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Social Planning/Democracy

Postby warmonger1981 on Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:22 pm

Everything seems to be about social planning. Can a free democracy survive micromanagement geared towards the compartmentalization of society? Does race play a huge role in managing these groups? Does the planning of communities or society eventually lead to serfdom?
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Re: Social Planning/Democracy

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:59 pm

Oh, man... where to begin?

Defining words like 'planning', micromanagement, compartmentalization of society, and 'serfdom' would help.

No one can really challenge or support your stance if they're not even sure what to look for.

Also, have you read Hayek's Road to Serfdom or did you read the cliffnotes version?
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Re: Social Planning/Democracy

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:25 am

Hayek's book cover for 'Road to Serfdom' avatar was the prize for winning one of my DarkPhatRising Feudal tournies, and they rocked the Hayek avatar for a solid year

I opine no, it cannot. Government central planning is the anti-thesis of Democracy or anything 'Free', since if the citizens of said Democracy do not like the central plan, it's highly unlikely the central planners would willingly allow any kind of real Democracy or Freedom that say busted the central planners lifetime gravy train. You'd get 'Democracy, so long as it agrees with our central plan'. Anyone who disagrees is viewed as a 'threat'.
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Re: Social Planning/Democracy

Postby mrswdk on Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:51 am

Phatscotty wrote:Government central planning is the anti-thesis of Democracy or anything 'Free'


On the contrary: those citizens are 'free' from the pressure of having to organize everything by themselves. Hooray for central planning!
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Re: Social Planning/Democracy

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:22 am

mrswdk wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Government central planning is the anti-thesis of Democracy or anything 'Free'


On the contrary: those citizens are 'free' from the pressure of having to organize everything by themselves. Hooray for central planning!



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Re: Social Planning/Democracy

Postby tzor on Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:05 am

First and foremost "social planing" is an impossibility. It is based on Utopian falsehoods that are as old as the ancient Greeks. It doesn't matter if the claptrap comes from church or state, the claptrap is still extremely dangerous. Following it will lead everything to failure. It really is as simple as that.

The current "tool" of the social planner is "progressiveism." This is a notion that started in the late 19th century, along with other classical failures like socialism, and communism. These notions, in and of themselves are antithetical to the notion of democracy. The progressive, who often suffers from the Utopian elitism syndrome, is firmly convinced that his morality is above the "masses" and that he (or she) knows what's best for the masses. The result is a benign (at least in his or her eyes) despotism. Mind you, if social planning actually worked, this might not be all that bad, but it does not.

Social planning, in and of itself, is not antithetical to democracy (but then again, democracy isn't always a great thing and a pure democracy can be just as horrid as despotism). The best example would be the most feared and dreaded "home owners association."
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Re: Social Planning/Democracy

Postby mrswdk on Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:06 pm

tzor wrote:There is no flawless system for managing a society.


Yup.
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Re: Social Planning/Democracy

Postby notyou2 on Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:57 pm

warmonger1981 wrote:Everything seems to be about social planning. Can a free democracy survive micromanagement geared towards the compartmentalization of society? Does race play a huge role in managing these groups? Does the planning of communities or society eventually lead to serfdom?


You some sort of commie boy?
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Re: Social Planning/Democracy

Postby warmonger1981 on Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:00 pm

RE BBS: Planning defined as people or persons as a whole making decisions on behalf of others willingly or not. Humans like to literally micro-manage others through numerous ways. It could be by taxation or education to name a few. The FBI or CIA would be a good example of compartmentalization of information. I just bought the book you stalker.

RE notyou2 I'm about as live and let live kind of guy. That's your yard, this is mine, let's stay on our sides.
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Re: Social Planning/Democracy

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:53 pm

warmonger1981 wrote:RE BBS: Planning defined as people or persons as a whole making decisions on behalf of others willingly or not. Humans like to literally micro-manage others through numerous ways. It could be by taxation or education to name a few. The FBI or CIA would be a good example of compartmentalization of information. I just bought the book you stalker.

RE notyou2 I'm about as live and let live kind of guy. That's your yard, this is mine, let's stay on our sides.


So... planning refers to business management--even to the Mom and Pops shop... somehow this will lead to destruction of society?


RE: Hayek, his Counter-Revolution of the Sciences goes more into the scientism and how economists viewed themselves more as social engineers who planned society into their vision (through state coercion).

The Road to Serfdom is interesting, but it almost ruined his professional credentials (it's also frequently misunderstood).

Law, Legislation, and Liberty and his Fatal Conceit are where it's at.
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Re: Social Planning/Democracy

Postby warmonger1981 on Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:57 am

I would necessarily say planning = business management but unfortunately everything has become business. Our lives are business. When we are seen as capital and not as a humans I have a problem with that. That's when eugenics comes into play as its all about money and efficiency. Do you believe in the concepts of social planning?
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Re: Social Planning/Democracy

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:18 am

Well, planning is necessary, but it depends on the institutional context (i.e. the rules of the game). Firms are essentially little pockets of socialism in the sea of the market. A government within one country which tries to replace the market (a la socialism) is entering a world of pain for its people. Without private property rights, you don't get exchanges. Without the exchanges, you don't get market prices. Without the prices, you don't get efficient decision-making (hence the shortages and surpluses and general waste whenever a state goes full-blown socialism--e.g. Lenin's "war communism" and Mao's mid to late 1950s policies--especially during the agricultural collectivization phase).

Central planning (e.g. within a firm) isn't so bad within a 'sea of markets' though. Sometimes it's too costly too rely on a market order. Imagine having an office supplies market within a firm--instead of having it centrally managed through a bureaucracy. The optimal mix, however, is best discovered through the market order (not by government, which lacks the knowledge and incentives to better solve coordination problems).

So, when it comes to planning, it depends on where it's occurring and why.
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Re: Social Planning/Democracy

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:52 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Well, planning is necessary, but it depends on the institutional context (i.e. the rules of the game). Firms are essentially little pockets of socialism in the sea of the market. A government within one country which tries to replace the market (a la socialism) is entering a world of pain for its people. Without private property rights, you don't get exchanges. Without the exchanges, you don't get market prices. Without the prices, you don't get efficient decision-making (hence the shortages and surpluses and general waste whenever a state goes full-blown socialism--e.g. Lenin's "war communism" and Mao's mid to late 1950s policies--especially during the agricultural collectivization phase).

Central planning (e.g. within a firm) isn't so bad within a 'sea of markets' though. Sometimes it's too costly too rely on a market order. Imagine having an office supplies market within a firm--instead of having it centrally managed through a bureaucracy. The optimal mix, however, is best discovered through the market order (not by government, which lacks the knowledge and incentives to better solve coordination problems).

So, when it comes to planning, it depends on where it's occurring and why.


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Re: Social Planning/Democracy

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:51 am

DoomYoshi wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Well, planning is necessary, but it depends on the institutional context (i.e. the rules of the game). Firms are essentially little pockets of socialism in the sea of the market. A government within one country which tries to replace the market (a la socialism) is entering a world of pain for its people. Without private property rights, you don't get exchanges. Without the exchanges, you don't get market prices. Without the prices, you don't get efficient decision-making (hence the shortages and surpluses and general waste whenever a state goes full-blown socialism--e.g. Lenin's "war communism" and Mao's mid to late 1950s policies--especially during the agricultural collectivization phase).

Central planning (e.g. within a firm) isn't so bad within a 'sea of markets' though. Sometimes it's too costly too rely on a market order. Imagine having an office supplies market within a firm--instead of having it centrally managed through a bureaucracy. The optimal mix, however, is best discovered through the market order (not by government, which lacks the knowledge and incentives to better solve coordination problems).

So, when it comes to planning, it depends on where it's occurring and why.


I'll give you the only red pen in the building for your desk.


Market exchanges are PROHIBITED within the firm. I'm reporting you to Human Resources and to Amnesty International.
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Re: Social Planning/Democracy

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:35 pm

Ok, I'll just steal your desk then. I am also keeping the pen to scribble on your reports.
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Re: Social Planning/Democracy

Postby notyou2 on Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:51 pm

I sell desks and pens at Saxi's Mall. They are for sale in a capitalist society, not some communist backwater that MRS WDK and warmanger want us to live in.
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Re: Social Planning/Democracy

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:32 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Image
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Re: Social Planning/Democracy

Postby warmonger1981 on Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:02 pm

Never said I wanted us to live under communism. I believe in the Constitution. I'm a fiscal conservative/ old school libertarian. But every situation calls for different beliefs. Like I will give my kids equal amounts of food. Does that make me a commie?

Is it possible that organizations such as Round Table movement or Ford Foundation and Rockefeller Foundations and its subsidiaries could manipulate entire nations? Reece Committee investigations. Military Industrial Complex creating wars for profit?
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Re: Social Planning/Democracy

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:32 am

mrswdk wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Government central planning is the anti-thesis of Democracy or anything 'Free'


On the contrary: those citizens are 'free' from the pressure of having to organize everything by themselves. Hooray for central planning!


By definition and in practice, the government is straight up ruling your ass, telling you what you have to do, most likely not even explaining why and just 'greater good' yadda yadda

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