Balance Not Included Mafia 3/12 End Game: Balance. Town Wins

[StorrZerg]

(where i got the mafia faction colors and theory, mostly from the breaking bad game)

My bad wrong person had the quote Doesn't matter. answers in blue.

I will save you the research. Here are a few key points to the matter.

First Came the point where Storr unvoted and pulled away and started stating we need a new target.

[spoiler]

@virus concerning mets. I don't think you should be town reading him cause he "defended you" so much. He was explicitly attacking "arguments" for being of poor quality. This is his style of game play, and something like that isn't hard to do as mafia. I'm not calling mets mafia, just stating that read isn't from a good perspective. In fact, the second push i presented against you, he didn't defend. I assume that was cause he thought the second push against you was reasonable and worth looking at.

Virus if you are town. Then i am personally leaning mafia on those who have stated explicitly to vote you because of the early day 1 stuff.

fp by jonty/

Unvote Virus

[/spoiler]
We had a claimed role that could prove ones self. He was set to L-1 with still time to talk. Specifically DJ had made 3 posts. (a 5 day gap on the ENTIRE virus debate) So yes i then set up a conditional for virus, and the second vote being DJ. After i pushed on DJ, he switched his vote to virus, yet i beg you guys to read his post specifically his reasons for voting virus.




Here is my post that further incriminates and points out that I dont believe the claim and while everyone was pulling away I was heading back at it.
As bolded you specifically think the claim fits, this is a contradiction. yes you state it is "weird" And in a game with all power roles, it wouldn't be that weird to have 1 shot abilities.
[spoiler]

Virus: The statement I can see as a Joke, whether it was or not I can believe it. I thought it was from the start but as I always say you need to stir the pot somehow so I took it at that even though it went way out of control. Do I believe that they were role fishing, No. So if things stopped there no worries. However their defense was subpar and the laying low defense and playing off mTam and Storr just seemed weird. Not to mention the Claim does not sit well with me. Overall flavor of the Charecter would either be Joat or straight vig but sits weird on me overall.

Storr: You seemed to have been the focal point of all the finger pointing and someone has to do it but the instant anyone started to turn you pointed at someone else. You were playing a large game of misdirection and that caught me off since you were playing this large game of hot potato. I was inclined to not like your believe on having virus use the one shot but since others have made similiar points I cant fault you on it. I am a bit skeptical of you and mTam, just based on the overall movement and voting structures but cant point one way or another. PLus wont fault your vote either but yeah..

.....taken out for space.....

The problem with an outted vig is there is ALWAYS the block and bus especially when you are trying to tell them who to hit. I dont like that he is a one shot and that overall is what is bothering me the most based on the setup of the game and flavor of the char. If we run into the night, and he uses his kill there is a 27% success rate at this point which is less that optimum. Truthfully from all my ranting and thinking I have found I dont believe them.

Vote Virus90

[/spoiler]

No where in this post, does dj actually call virus scum. Its a simple "well claim is weird" and "bad math" The 1 line of opinion he does give, isn't even original. Secondly the stuff he does give on the matter at hand, are nearly mimic-ed from my accusation on virus earlier. I do find it strange that he says "however their defense was subpar" i'm not sure who he is talking about. 3rd he brings up claims again, this is his main point to voting virus, the CLAIM "doesn't sit well"
(i just want to mention this post is not exact, it is missing stuff viewtopic.php?f=213&t=207134&start=175#p4553810 )


Now Storr is watching the time and hoping the day to end and worried that it ended with Virus on that block and trying to get him involved.
As a fact, i'm more worried about the day having ended to soon. I want virus to talk, I want to figure out his alignment. This push on me, protecting virus at the end would be a much better case if i wasn't the one who placed virus onto the chopping block with multiple pushes.

[spoiler]

i think he still needs 2 more ok. was worried day just ended.

srsly though virus perk up

[/spoiler]


Then he tries to push me to get away from virus since virus was now in trouble. Hell he even capitalized it for me
See the order is wrong. I pushed you way earlier than "this" Your reasons to push virus over claim sucked, while virus is mafia, that doesn't make you clean. Specially since I'm almost certain 2 mafia factions are in this game.

Everyone needs to hop on dj wagon now.
no one has counter claimed being a vig, likely that Virus is real. We only have roughly 6 hours.

Start moving your votes. Anyone still voting virus for day 1 early stuff is a donkey.
I still stand by this, Any one who pushed virus for early day 1 stuff as a reason late in day 2 is probably scum
Hell i was the lead pusher on virus AND IM NOT PUSHING HIM ANY MORE.

Im going to keep logs of anyone i see viewing this forum, and failing to post.

This quote is VERY important. why? because i wanted talk. It doesn't state "if i see you on and not switching votes your scum.

And tried to push others to do it
[spoiler]

pcm i see you.....

[/spoiler]

Delay delay and hoping for the day to end in possible NL


[spoiler]

o nvm. Its L-1. Thought it was l-2.

since that is the case, i'll be hammering virus in about 2 hours or so. (if he fails to post/say anything)

[/spoiler]


fp IB

You think i would "fail to submit the vote on time" when i specifically said i would hammer, and risk myself the next day to backlash for failing to hammer. You got to be crazy.

[Metsfanmax]

If Storr was mafia, it seems highly unlikely that he would have pushed the original case on virus all the way up to claim, and then only back off later when the wagon had way too much inertia to stop. If he's mafia, then at that point it would have made sense to go along with the lynch (which was inevitable IMO) and cement his 'town' credentials. That is, assuming he had a halfway decent read on the situation. Even in the two mafia scenario, where he and virus are opposite mafia factions, there's no reason he'd want virus to remain alive. It's possible this was a master play on his part, but I'm more inclined to think that he really just believed the better play was to let virus 'prove' his role. I can't fully blame him for that since it was a close call for me to lynch virus.

So I'm uncertain on the Storr wagon. Dj's post didn't really contain any useful information. Within the logic contained above, the urgency of Storr's push makes sense because of the timing in question -- we didn't have time to do a protracted push and claim on Dj because we would have ended D1 with a no lynch. To me, it just looks like a really hasty and ill-conceived play on Storr's part. However, I could be convinced that he's mafia if people have more info.

[pancakemix]

You can calm down with your emotions. Secondly why don't you explain why You think I'm mafia.

Giving the explanation of "looks like shit" is well shit.

Why is that I'm always "emotional"? I'm never emotional.

You asked a question:

So you honestly believe, i pushed virus for 5 or 6 days, "making up cases on him multiple times" then back out last minute to try and save him? *as mafia with virus*

And I responded "Actually, yes". Don't try to distract from what I'm saying. I think I've already shown this game that I don't take kindly to it.

Why does virus failing to vote or mention dj have to be bad play?

It doesn't. He could have been more focused on saving his own skin. That's not the point. The point is that you seem to be suggesting that virus deliberately ignored DJ (presumably to avoid drawing attention to him as a scummate) and I find that whole scenario highly unlikely.

New point pcm I think it is likely we have 2 mafia factions. Your thoughts?

Terrible idea. I'll grant this game unbalanced, but two mafias and a cult? You couldn't fit it all.

Anywho, DJ summed up perfectly my thoughts on you thus far. You ate virus' claim up when everyone else felt it was fishy. Then you literally asked us to wagon DJ. You're not in a position to ask for time, tbh. If you want time, you need to claim.

[StorrZerg]

Dj, I can see your point. That would be one hell of a play by Storr... Though I suppose not impossible.
Sure not impossible, but if im going to push virus that hard, why not take all the credit. Seems very silly to spend all that time and effort FORCE him to claim, then pull off with 1 day to go and hope a "no lynch happens as i'm screaming to lynch dj"
The fact that he is changing his mind around so quick, but especially so late on the day is suspicious indeed. 'Forcing' everyone on a wagon last minute after having chased around another case the entire day is also suspicious.
Still, it was Storr's case that got a mafia lynched on D1.
Fact. You should also consider how many people i got to move votes off "poor choices" Specifically mets and pcm, neither would have been lynched at that point. Both had contributed both had been fighting with each other. I got them to move votes on someone that had a realistic chance of being lynched. Why? Because i wanted a lynch to happen. This goes back to, why would i do this if i never wanted virus lynched in the first place.

We can also meta a bit on the kills: seeing how mafia would like to take out Storr if town, they would have targeted him. But he's alive. Though likely a doc would have saved him this night, so mafia would have failed (unless they would have anticipated him being protected). You can see where this is going lol.
Consider this, if i am town who was working with me very well yesterday. tambo. If i am mafia, why do i kill someone who is working well with me? Its not like i had a "power role read on him" since everyone has a power role. Back to the doc idea, it is likely a save happened. If hotshot can die visiting mafia when he tries to recruit, and there are 2 mafia factions, a kill is missing. I wouldn't say its definitive, but it could have happened. Alternatively maybe mtamb role blocked someone. No one has claimed to have been role blocked yet, and its pretty certain he used it.


Very well, for now i'll hop on the wagon to further the game while I try to come up with something else.

Vote Storr

[StorrZerg]

You can calm down with your emotions. Secondly why don't you explain why You think I'm mafia.

Giving the explanation of "looks like shit" is well shit.

Why is that I'm always "emotional"? I'm never emotional.
The increase of vulgar language and caps lock is my basis.

You asked a question:

So you honestly believe, i pushed virus for 5 or 6 days, "making up cases on him multiple times" then back out last minute to try and save him? *as mafia with virus*

And I responded "Actually, yes". Don't try to distract from what I'm saying. I think I've already shown this game that I don't take kindly to it.
I'm not trying to distract, trying to generate conversation. When you lead with "look like shit" as a reason i have to poke and prod you more. I think it is very likely you would not have switched your vote off mets, if i had not intervened with you 2. In fact you only switched your vote when i called you out.

Why does virus failing to vote or mention dj have to be bad play?

It doesn't. He could have been more focused on saving his own skin. That's not the point. The point is that you seem to be suggesting that virus deliberately ignored DJ (presumably to avoid drawing attention to him as a scummate) and I find that whole scenario highly unlikely.
I am most certainly pointing out that connection of virus and dj. If you got put in virus shoes, why wouldn't you switch your vote to the the closest vote, and try to push that person? I think the only real reason is because they are scum together, which is why he left his vote on iron Butterfly. That action sealed his fate. Its not like he failed to talk about dj, just to talk about dj, it was specifically brought up that he SHOULD talk about dj and didn't.

New point pcm I think it is likely we have 2 mafia factions. Your thoughts?

Terrible idea. I'll grant this game unbalanced, but two mafias and a cult? You couldn't fit it all.
So what is your theory then on why mafia virus flipped the second faction of mafia color like that in breaking bad. I don't put 2 mafia factions and a cult leader (who might die if he converts a mafia) WITH all town power roles unlikely.

Anywho, DJ summed up perfectly my thoughts on you thus far. You ate virus' claim up when everyone else felt it was fishy. Then you literally asked us to wagon DJ. You're not in a position to ask for time, tbh. If you want time, you need to claim.
How scummy is that statement? Not in a position to ask for time. It is hardly 24 hours into day 2 which lasts for 7 days, and you just want the day to end NOW. I'll claim roughly in 2 days if i still have this much pressure. Till then we should be talking. I'd love this time to be used on talking about the cases on me, for people giving opinions on the cases. Giving a read on me. However keeping 100% of the attention on me will be bad for town since even if you truly believe that i am mafia, i cannot be alone.

With that i would like to start new talk on tambo. As a confirmed pro town player One of his last thoughts he left the game

tamboooo help me lynch a mafia

and if you are mafia, do me a favor and just start a lynch on your buddy kthx

I still think Virus might be mafia, after now realizing I cant read. Your back in my good books.

With the ability to "prove himself" sort a say I could lay off of him for today. I think James or silver would be a good push. I didnt like james read on virus it didnt really make any sense to me. This is a text based game and says he doesnt read into virus posts because of a language barrier. I think that is redonkulous. The best example I can give is Gab, he has a pretty big barrier when it comes to the english language but I feel I can still get a read on the way he posts and how he is going about his posting. To not look into someones post because of that reason is complete BS to me.

After realizing his error, he is back to reading me town. Yes this is part of my defense, but he also gives some opinions about the virus case. Specifically i can agree with tambo about the james read, it doesn't make sense. How ever i disagree with silver aka Streaker. I think he is trying to figure out the game, he is asking questions and trying to understand. He doesn't' seem to be blindly voting nor does he seem to be doing anything overtly scummy.

It's not looking promising, I'm just questioning right now whether or not if virus isn't lynched here and lasts for the rest of this game would I lynch him later on or just ride with him til the end. I would rather see Dj lynched today but no one is around here at eod

hence why he followed me in the end, he believed i am town. And he is correct.

[Metsfanmax]

With that i would like to start new talk on tambo. As a confirmed pro town player One of his last thoughts he left the game

...

After realizing his error, he is back to reading me town. Yes this is part of my defense, but he also gives some opinions about the virus case. Specifically i can agree with tambo about the james read, it doesn't make sense. How ever i disagree with silver aka Streaker. I think he is trying to figure out the game, he is asking questions and trying to understand. He doesn't' seem to be blindly voting nor does he seem to be doing anything overtly scummy.

This means nothing. If mtam is town that means he doesn't know anything about anyone else. So any opinion he has on D1 is nothing more than a read. (Well, unless there's some sort of mason role...)

[StorrZerg]

Mets are we going to have the same exact disagreement ad we did in breaking bad?

You are absolutely right that he doesn't know 100% that I am town. But his opinions of the game came from a town mindset. So his opinions even if wrong are worth some discussion. Even talking about why he died is relivent.

[StorrZerg]

Facts about day 1.
I was the first to call out Virus for his joke vote.
I deliberately stated this wasn't a joke vote, and i was very serious.

Virus laid low, he even stated he laid low to avoid pressure. Stating "only defending yourself seems to just get you lynched"
I was the one that pointed out he wasn't playing the game. I was the one that revamped the Lynch virus wagon. And forced the claim.


I was very persistent that a lynch was going to happen that day. I found people who had poor votes, and questioned them, tried to convince them to move their vote to a reasonable day 1 case that could end up resulting in a lynch. People that come to mind would be PCM (vote on mets), Mets (vote on pcm) , James(vote on myself with poor reasoning) , DJ (no vote) , Virus, (vote on IB) . Streaker (vote on jonty). I wanted people to recheck into the game, and give updated opinions or consider looking to someone that could be lynched.


Up to this point I'm super fucking town.
2 clear things have happened. 1 i am scum hunting (effectively at that since virus flips mafia) 2. I am trying to organize town to get a lynch to happen.

After this point. I push on to DJ. A target that has said absolutely NOTHING game related and we are on day 5 or 6.

I state that Virus Could prove himself, And that virus Should give input Directly onto DJfireside.

HIs failure to do this, is why i very much consider DJfireside alignment to be mafia WITH virus.

He then votes virus, regardless of his alignment, if he thinks a wagon is coming to him, its the smart choice to push on the person with the highest votes to secure your life.

I state i think he is scum.
Tambo thinks he is scum as well.

I made sure tambo would be on, and if needed we both would move over to virus to hammer him.

Virus fails to comply with my demands on him, i am ready to hammer him as i have stated. I felt i gave reasonable room for a "town virus" to try and well do anything.

The entire drive behind the virus lynch was the product of MY doing. I was very clearly looking for scum.
Even though I DID pull off of virus and push a NEW lynch, No way meant I wanted a no lynch over lynching him.
My actions on day 1, are very easy to read as someone who WANTS a lynch to happen, anyone giving the opinion that i wanted a No lynch is 100% wrong.

At the end of the day, Which person would i have wanted to lynch more (prior to Virus LAST post) DJ. My options for lynches near the end was Virus and DJ.
Both are my own pushes.
Virus failure at the end of the day, complied with my conditional to hammering him.

[Metsfanmax]

Well, I still believe that your push on virus was based on awful, awful evidence. Don't give yourself too much credit for what was essentially luck, unless you know something that we don't.

[StorrZerg]

First half of push sure. Are you saying my second major push was crap as well?

[spiesr]

@dj why do you think virus didn't vote on you near the end? I made it very clear his only option was to vote you, yet he failed to do so. He even stated he didnt see another option at the time. He even failed to mention you in his closing thoughts, when i even asked him to.

Interesting theory (that Virus didn't vote DJ in order because they were scum mates). However, as evidenced by what else he did/didn't do at the time, Virus was clearly on at the top of his game then. So I am not sure we can rule out him having simply missed the seemingly preferable play.

Also 2 mafia factions based off the kill on virus. color= This being his death color mafia faction 2

And other mafia deaths in previous games being color=#BF0000 mafia faction 1

Unless we see a different color flip I don't think we can draw any conclusions from a different shade of red being used in a different game.

Fact. You should also consider how many people i got to move votes off "poor choices" Specifically mets and pcm, neither would have been lynched at that point. Both had contributed both had been fighting with each other. I got them to move votes on someone that had a realistic chance of being lynched. Why? Because i wanted a lynch to happen. This goes back to, why would i do this if i never wanted virus lynched in the first place.

You raise decent point here. Your insistence that pancakemix & metfan drop their Day 1 argument did certainly smell townish. Not that mafia don't do townish things, but I will consider this a point in your favor, at least until one of them flips scum.

Consider this, if i am town who was working with me very well yesterday. tambo. If i am mafia, why do i kill someone who is working well with me? Its not like i had a "power role read on him" since everyone has a power role. Back to the doc idea, it is likely a save happened. If hotshot can die visiting mafia when he tries to recruit, and there are 2 mafia factions, a kill is missing. I wouldn't say its definitive, but it could have happened. Alternatively maybe mtamb role blocked someone. No one has claimed to have been role blocked yet, and its pretty certain he used it.

Your two mafia theory, which you bring up in the same paragraph, makes the point about mtam's death totally moot.

So what is your theory then on why mafia virus flipped the second faction of mafia color like that in breaking bad. I don't put 2 mafia factions and a cult leader (who might die if he converts a mafia) WITH all town power roles unlikely.

That potential (probable?) aspect of the cult leader role makes it's inclusion in a game this size with 2 mafia factions a borderline bastard role. The odds of it dying within the first 2 Nights are just too high.

How scummy is that statement? Not in a position to ask for time. It is hardly 24 hours into day 2 which lasts for 7 days, and you just want the day to end NOW. I'll claim roughly in 2 days if i still have this much pressure. Till then we should be talking. I'd love this time to be used on talking about the cases on me, for people giving opinions on the cases. Giving a read on me. However keeping 100% of the attention on me will be bad for town since even if you truly believe that i am mafia, i cannot be alone.

You were at L-1 (and it is not like you not being there now is because anyone changed how they feel about you). You should be claiming now, not waiting days. If the attention stays only on you it is partially your fault for not taking the appropriate steps to resolves it in a timely manner. The sooner you claim the sooner people will (potentially) start unvoting you and looking elsewhere. Making us wait for a claim will keep all the focus on you and put the game in a stall.

You are absolutely right that he doesn't know 100% that I am town. But his opinions of the game came from a town mindset. So his opinions even if wrong are worth some discussion. Even talking about why he died is relivent.

I am fairly confident that at least half of the opinions currently calling you scummy are also from Town mindsets. And they have had more time and information available with which to make that conclusion. So unless he is just better at reading you I don't see any reason to give his opinion greater (or even equal) weighting.

[StorrZerg]

Interesting theory (that Virus didn't vote DJ in order because they were scum mates). However, as evidenced by what else he did/didn't do at the time, Virus was clearly on at the top of his game then. So I am not sure we can rule out him having simply missed the seemingly preferable play.
He specifically responded to me saying he didn't see another wagon. So i'm more inclined to think he decided to not switch his vote, rather than a mistake.

Unless we see a different color flip I don't think we can draw any conclusions from a different shade of red being used in a different game.
We had 2 deaths in the night though, wouldn't you say the likely hood of 2 mafia factions is considerably higher? It is one explanation of a few that answers 2 deaths in the night.

You raise decent point here. Your insistence that pancakemix & metfan drop their Day 1 argument did certainly smell townish. Not that mafia don't do townish things, but I will consider this a point in your favor, at least until one of them flips scum.
Does your opinion change if one of them is a different mafia faction than virus? I'd say if either of them happened to be scum. I think i can say with a high level of confidence that they are not both on the same anti town team.

Your two mafia theory, which you bring up in the same paragraph, makes the point about mtam's death totally moot.
Ah but if you believe in 2 mafia factions, then i am far less likely to switch form virus or even start a case on virus. Why? because 2 factions means less mafia on each team generally, it also means its very silly to lynch a mafia when everyone has a power. A mafia kill from virus could make the game end 1 day faster. If i was to bus him on the same team, wouldn't it be much better to NOT get him killed or even pressure him THAT hard day 1, and just bus him day 2 after he used his shot? (easy answer yes).

That potential (probable?) aspect of the cult leader role makes it's inclusion in a game this size with 2 mafia factions a borderline bastard role. The odds of it dying within the first 2 Nights are just too high.
Maybe, so then it might just be 1 mafia faction, no sk and hotshot might have died when recruiting mafia. If that is the case, i'd still never kill mtamb. With the limited games we have played on forum, neither of us has lynched the other, or killed each other in the night. When i've been mafia, i let town lynch him while i defended him, fairly easy since he is quite abbrasive. When we played both town, we both tend to be skeptical of each other, but never push on each other. Both games we have both been town, he has died n1. (not to mention i asked him to join this game since we both had died in our gon game)
You were at L-1 (and it is not like you not being there now is because anyone changed how they feel about you). You should be claiming now, not waiting days. If the attention stays only on you it is partially your fault for not taking the appropriate steps to resolves it in a timely manner. The sooner you claim the sooner people will (potentially) start unvoting you and looking elsewhere. Making us wait for a claim will keep all the focus on you and put the game in a stall.

Read my breaking bad game. Just skim my posts regarding claims. Mets and pcm should easily be able to confirm my opinion on claims (ib too). Hell look at my opinion in the newbie thread (mafia discussion). I care deeply about finding mafia with out having to rely on power roles. (yes this also means i take great pride when i am mafia, being able to control the game) I don't really care if i was at l-1. I'll claim when i feel i need to, and wagoning on no discussion with 12 hours into a game is hardly a reason to claim. Tell me why i should claim now? What changes with the claim. What do you personally get out of it? I want to convince people to unvote me not because of what i claim. As far as making "everyone wait" I'm not. No one should be "waiting" for the claim. Talking needs to be done. So i at least thank you for taking time to actually talk rather than just posting a vote with "yeah end of day you look bad storr, and i forgot about everything that happened the first 90% of the game regarding virus and how you got us to a lynch"

I am fairly confident that at least half of the opinions currently calling you scummy are also from Town mindsets. And they have had more time and information available with which to make that conclusion. So unless he is just better at reading you I don't see any reason to give his opinion greater (or even equal) weighting.
The main difference is we know that mtamb is town. I don't know who is mafia or town calling me scum now. All i can do is look at the people who have weak reasoning, or no reasoning at all and just vote to bandwagon. mtamb is probably better at reading me than any of you here. Considering how much we have played video mafia, and how much we have played forum together, or even talk about forum mafia. (hint we talk a lot about mafia). Even if tambo had never played with me, and we didn't know each other, his opinion is weighted more since he is a confirmed town. It came from a town mindset, its not like he was fabricating a read, it was a genuine read. Obviously you are right regarding his information is limited, he had no way of being sure of my alignment other than his own opinion. We don't know exactly why he was killed, was he on the right track? was he very town day 1 and thats why he died. idk. Did i kill him because he had called me town? Thing is, if he was alive right now he would be in the same boat as me, since he followed me on dj.

spiesr I have you as town. You are contributing to the game, you are discussing the game. You like discussion, as evident on day 1 when you pressured dj early on. You are also fairly open minded this game, picked up and agreed with several of my points on virus when i called him out. How do you personally feel about djfireside day 2? And what do you think of James?

[StorrZerg]

Yes i know i've been pushing dj today. Yet, i don't want to vote him right now. Why? he is participating in the game.

##Vote Jamesker

This guy needs to be discussed more. He had 2 posts in 7 days. on day 1.

Virus made no mention of him day 1. (Yes i believe this to be on the same relevance as DJ, i believe mafia virus, has a tendency to avoid talking about his scum buddies when he plays as mafia if someone has a different opinion on this please say so.)

James was probably the first person to actually be defending Virus. calling the accusation "baseless"

Now consider this

If better reasoning comes up I'll vote virus

He made this statement, AFTER i presented a second case on virus attacking him for not contributing the game, and not reading the game James made this comment, along with continuing to push me right before virus claimed. That was his last post. James considered at that point in time "throwing names around trying to get things to stick" far more scummy than virus not participating in the game. He even gave me town credit in his same post.

Looking at james actions, he left a vote on someone that clearly wasn't going to get lynched day 1. He basically threw his vote away, it seems that he probably didn't care about a lynch happening.

[pancakemix]

Storr, I think you underestimate the power/value of a claim in this meta (or choose to ignore it in favor of your own). You were at L-1 for a moment, which spiesr pointed out. That means you were inches from not even getting a say at all. The unvote was a reprieve; it WAS you getting more time. Refusing to claim is only a good way to get yourself lynched in that position. Now you're trying to start a new discussion about James, when you really need to get the log out of your own eye, else it just seems like you flailing your arms. Frankly, I feel like everything you're trying to put forward reads that way (like the 2-mafia theory).

As for James, I know he pulled out of one game. That suggests a lack of time for games in general. He's more likely to be a candidate for replacement that lynching.

[JamesKer1]

Storr, I thought you were scummy day 1, and I still think you are getting scummier by the post today. If you weren't at L-2, my vote would definitely be on you. However, I will be more than happy to put you back at L-1, and would if it weren't for the possibility of an unneeded speed lynch that became my fault in part.

My defense of virus was ONLY to help push a case on you. One of the many, many reasons behind my thoughts of you being scummy, but it was the clearest to explain and make sense of. An unwarranted wagon seemed very scummy to me, and a good defense is the best offense was my mentality. If you have any questions regarding my actions with Virus, PLEASE ask instead of make a blanket statement that I am scummy because of it. I am more than willing to answer questions, but not unspecific attacks.

[StorrZerg]

Discussion on the game needs to happen regardless of myself being lynched. lets say i don't understand the value of a claim "in this meta" why don't don't you explain why claiming would be good for me? Why would the claim be good for town? You managed to have some discussion about others when you tunneled mets, why can't you have some discussion now about other players right now. Why don't you try and figure out my alignment by asking me questions. What if i had been busy, and couldn't post, lost internet for 2 days. Are you saying that just halts the game for you, paralyzed until i would come back and claim?



Good point about james. Pressure him, make him be replaced. If you think 2 posts a day phase is acceptable to figuring out the game and being a good asset to town? (well you don't since you suggest replacement) If that is the case, more pressure on james will cause an effect of either 1. replacement, or 2. he will start to post. (also what game are you referring to that he dropped out on)

fp james.

[StorrZerg]

@james any time you want to give a read on anyone else in the game, that would be lovely.

[JamesKer1]

@james any time you want to give a read on anyone else in the game, that would be lovely.

Fantastic. I'll make a nice little list. Just for you.

[Djfireside]

Storr: I am with you in regards to people not posting. I noticed that IB and James were not posting and while it was on my mind because I would like to know if anyone has anything interesting to add to the game, all I have to work with is what I saw. I Full on know real life comes up as I had that occur for me and I do see some of your points but I am somewhat unconvinced for the plain reason I didnt agree with your reason for pushing Virus in the first place and your defense of him in my eyes but I respect your vigor and your explanations. Im not pushing you because you pushed me but just because of what I saw occur. I have pinned you and another as my other Mafia choices but much like what PCM said, a claim helps us to make a determination and while you are skating I will stay until I find something better or get a claim I am okay with.

As for your thoughts on me, I became active again when the BW on virus was over and the claim was given people were backing off, I started it back up claiming I didnt believe it at the time I came back before there was a BW on me. So while you make some interesting points, there was no reason for me to vote him without first attempting to defend myself and redirect to someone else rather than go after virus if we were in fact scummates.

I too would like to hear from others but I dont forsee putting pressure on James to be worthwhile since they are not watching the game however I would like to request a PROD please of those who havent posted

FP x4 and Im too lazy to go back and update since its all relevant up until James posted.....

[Metsfanmax]

You were at L-1 (and it is not like you not being there now is because anyone changed how they feel about you). You should be claiming now, not waiting days. If the attention stays only on you it is partially your fault for not taking the appropriate steps to resolves it in a timely manner. The sooner you claim the sooner people will (potentially) start unvoting you and looking elsewhere. Making us wait for a claim will keep all the focus on you and put the game in a stall.

I think this is very hasty. Applies equally to pcm. L-2 is three votes. Three votes. If Storr is town, likely that at least one of the four people who brought him to L-1 are scum. Insisting that he should claim immediately based on this smells scummy to me, and this comment is FOS-worthy.

[JamesKer1]

1. storrzerg- Scummy, reasons listed in previous posts, of my own and others.
4. Djfireside- Leaning town, but not a ton of posting to get a clear read on.
5. Pancake- No opinion, but suggesting replacements over lynching is always a town-move. Doesn't necessarily make one town though
6. Jamesker- 4th Party... Doh!
7. Jonty- Not much posting. Very hard to get a read. Hopped on the Storr wagon.
8. Iron Butterfly- Same as above
10. Silver Samus- Same as above.
11. Metsfanmax- No opinion, but town feel to his posts.
12. Spiesr- 95% town. Very clear thinking, just town agenda overall.

Ellaboration:

The Mets v Pancake argument sidetracked things Day 1, and either was a mafia ploy to fight and separate or an unintentional town argument between two active and intelligent players. I have more faith in the latter, but because the first is a possibility I'm not saying anything definitive.

Spiesr is extremely clear with reasoning, forms his own opinions for votes,and won't wagon for the sake of wagonning as many have so far. Very town agenda, and I would say 100% town if certainty wasn't impossible.

Jonty, Streaker, IB, and DJ are all under the radar, but I am also, so I don't want to attribute this to scuminess lest I become a hypocrite. However, it is suspicious, and all of them have made town-ish posts that don't seem too out of line.

Storr is still my number one suspect. You shouldn't have to pat yourself on the back for "town moves"- that makes them seem planned out and calculated. Just like breadcrumbing your role to use as a backup for a claim. It could really be proof, or it could be planned out, but since you provided that info, it now all means nothing. Let someone else recognize town moves by making some more.

"My actions on day 1, are very easy to read as someone who WANTS a lynch to happen, anyone giving the opinion that i wanted a No lynch is 100% wrong."

Yes, but the target didn't seem to matter- myself, DJ, and everyone else that you are STILL accusing today- so that point is invalid. If you had one set person, might give you town cred, but as I said before, you were and still are trying to make any case stick that you can.

FP'd by DJ and mets

[spiesr]

Your two mafia theory, which you bring up in the same paragraph, makes the point about mtam's death totally moot.

Ah but if you believe in 2 mafia factions, then i am far less likely to switch form virus or even start a case on virus. Why? because 2 factions means less mafia on each team generally, it also means its very silly to lynch a mafia when everyone has a power. A mafia kill from virus could make the game end 1 day faster. If i was to bus him on the same team, wouldn't it be much better to NOT get him killed or even pressure him THAT hard day 1, and just bus him day 2 after he used his shot? (easy answer yes).

I don't believe there are two mafia factions. I was just pointing out that you appear to believe that, but were making a point in your defence that doesn't work at all if there are two. You should know that that point falls apart with two scum factions and I have a problem with you presenting it and espousing that belief.

And what do you think of James?

His activity level is unacceptable. His lack of posts make it difficult for me to get a real read on him. I don't think it is a deliberate attempt to scumarine. This line is weird because he didn't actually make a defence of Virus, certainly not one that advanced a case on you.[spoiler]

My defense of virus was ONLY to help push a case on you.

[/spoiler]

Why would the claim be good for town?

You will be lynched if you don't provide one. If you are town that would be bad for the town. Refusing to claim when you have the level of votes you do is practically policy lynch material. As such we won't even learn as much from your lynch, since anyone voting you at the point will be sufficiently justified as to be beyond question. You can talk your way out of being lynched (after a claim), but you can't talk your way out of having to claim anymore.

He then votes virus, regardless of his alignment, if he thinks a wagon is coming to him, its the smart choice to push on the person with the highest votes to secure your life.

From this I conclude that you should think it was a mistake for Virus not to vote for Djfireside. Is there any reason that you think that the version of the mistake where Djfireside is scum is more likely that the one where he is town?

We had 2 deaths in the night though, wouldn't you say the likely hood of 2 mafia factions is considerably higher? It is one explanation of a few that answers 2 deaths in the night.

On it's own the number of deaths in the night increases the chances of there being two scum groups to a higher level than if there had been just one death. However, I still feel like there only being one mafia group & a cult (which may or may not have any surviving members) is more likely.

[spiesr]

"My actions on day 1, are very easy to read as someone who WANTS a lynch to happen, anyone giving the opinion that i wanted a No lynch is 100% wrong."

Yes, but the target didn't seem to matter- myself, DJ, and everyone else that you are STILL accusing today- so that point is invalid. If you had one set person, might give you town cred, but as I said before, you were and still are trying to make any case stick that you can.

So, do you think he an SK or part of a second scum group? You say it seems like he didn't care who specifically got lynched as long as it happened. That can be a scum attitude, but it comes with a big caveat, it can be anyone but a member of their group. One of the people he focused on the most was scum. This doesn't match the "anyone buy my team" scum attitude you are suggesting.

You were at L-1 (and it is not like you not being there now is because anyone changed how they feel about you). You should be claiming now, not waiting days. If the attention stays only on you it is partially your fault for not taking the appropriate steps to resolves it in a timely manner. The sooner you claim the sooner people will (potentially) start unvoting you and looking elsewhere. Making us wait for a claim will keep all the focus on you and put the game in a stall.

I think this is very hasty. Applies equally to pcm. L-2 is three votes. Three votes. If Storr is town, likely that at least one of the four people who brought him to L-1 are scum. Insisting that he should claim immediately based on this smells scummy to me, and this comment is FOS-worthy.

You emphasize the three votes he has now, but I am pretty sure there are at least five people who would be happy enough to vote for him. The "pressure" on him is enough to elicit a claim and likely won't be going anywhere unless that happens.

@james any time you want to give a read on anyone else in the game, that would be lovely.

Fantastic. I'll make a nice little list. Just for you.

He's not the only one who would like to see more regular contributions out of you.

You managed to have some discussion about others when you tunneled mets, why can't you have some discussion now about other players right now. Why don't you try and figure out my alignment by asking me questions.

One point to think about is there is now enough people who want to see you claim that they might be resistant to other discussions for fear that you will "get away" is attention is directed elsewhere. I know not holding to a scummy person is something I have regretted in the past.

[Iron Butterfly]

I have to agree Storr was incredibly scummy towards the D1, and the fact that we was protecting mafia cannot be ignored.

Also, I believe the cult recruiter in the scene either tried to target PGO/Mafia/SK, not vig.

vote StorrZerg

Long day today and had to fight the wife off the computer and I am exhausted. I will make a more in depth post when I can better digest Storrs defense and others posts. I will say this, we have plenty of time so I do not see any rush. I will say a few things off the top of my head though.

The two different mafia faction happened in a bigger game. I do not see how we could have two mafia factions and cult. As someone earlier stated you can't make that judgement based solely on color font.

Second there had best not be a lynch of anyone with out full discussion. That was one frigging quick bandwagon boys. While I can see the points raised by DJ I will say that Storr is not my top scum. At the end of the day I was really suspecting Streaker as scum for the flippant way he justified to let Virus live to use his ability.

However Jonty jumped to the top by putting Storr at L1. There is NO HURRY! Jonty has played true to form once again...you just don't jump in and put someone at L1 before they claim. That has been CC mafia protocol forever.

NOW Store you are a stubborn F&%K it seems. I don't care what you think BUT you had best claim as you are in no position to change CC protocol. You claim at L2 period.

[Metsfanmax]

You emphasize the three votes he has now, but I am pretty sure there are at least five people who would be happy enough to vote for him. The "pressure" on him is enough to elicit a claim and likely won't be going anywhere unless that happens.

I know. Hell, I might even vote for him. But we absolutely cannot waste D2 by ending it early. This game is going to move rapidly if N1 is any indication and so we need to work out any other leads we might have, and give people like James a chance to post more and get back in the game.