F400 Clan Ranking - Needs Repair

[josko.ri]

I agree with most (?) people here that it seems like the higher clan (at least I assume that's what the parties would choose) should just take on the new members and the other clan is dissolved.

This is wrong way. At first, giving them points of higher clan is causing imbalance in F400 system, where it is supposed that average points of all clans is 1000. At second, it is at big favor to those clans, because half of them are worth 1239 and other half are worth 1315 and now we conclude that all are worth 1315.

What I suggest?

Right now EMP has weight 385 games and rank 1239, while AoC has weight 408 and rank 1315. So their total weight is 793, and rank can be calculated easy by mathematical equation.

New rank = [1239*(385/793)+1315*(408/793)]=1278. The most fair way, and includes averaged performance of both clans together with average weight of both clans. So on this way, it can be calculated their finishing rank after all their matches finish (AoC semis CC4, 3 sets in CL5, and EMPvsFALL), and the result can be starting rank for the new clan. So only difference would then be that starting result for the new clan is not 1000 but is some number which will be gotten as result of this equation.

Not exactly the same, but similar. To repeat myself...

My idea for F400 was just adding the 2 current scores together, and dividing them by 2. Therefore, the weightings etc of past results also get included in the combined results as a factor, while it continues on counting for other clans.

Unfortunately this isn't practical / possible.

When you enter new clan into database, you award them starting points of 1000. So the only difference you need to do is write some other number instead of 1000 and the system will work by itself without extra work from your side. How is it not practically possible?

[IcePack]

I agree with most (?) people here that it seems like the higher clan (at least I assume that's what the parties would choose) should just take on the new members and the other clan is dissolved.

This is wrong way. At first, giving them points of higher clan is causing imbalance in F400 system, where it is supposed that average points of all clans is 1000. At second, it is at big favor to those clans, because half of them are worth 1239 and other half are worth 1315 and now we conclude that all are worth 1315.

What I suggest?

Right now EMP has weight 385 games and rank 1239, while AoC has weight 408 and rank 1315. So their total weight is 793, and rank can be calculated easy by mathematical equation.

New rank = [1239*(385/793)+1315*(408/793)]=1278. The most fair way, and includes averaged performance of both clans together with average weight of both clans. So on this way, it can be calculated their finishing rank after all their matches finish (AoC semis CC4, 3 sets in CL5, and EMPvsFALL), and the result can be starting rank for the new clan. So only difference would then be that starting result for the new clan is not 1000 but is some number which will be gotten as result of this equation.

Not exactly the same, but similar. To repeat myself...

My idea for F400 was just adding the 2 current scores together, and dividing them by 2. Therefore, the weightings etc of past results also get included in the combined results as a factor, while it continues on counting for other clans.

Unfortunately this isn't practical / possible.

When you enter new clan into database, you award them starting points of 1000. So the only difference you need to do is write some other number instead of 1000 and the system will work by itself without extra work from your side. How is it not practically possible?

Thats not how it works unfortunately. Hence, its not practical.

[Chariot of Fire]

Not practical/possible according to IcePack (if you read his earlier comments).

If Man Utd acquired Arsenal would Man Utd be weaker? No. So what's the difference here?

It's logical for the standing of the stronger of the two clans to remain. They now have onboard an extra handful of players who are experts on AoR (for example) which they didn't have before, yet they're now supposed to be weaker? Nonsense!

[josko.ri]

If Man Utd acquired Arsenal would Man Utd be weaker? No. So what's the difference here?

In average all clans in F400 including retired clans have average rank 1000 because when someoe gain a point someone other loses it that is how this system works. Lets follow your logic and say all clans decide to merge with KORT into one huge clan. Do you say that now all clans together are worth at least 1393 and not anymore 1000? You see how your logic fails, from fact that average quality of clan players are worth 1000 we cone to fact that zhey suddenly very increased their skill by merging with KORT. Manutd and arsenal example fails because size of available players in case of their merging would be double but in the field is still chance for only 11 persons so choice for those 11 would be wider and therefore quality will be the same ir higher. In EMPAOC case is different story, they doubled size but also doubled positions on board. If before 15 players were played clan war for EMP and 20 players played clan war fir AOC, now 35 players will play for new clan, so strength is averaged of those 35, so averaged of those (15+20)/2.

[chapcrap]

If Man Utd acquired Arsenal would Man Utd be weaker? No. So what's the difference here?

In average all clans in F400 including retired clans have average rank 1000 because when someoe gain a point someone other loses it that is how this system works. Lets follow your logic and say all clans decide to merge with KORT into one huge clan. Do you say that now all clans together are worth at least 1393 and not anymore 1000? You see how your logic fails, from fact that average quality of clan players are worth 1000 we cone to fact that zhey suddenly very increased their skill by merging with KORT. Manutd and arsenal example fails because size of available players in case of their merging would be double but in the field is still chance for only 11 persons so choice for those 11 would be wider and therefore quality will be the same ir higher. In EMPAOC case is different story, they doubled size but also doubled positions on board. If before 15 players were played clan war for EMP and 20 players played clan war fir AOC, now 35 players will play for new clan, so strength is averaged of those 35, so averaged of those (15+20)/2.

So, every time a player switches clans, we need to reevaluate the clan's rank? I don't think that's a good idea or practical. It seems to me, like you are the one with the failed logic.

If they retain AOC rank, then Empire retires and the clan average is 1000. If you have them be a new clan, starting at some kind of average of the two, the clan average is no longer 1000. If you start them as a new clan at 1000, then that's not fair to whoever they face. It's like ahunda all of a suddent having 1000 points and playing people. Essentially, you can say that AOC just got some new players. No rank change. No point change. Just like every other time a clan acquires a new member.

[cooldeals]

Just like to take a minute to say I think Icepack you are doing a good job trying to resolve this for everyone and listen to their comments.

I think it's important to realize that this is a ranking SYSTEM. We all know that this new Empire of Chaos clan is not going to be weak, but messing with the way the F400 is calculated for one clan messes with it's integrity. The most advanced ranking systems I know of are sports ranking systems such as for collegiate teams. What they have learned is to have more than 1 type of ranking system to balance it out. They have computer systems, voting systems etc. When you average you get a better result that helps negate the weaknesses of each system.

For those who are saying we know this new clan will be great despite their decision to wipe out their history and start fresh (causing problems for their F400) I'd like to point out that this new coaches poll will almost certainly rank them in the top 7. It's a great addition to the ranking system as if you have more than 1 ranking system your average helps with the outliers like this clan.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 8&t=187767 Coaches Poll

[Chariot of Fire]

No-one uses the coaches poll for anything though. In fact I was asked to rank all the clans 1-25, I did so in collaboration with my clanmates, yet nothing ever came of it. It seems it was a waste of time. We all rely on the F400 - it's a good system and Ice does a great job. Where its integrity fails is when a clan is ranked on it where they don't belong.

And chap is right. Josko just doesn't get it. You don't average out the players' ability, you say "Right, we've got our experts for X, Y & Z maps and now we also have experts for A, B & C maps" so of course they have the luxury of fielding their strongest teams for every game.

[benga]

WAR-ID 3-9 2013-04-05

HH-PIG 4-8 2013-04-05

LOW - WAR 9-3 2013-04-02

OSA-HH 9-3 2013-03-24

RET-TFFS 9-3 2013-03-29

SOH-FALL 2-10 2013-03-28

MB-DYN 5-7 2013-04-04

OSA-TOFU 7-5 2013-04-05

MD-WAR 5-7 2013-03-28

RET-HH 7-5 2013-03-29

SOH-FOED 5-7 2013-04-03

FALL-TFFS 6-6 2013-04-03

WAR-OSA[/url] 6-6 2013-04-05

[cooldeals]

No-one uses the coaches poll for anything though.

The coaches poll is 1 month old. Of course no one uses it. But it is a GREAT idea to allow the members of CDF to create such a poll. Once it is more established and trusted think of all the ways it could be used. This is just brainstorming so no one quote this and say that one idea is so stupid!

- A new competition where coaches poll is used for seeding rather than F400
- Using an average of F400 and Coaches Poll for seeding
- Create a rule such as "If a clan is ranked in the top 10 in the coaches poll but is ranked at least 10 spots lower in the F400 the Organizer may raise their seed to within 5 spots of their coaches poll rank"

The intent of my post is that you can use this poll to balance out any quirks you don't like about the F400 especially with new/merged clans. And you can do this by creating a system of rules that won't require a bunch of unexpected special exceptions after the fact.

This post is more about the fact that people should consider future options with the Coaches Poll than any of the other stuff that's being talked about right now.

[Chariot of Fire]

The coaches poll is 1 month old

Where? I've never seen it.

[chapcrap]

The coaches poll is 1 month old

Where? I've never seen it.

Are you for real?

If you are: https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... 8&t=187767

[eddie2]

why is this even been talked about please....

aoc and empire have 1 simple choice merge (merge from what i understand is when 1 thing merges into another thing) clans like what they are trying to say they are doing

so either aoc merge into empire or empire merge into aoc then they take the ranking of the clan they merged into....

at present they are saying they do not want to do this So that is fair enough they start where any new clan starts at the bottom and work there way up... i think even aoc and empire know this is what should of happened until ccup4 said they could join outside of the competition rules (they even posted in newcomer cup saying they were talking about signing up,) if you even give them this it will cause more problems in future...

i will repeat the main part of this again
merge = they join up under 1 of the 2 clans and retain there power ranking
new clan= they start from scratch and work there way up like what would happen if half of either clans top players left the clan and went on there own.

example
Atlantis broke away from koa so in effect they should of got a better start on the power ranking than starting at the bottom because they took most of koa's decent players. so every time a clan splits in 2 or clans merge you will have to go by whatever happens here.

[patrickaa317]

example
Atlantis broke away from koa so in effect they should of got a better start on the power ranking than starting at the bottom because they took most of koa's decent players. so every time a clan splits in 2 or clans merge you will have to go by whatever happens here.

I thought majority of Atlantis came from BOTFM?

[Chariot of Fire]

The coaches poll is 1 month old

Where? I've never seen it.

Are you for real?

If you are: https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... 8&t=187767

Yep, I'm for real I'd have thought after requesting the rankings from everyone that he PM'd BGtheBrain would have had the courtesy to say "Here's the ranking" instead of just posting it and hoping we'd find it on the off chance of venturing into that forum. When I PM'd him about it approx one week after submitting our list he told me he hadn't received enough replies and that the poll wouldn't be done. So yeah....this came as a bit of a surprise to me. Thanks for posting the link mate, appreciated.

[Chariot of Fire]

WAR-ID 3-9 2013-04-05

HH-PIG 4-8 2013-04-05

LOW - WAR 9-3 2013-04-02

OSA-HH 9-3 2013-03-24

RET-TFFS 9-3 2013-03-29

SOH-FALL 2-10 2013-03-28

MB-DYN 5-7 2013-04-04

OSA-TOFU 7-5 2013-04-05

MD-WAR 5-7 2013-03-28

RET-HH 7-5 2013-03-29

SOH-FOED 6-6 2013-04-03

FALL-TFFS 6-6 2013-04-03

WAR-OSA[/url] 6-6 2013-04-05

I've read elsewhere that the SOH-FOED result should read 5-7 and not 6-6. Thought you should know. Cheers

[Crazyirishman]

Is it possible for you be able to create a hypothetical clan war or two against some hypothetical clan with a final score in which you could get the AOC/Empire merger clan up to #3 and then boot the hypothetical clan from the rankings?

[Chariot of Fire]

Is it possible for you be able to create a hypothetical clan war or two against some hypothetical clan with a final score in which you could get the AOC/Empire merger clan up to #3 and then boot the hypothetical clan from the rankings?

clever thinking, but a false high score made on this date would impact on the ageing, i.e. AOC/Emp would not be losing points for a long time (the points lost due to deterioration) which usually they would be if current records stood.

[IcePack]

example
Atlantis broke away from koa so in effect they should of got a better start on the power ranking than starting at the bottom because they took most of koa's decent players. so every time a clan splits in 2 or clans merge you will have to go by whatever happens here.

I thought majority of Atlantis came from BOTFM?

I think he was refering to KOA and Fallen, with the wrong clan (Atlantis) accidentally taking the place of Fallen in his sentence

[Chariot of Fire]

Just like to take a minute to say I think Icepack you are doing a good job trying to resolve this for everyone and listen to their comments.

I think it's important to realize that this is a ranking SYSTEM. We all know that this new Empire of Chaos clan is not going to be weak, but messing with the way the F400 is calculated for one clan messes with it's integrity. The most advanced ranking systems I know of are sports ranking systems such as for collegiate teams. What they have learned is to have more than 1 type of ranking system to balance it out. They have computer systems, voting systems etc. When you average you get a better result that helps negate the weaknesses of each system.

For those who are saying we know this new clan will be great despite their decision to wipe out their history and start fresh (causing problems for their F400) I'd like to point out that this new coaches poll will almost certainly rank them in the top 7. It's a great addition to the ranking system as if you have more than 1 ranking system your average helps with the outliers like this clan.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 8&t=187767 Coaches Poll

You might be in for a rude shock if what Bruce has said is true:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 5#p4126487

Totally illogical not to include them in a Coaches Poll, but since when has logic been applied recently?

[eddie2]

example
Atlantis broke away from koa so in effect they should of got a better start on the power ranking than starting at the bottom because they took most of koa's decent players. so every time a clan splits in 2 or clans merge you will have to go by whatever happens here.

I thought majority of Atlantis came from BOTFM?

I think he was refering to KOA and Fallen, with the wrong clan (Atlantis) accidentally taking the place of Fallen in his sentence

yep sorry because i got muddled up koa was also a part break away from bofm as well i just got muddled up with it all.

[Crazyirishman]

Is it possible for you be able to create a hypothetical clan war or two against some hypothetical clan with a final score in which you could get the AOC/Empire merger clan up to #3 and then boot the hypothetical clan from the rankings?

clever thinking, but a false high score made on this date would impact on the ageing, i.e. AOC/Emp would not be losing points for a long time (the points lost due to deterioration) which usually they would be if current records stood.

Good point, trying to get the proper rate of decay would be a challenge.

[Chariot of Fire]

'decay'...that's the word I was looking for this morning. Best I could come up with was 'deterioration' but I knew it wasn't right. Thanks

[happyfeet]

i think that the only thing to do is treat the merge between empire and AoC as a new clan. Unless, they dont change their name and the other clan just joins. since it is a merger and name will be changed they are a new clan. we dont know where they fall and like any new clan they should have a battle their way back to the top. Hopefully, this is something they figured when deciding to do the merger because its the way things are done and we shouldnt change anything because it hurts the system. all new clans have to have 3 completed wars to be added to the ranking and start at 1k.

[hotfire]

Ice....is there a minimum number of games that is required to be played between two clans for the result to be incorporated in the F400? 12 is already quite small; I'm just wondering if it could be any smaller?

It was 18, and was moved to 12 to accommodate an event I believe w public support. It may have even been RL.

The number shouldnt go any smaller than 12

DYN has dropped 12 spots in 8 months...i would like to see what we/they would be ranked if RL results werent included...seriously i think it is weighted way too harsh

[Qwert]

I dont see here any problem,, far before you had many clans who merge and create new clans, and they start from beginning.