand my points so I'll expand on them (and I'd prefer to keep the conversation public if you don't mind PM sender)

From wikipedia page on seeding:

Players/teams are 'planted' into the bracket in a manner that is typically intended so that the best do not meet until later in the competition.

Now, to 'plant' the brackets so that the exact same outcome is achieved is not "semi-seeding", it's just "seeding". To give the lower half of the draw a randomly variable shitty end of the stick still gives them the shitty end of the stick. To have it applied to every single match in the first round proper is not a compromise. See the example I gave about names beginning with S and A if you still really don't get it.

Put eight people in a room:

1 - Steve
2 - Simon
3 - Suzie
4 - Sian
5 - Adam
6 - Anthony
7 - Amy
8 - Anne

And have 8 amounts of money

$1, $2, $3, $4, $100, $200, $300, $400

Previously, anyone with a name beginning with S could only get 1, 2, 3 or 4 assigned in list order. Anyone with a name beginning with A could only get 100, 200, 300 or 400 assigned in list order.

Some people complained, they said that because the S names couldnt possibly draw the high dollar amounts the system was unfair, and that everyone should have the chance to draw any amount. So the organisers went away and thought about this criticism for a long time, and then came back and said that they understood and thought they had come up with a system that everyone could be happy with.

Now the A names still get the 100, 200, 300 and 400 in list order, but to fix everything the S names were randomised as to which would recive which sub-$5 amount!

And everyone was happy! Or not....

Every time one of the CDs calls this a compromise or similar it is a lie, maybe not an intentional one, maybe they just don't understand, but a lie nonetheless. And if it is unintentional, if they really don't understand something this simple, then why should we trust them to be competent to run anything, let alone the clan community?

So again, how is seeding every single match half seeding? Who does it benefit to have seeding in every match?

As for the second question:

Just going to point out that when KOA started (with some in clan having past clan experience) we missed CC2 start and had to wait until CC3....

1) time changed to aka were not allowed entry to ccup3.... admittedly we did not try to sign up because we had not completed our first war via the pack...
2) the pack were not allowed to join ccup3 due to 6 active games for there 2nd war and did not meet the requirements.

So, we're breaking the rules for Atlantis and the Empire/AOC merger and allowing them in, even though they don't qualify?

So, Atlantis can be in too now?

Does that mean that clans do not have to qualify for CDF or that CDF does not require wars anymore? Just curious which rules have changed.

There was at least one more post (I think by freakns) that gave clear examples of previous decisions in both CC1 and CC3 to exclude clans because they were simply "too new", but I can't find it right now.

So again, why are rules being changed when they go against some clans, when these rules were fixed previously? Who is benefitting from this "we'll change them now" approach?

[Keefie]

Lastly, we discussed with Admins how to resolve this issue since it's obviously still very contentious; they thought that it's obvious people have become very polarised, and so rds indicated we should go forward with half-seeding to allow the Format to remain representative without isolating blocs

Don't you and the CD's see that we've just ended up with virtually the same as before. Half the number of seeds would have been acceptable ie: 8

Having half the field seeded is way too many and just plain wrong

There is still a LARGE isolated bloc mate - FACT.

[freakns]

>freakns.....If what you've said is fact (and I have no reason to doubt your words) then for sure it is completely ridiculous. It's the kind of thing I'd expect to read about Robert Mugabe, not a bunch of like-minded people trying to organize a friendly competition. I had already lost a lot of faith, hence my post which was trying to get something moving, but now the whole things smacks of cronyism.

I'll be very interested to see what the answer is to my #1 posted in the CC4 Questions thread now that KORT are no longer having to play a 60 game CC3 challenge vs AOC.

that is how the vote went. if you have any doubt, here is proof:

As detailed in the public thread we would now like you to vote on the format that CC4 will take. You have 5 days to register your vote.

Given the importance of this particular vote we will use a run off system.

Everyone votes for their first choice option, 1,2 or 3. You do not need to distinguish between 1a/1b or 3a/3b.

When the vote is complete we will total up the votes, if any option takes 50% of the vote it's declared the outright winner.

If not we will remove the option that polled the least votes and then everyone will immediately vote again on the remaining 2 options.

now, i can not quote second voting thread, so ill just copy it:
[spoiler]Run off vote:

We have noted all the feedback on the cup format and as we proceed with the run off vote we have made a small change that we hope will take us closer to a middle ground on what is clearly a divisive issue.

You have 48 hours to make your choice. Please vote 1 or 2, you should not distinguish between a and b


If either option takes more than 75% of the total vote then it is declared the outright winner and we proceed with 1a or 2a.

If Option 1 wins but takes less than 75% of the total vote then we will proceed with option 1 b which does introduce a significant random element purely to round 1.

If Option 2 wins but takes less than 75% of the total vote then we will proceed with option 2 b which introduces a significant seeded element purely to round 1.



In all cases we are assuming a play in round to get us down to 32 clans. All seeding will be taken from the F400 at the agreed start point.

If more than 32 clans do enter, then we can review the chosen option to see if a play in round was the most appropriate or if the system can be modified to cope with a different number.


1.Seeded bracket system


Option 1a uses a strict seeding method for the entire bracket to pair the clans.
Option 1b uses seeding for the top half of the bracket to pair the clans with a randomly drawn opponent.


show: Option 1a - Seed the entire bracket




show: Option 1b - Seed the top 16 to play random opponents in round 1




2. An entirely random draw for every round.

Option 2a - Full random for every round
Option 2b - The top 8 seeded clans are kept apart in round 1. The other x clans are paired randomly. All remaining rounds will see the clans paired randomly.[/spoiler]

as for last part, you saw in bruce letter that its clans fault for being backstabbing, changing their votes, dont respect democracy, etcetc...

now, were they ever wanted to have fair voting, i dont know, but it surely doesnt look like that.

also, i can not stand when people do not take responsibility for their actions. and looks to me bruce have no intention of taking responsibility for his actions. he was calling out for democracy, i asked him to run candidate system for choosing CDs and head CD, looks like he doesn like that much democracy. voting has failed not once, but twice, and fingers are pointed towards clans, not CDs. CD has offended clan representative, and bruce has remain silent about that outrageous act(maybe he gave him no no speech on bed pillow, not sure, wasnt there...) although other CD has explained how he is actually splendid guy, pure sweetheart, but he just accidentally lost it for second, so no biggy...



also, let me make my self clear. personally, i have nothing against any of CDs. but they are showing, one day after another, that they are incapable of running things. this same cup has been place where all the clans gather for 3 years, all up until the moment CDs have hijacked it and in that every instance, shit has hit the fan... if that alone is not proof of incapability, i dont know what is


ps. my apologies to qwert. 3rd option was his/josko idea, not josko solo idea

[crispybits]

Firstly, there are 6 CD's. 3 may be from 'elitist' clans that can be accused of all sorts of heinous (inner circle) acts, but the other 3 come from PR/OSA & Legion, & so saying there is a CD Option that we are all supporting is a bit of a fallacy...
Similarly, I don't think any of us decide our clans votes either. Arya/Nicky don't vote in CD&F for their clans, while Kort is rarely only about Bruce.

Sorry if you feel like you're being picked on here Leehar, and credit to you for at least making efforts to build bridges. This is not about you personally, but the actions of the CD group as a whole.

Bruceswar - KORT - (1)
Jetsetwilly - AOC - (Top 10)
Leehar - EMP - (Top 10)
Nicky15 - OSA - (9)
Arya - PIG - (11)
Chemefreak - LEG - (27)

Seems like 5 out of 6 of the clans the CDs were in at the start of the voting (before you all muddied the waters even further with this merger) are all in the block that would be seeded.

Also., having looked at the first vote, 3 of the 6 CD clans voted for option 1 (one changed to 3 before the deadline), 2 voted for option 3, and only 1 for option 2. So your clans got the closest option to the one they wanted despite the majority vote (even removing contentious votes that had changed to polar opposites) was going for a different option. Was there by any chance a vote amongst the CDs to decide the final format? Do you think it's right that a group so heavily in favour of the less popular option should decide to go for the less popular option against the wishes of the community in general?

[chapcrap]

So, crispy, Keefie, whoever,

You would be ok with the format if say only 8 or 10 were seeded? I just ask because it seems to me that if you wanted to war against someone with a similar rank, you could just go do that. If you want to win the cup, you're probably going to be facing at least 3 top 16 seeds anyway. What's the issue with facing one in the first round?

Personally, I don't have a problem with the format as is. I don't care if it's only 4 or 8 or 10 that are seeded. I really don't care if any are seeded, but to me, that is more unfair than seeding the top 16.

[crispybits]

Personaly speaking, the ideal solution seems to me to have no seeding, but still balance the brackets so that nobody gets an easy ride to the final. That way we treat all clans totally equally, but the structure still gets progressively harder in each round, nobody gets an easy draw because you will likely have 2 top 8 clans within your quarter of the bracket (and if not 2 top 8 definitely 2 top 10) and the schedule is set from the start so we don't need to wait for each round to finish before the next round can be drawn. Apart from the "tradition" argument (which is a logical fallacy) that structure meets every criticism raised about both option 1 (elitism) and option 2 (balance/scheduling).

It has the new criticism of complexity, but then how many people actually take the time to understand exactly how the F400 maths works? A minority that do understand and keep an eye on things to make sure it's all run properly is enough, not everyone in the clan world needs to know the fine details. It would be the same here.

I'd be prepared to compromise instantly on 4 seeds and keep the brackets too, at a stretch maybe 8 if someone can give me a reason why any clan should have an advantage from other competitions carried over into this competition, but if the brackets are still balanced then effectively you'll get something damn close either way with those 2 as with unseeded - I don't think 8 seeds and random draws in every round would work, as it wouldn't meet the criticisms of either option 1 or option 2.

Edit - quick question back for you chap - how often do you see seeded tournament structures in that side of the forums? I just had a look at the top 20 tournaments in the list looking for players, and 13 are totally random, with a further 5 not specified so we have to assume they are random too as they havent laid out any seeding rules. The remaining 2 are where the players that enter choose which group to go into. There are no examples in these top 20 threads in the list that use any kind of seeding. If not having seeding was unfair, wouldn't 18 of those 20 be disallowed by the rules around creating tournaments?

[chapcrap]

I did see that version you posted and I think it had merit, but I'm not sure that the minor complexity of it is really worth it...

I think that the seeding is a non-issue for most because that's how it's been done in the past and it's worked. Not only that, that's what everyone has been expecting up until about a month ago. So, everyone had a fair opportunity to get where they wanted to be or where they could be by now. We started last summer and made it to the top ten.

Also, did you see my post about when I was in KOA and was really excited about this event simply because we would get the opportunity to have a war that we normally wouldn't get against a higher ranked clan? Am I the only one who feels that way?

[crispybits]

Nope - I'd be excited about warring with KORT or TOFU or someone like that if it happened from a random draw, but I don't think I should be told that I have to take on that huge disadvantage when other clans are guaranteed to face clans easier than them just because they have done well in other separate competitions. If, say, LOW or RET are guaranteed an easier draw than me, I would ask why, in the context of CCup, should all independent wars and other competitions be taken into account for this draw? If it was done on previous CCup performance then this would get around that to some extent, but as this is a new competition for this year I still wouldn't see a compelling argument why it MUST be this way, and good reasons why it shouldn't.

The complexity of that idea took all of 5 minutes for me to make and balance a draw. It's not like I'm adding days and days on with a supercomputer fine tuning. 5 minutes with a pen and a piece of paper is all you need to do it. It took longer to type it all out than it did to calculate it. It's not complex at all, it's just new so people aren't used to it. Is there any other suggestion that can be said to have defeated the criticisms of both option 1 and option 2 in full?

Like I said the tradition argument is an established logical fallacy. Just because something has been done in one way before, doesn't make that the best way to do it, and is not an argument for continuing to do it that way. The best way to find the best way to do something is to take all the options, find all the things wrong with those options you can from all sides, then modify those options or come up with new ones, and keeping rinsing and repeating until you get to a final product with the smallest possible number and effect of flaws.

Also, please check back as I added an edit to my first response but I think I did it too late for you to see it.

[Vid_FISO]

Also, did you see my post about when I was in KOA and was really excited about this event simply because we would get the opportunity to have a war that we normally wouldn't get against a higher ranked clan? Am I the only one who feels that way?

Given the criticism we received for taking on OSA, you may well be

[Leehar]

Lastly, we discussed with Admins how to resolve this issue since it's obviously still very contentious; they thought that it's obvious people have become very polarised, and so rds indicated we should go forward with half-seeding to allow the Format to remain representative without isolating blocs

Don't you and the CD's see that we've just ended up with virtually the same as before. Half the number of seeds would have been acceptable ie: 8

Having half the field seeded is way too many and just plain wrong

There is still a LARGE isolated bloc mate - FACT.

Again, I don't want to get into that discussion, and I feel that any response I give will be attacked from somewhere, so I'm at the point where I feel I can do precious little other than give cop-outs.

But yes, rds indicated that 8/32 seemed too small, so half was better, and since it seemed we'd be executed at the altar of public perception anyway, we didn't bother advocating against it too heavily (plus we don't really don't have that much demand on admins time, so that seemed a simple enough resolution to the 3 hour update we could give him). I personally just thought it's best to move on with it, since after the exams I wrote, I was disillusioned enough that fighting over the CCup format didn't seem to have as much importance.

I honestly believed that the run-off with the 75% could have been the best way to resolve the situation and leave with an acceptable middle-ground if people had such contrasting opinions, since while there were many compromise options being flouted, it still seemed impossible to have people reach that location without having it in-built into their responses according to how overall the vote went.

However, with the way that idea was slammed, it seemed we drifted even further from the sight of the oasis, so we let rds make the call.

With regards to the other question.
"So again, why are rules being changed when they go against some clans, when these rules were fixed previously? Who is benefiting from this "we'll change them now" approach?"
I'll cop out again, and say that was chuck's decision in the previous cups. I think the CD's took a progressive stance in taking cognizance of the spirit of the rule rather it's form with allowing VVV & Atlantis to participate in the CD&F but if you believe they made the wrong decision you can campaign against it in CD&F.


Also, you don't need to protect my name, Crispy or Freak
I pm'd you because I felt it was easier for me to convey information relevant to your particular grievances rather than in a public domain where I could be picked apart by other parties and lose my job to boot.

To Freaks comment, I reiterate that being in these boots doesn't give the anonymity other positions provide, and while we often can take the heat, sometimes we do succumb to the pressure enough to lash out. I'm sure it is regretted, but I have no compunction in saying that sometimes similar thoughts cross my mind to respond with the vitriol that is often thrown our way when we truly are trying our best to protect the interests of clans as a whole. And while you may want us to credit you with giving away CD positions en masse, I can't give credence to that as a feasible option

For Crispy, As always, while I can sometimes follow your train of thought, the issue with brackets/byes etc beyond the simple seedings does go beyond me. And I'm also concerned that your viewpoint is not always representative of the Option 2's you sometimes speak on behalf of. So I have sometimes just wanted to see if you do get the support from that camp to show that as a viable option before I can work on supporting that as something we can implement. (While you may support some balance, I'm not sure others will)

With regards to the composition of the CD team, I guess I really can't address it beyond having the requisite experience and knowledge of the clan world. Inevitably perhaps that results in an increase in stature & competitiveness for their clan as well.
I'd hazard that it's similar to asking why TD's have TO's with so many Tournaments run etc.

We didn't vote for this final format, but yes, we did vote for how to best organise a run-off when it had such polarised opinions, but I'm still unsure how you can use it to accuse us of bias since apparently all sides were still up in arms about it.

Edit: I've pretty much spent 2 hours drafting this, so I really need a new hobby! let me digest my dinner before crucifixion!

[chapcrap]

First, I know that your idea was not that complex. I was saying that it was probably not ostensibly different enough to have people want to do the extra work. Like I said, it has merit. Maybe it's not understood by everyone...

Edit - quick question back for you chap - how often do you see seeded tournament structures in that side of the forums? I just had a look at the top 20 tournaments in the list looking for players, and 13 are totally random, with a further 5 not specified so we have to assume they are random too as they havent laid out any seeding rules. The remaining 2 are where the players that enter choose which group to go into. There are no examples in these top 20 threads in the list that use any kind of seeding. If not having seeding was unfair, wouldn't 18 of those 20 be disallowed by the rules around creating tournaments?

About this, yeah, there are quite a few that are seeded. Off the top of my head, MoB Deadly has a whole series of tournaments that are seeded based on points gained on a specific map. Here's the problem with comparing clans and tournaments like this, clans basically compete in the same competition styles all year round. There is an easy (not to figure out, just to understand) ranking system. It fits with all clans. If you take a tournament and try to seed people based on the tournament criteria, it doesn't always work that well, because individuals play all different kinds of games. There are instances where it does work well, like MoB's tournaments. One of the biggest issues with seeding is that players' points can fluctuate so much. Especially those of us who frequent a lot of tournaments or medal hunt.

Additionally, running a random tournament is a lot easier than seeding for TOs. So, there's that.

With regards to the composition of the CD team, I guess I really can't address it beyond having the requisite experience and knowledge of the clan world. Inevitably perhaps that results in an increase in stature & competitiveness for their clan as well.
I'd hazard that it's similar to asking why TD's have TO's with so many Tournaments run etc.

That's not unfair. Although, Lindax put it aptly, I'm not sure that the TD's have an investment in tournaments ran as much as the CD's do in the clan events. However, I don't see a way to avoid that. I wouldn't want someone from the outside to be running clan things.

[crispybits]

For the record, I never claimed to speak on behalf of anyone other than myself (except where explicitly doing so only for my clan while voting in CDF) - my opinions are mine and mine alone. If they get other support great, if they don't then I'll accept that too. My balanced unseeded option was never put up for vote, so just like you got surprised by the support for random, it's entirely possibly you could be surprised by balanced. Either way, I have yet to see someone come up with a structural criticism of the format beyond "it looks complicated", and as I mentioned to chap doing that sample draw took less time than typing it all out afterwards, and I'm not a particularly slow typist. Meanwhile, that format gets around criticisms both of elitism and of balance and scheduling. I have not seen any other format suggestion that does that.

First, I know that your idea was not that complex. I was saying that it was probably not ostensibly different enough to have people want to do the extra work. Like I said, it has merit. Maybe it's not understood by everyone...

So for a tournament that will be one of the big 2 tournaments in the clan world, and will run for a year or more, 5 minutes at the start of the thing to do a marginally more complex draw is "not worth it"?

I take your point on tournaments btw. I still would state that the majority of tournaments being totally unseeded would mean that unseeded competitions are not inherently unfair just because they are unseeded.

[Chewie1]

Also, did you see my post about when I was in KOA and was really excited about this event simply because we would get the opportunity to have a war that we normally wouldn't get against a higher ranked clan? Am I the only one who feels that way?

I kinda agree with you here chap... but you can still get that with a total random draw.

[freakns]

OK, since i got couple of reinsurance from CDs directly that they do try to get everyone happy, and that situation just got out of hands and turned out strangely like they have trying to get everything their way, i have to ask couple of question.

although we are pass the point where we can agree and everyone will be happy, we all need to make some compromise.
so, first question:
1- are we past the point where we can change format? it is obvious most of the clans arent happy with 16 clans seeding. some wants more, some wants less. combine little of CoF and little of Josko and little of qwert and see where we are heading... im pretty sure every clan would agree to some sort of compromise, if talked nicely.

2- most of us dont have any more belief in CDs. not that we thing you would rigid the cup, we just feel you wouldnt do the right thing. so i suggest let the ppl who know how to handle things, do just that. Dako was leading CCup3 after Chuck left. Icepack is doing quite nice job with F400. take one more representative who is eager to have all random(crispy or keefie or viperlord maybe) and let 3 of them run the Cup. they all are respectable members, and if they come up with solution, and then run the competition, im pretty sure everyone would be OK with it(ofc there is always a question would they agree to do that, but i hope they would). CD can supervise that all ofc, but running would be left to three of them. now, are CDs ready to do that?

3- if everyone agrees, there will be no more public debate about this, 3 representative would talk with clans over PMs and got their decision within a week. we would then have 2 weeks for sign ups, and we could start the competition somewhere around may 1st.


if CDs arent ready to compromise, and are locked to run the competition with format that doesnt satisfy anyone, then please lock this thread so clans wouldnt spill bad blood over something that noone is interested in. we might be over the point of no return, but if something can be salvage, lets try and save it

[eddie2]

also remove the demand of must be a cdf member...at the end of it you only want people there who cares about the politics side and since they demanded clans be members then you have got people there who dont want to be there, you have people there who by what clan mods have said were swayed on there vote (dont know if this is true or not.) but people who really care about what they are signing up for or what they want out of the votes would not be swayed in any way they would vote for what they want.

[Denise]

It would be nice if we could get past the garbage and have a friendly & fun competition. I agree that the CD's have made mistakes (mildly stated). However, let's keep in mind that they are volunteers trying to serve us (the clan world) and they doing the best they can. They are not here to bring evil into the CC universe and they are not trying to ruin our lives. They are simply trying to move forward in what has become a very difficult situation. I am hopeful they have learned some things that will prevent something like this happening again. I have grievances against the CD's in how they have handled this entire tournament but if I express any of them, it will be only be to address things that can still be changed. In other words, let's move on, please!

I honestly don't care about how the draw is made. I understand both sides, truly. For me the enjoyment is in the game and I enjoy playing good players as opponents, so playing a good clan from the very first round of the tournament sits fine with me. A middle ground has been reached. It's not ideal for everyone or maybe not for most lol, but it is closer to what the lower clans wanted than it was last year. I think we have no choice but to move forward with it. Let's not fight about it anymore. The same arguments are being rehashed. It's no wonder so many posts get ignored. How would any of us deal otherwise in a similar situation?

To the CD's:
I very much appreciate Leehar and jetwetwilly's recent posts which offer both transparency to your decisions and apologizes for mistakes that were made. I think this will (or at least it should) help more than anything else to get us back on track. This is good damage control and I wish you (the CD's) would have used more of it. For example, a similar courtesy extended by Bruce to Dako in the beginning of this mess would have lessened resentment in some players. When you saw the resentment your actions caused, you should have done some damage control by offering an apology for not sending him a personal PM about the situation. Ignoring your obvious mistakes like they didn't happen only infuriates the players.

I would like to express disappointment that you felt you had to go to the admin to take control of the cup and then to come up with a compromised bracket. Do you really feel rds has more wisdom than you do, as CD's, to know what is best for the clans? Is 16 seeded clans what the wisdom of admin came up with? Couldn't you handle that? If you insist on being at the helm, you should be able to make decisions.