Game of Thrones (series spoiling only!)

[waauw]

http://uk.businessinsider.com/george-rr ... 015-4?r=US

seems like GRRM is at least planning on finishing the 6th book before season 6 on tv

[patches70]

But everything Mance said and did fit perfectly with who Mance is.

O'rly? We'll see I suppose. Stannis is gonna be mad at Jon for killing Mance instead of letting him burn and the worst thing is that Jon killed Mance for the wrong reason! When Stannis gives Jon shit for denying justice Jon is gonna say that he didn't wanna see Mance burn, but all Jon has to say is that he executed Mance for betraying his nightwatch vows! Jon Snow has a higher claim on Mance's life than Stannis has. IMO. Stannis betrayed his oath to the Night's watch before he ever invaded the South. Jon had every right to put an arrow in Mance, but Jon won't explain it that way, will he? Heh heh, We'll see I guess. Jon Snow knows nothing.

[betiko]

But everything Mance said and did fit perfectly with who Mance is.

O'rly? We'll see I suppose. Stannis is gonna be mad at Jon for killing Mance instead of letting him burn and the worst thing is that Jon killed Mance for the wrong reason! When Stannis gives Jon shit for denying justice Jon is gonna say that he didn't wanna see Mance burn, but all Jon has to say is that he executed Mance for betraying his nightwatch vows! Jon Snow has a higher claim on Mance's life than Stannis has. IMO. Stannis betrayed his oath to the Night's watch before he ever invaded the South. Jon had every right to put an arrow in Mance, but Jon won't explain it that way, will he? Heh heh, We'll see I guess. Jon Snow knows nothing.

Yeah regarding that last phrase i wonder if what i heard from a character to jon was on purpose or not.. (My problem is that i saw all 4 episodes and i don t remember when they start and finish)

Anyways regarding Mance, no. He really has no moral choice, he couldn't live accepting it. He raised an army for one purpose... And was prepared to die for it. He got beaten and no way he would accept compromises.

Bah.. I can t discuss because i dont know where the knight s watch storyline stops.


Wauw-> i know what the title says, I wrote it myself! the concept of this thread was to talk about the last aired episode and notto leak book stuff. It s the first time there is an episode leak and I couldn t help not to watch em. I think that discussing stuff always brings spoilers.. I ve been spoiled many things in here by book readers so will try not to spoil anything toshow viewers even through spoilers.

[patches70]

Anyways regarding Mance, no. He really has no moral choice, he couldn't live accepting it. He raised an army for one purpose.

..


And for what purpose exactly did he raise that army?

[waauw]

But everything Mance said and did fit perfectly with who Mance is.

O'rly? We'll see I suppose. Stannis is gonna be mad at Jon for killing Mance instead of letting him burn and the worst thing is that Jon killed Mance for the wrong reason! When Stannis gives Jon shit for denying justice Jon is gonna say that he didn't wanna see Mance burn, but all Jon has to say is that he executed Mance for betraying his nightwatch vows! Jon Snow has a higher claim on Mance's life than Stannis has. IMO. Stannis betrayed his oath to the Night's watch before he ever invaded the South. Jon had every right to put an arrow in Mance, but Jon won't explain it that way, will he? Heh heh, We'll see I guess. Jon Snow knows nothing.

John Has a higher claim than Stannis? How about the fact that Mance was Stannis his prisoner and not John's

[TA1LGUNN3R]

But everything Mance said and did fit perfectly with who Mance is.

O'rly? We'll see I suppose. Stannis is gonna be mad at Jon for killing Mance instead of letting him burn and the worst thing is that Jon killed Mance for the wrong reason! When Stannis gives Jon shit for denying justice Jon is gonna say that he didn't wanna see Mance burn, but all Jon has to say is that he executed Mance for betraying his nightwatch vows! Jon Snow has a higher claim on Mance's life than Stannis has. IMO. Stannis betrayed his oath to the Night's watch before he ever invaded the South. Jon had every right to put an arrow in Mance, but Jon won't explain it that way, will he? Heh heh, We'll see I guess. Jon Snow knows nothing.

Is this the show? I seem to remember something different from DwD:

Spoiler

I seem to recall that Mance wasn't really killed, he was glamored to look like Rattleshirt by Mellisandre while the real Rattleshirt was the man burned. Then Mance was sent by her and Jon to retrieve one of Jon's sisters? It's been a while since I've read it, though.

-TG

[patches70]

Yeah TG, something like that, but I wasn't going to mention any of that. I was talking about the show, and it may turn out a bit like DwD, there were a few clues in the episode aiming that way, but that'll be a surprise later for the non book readers I guess.

[patches70]

But everything Mance said and did fit perfectly with who Mance is.

O'rly? We'll see I suppose. Stannis is gonna be mad at Jon for killing Mance instead of letting him burn and the worst thing is that Jon killed Mance for the wrong reason! When Stannis gives Jon shit for denying justice Jon is gonna say that he didn't wanna see Mance burn, but all Jon has to say is that he executed Mance for betraying his nightwatch vows! Jon Snow has a higher claim on Mance's life than Stannis has. IMO. Stannis betrayed his oath to the Night's watch before he ever invaded the South. Jon had every right to put an arrow in Mance, but Jon won't explain it that way, will he? Heh heh, We'll see I guess. Jon Snow knows nothing.

John Has a higher claim than Stannis? How about the fact that Mance was Stannis his prisoner and not John's

What I'm saying waauw is that probably next episode, knowing Stannis, he's going to be pissed off at Jon about killing Mance before the poor bastard burned to death. Jon, knowing him, will tell Stannis that he didn't think Mance deserved to burn to death, that it was cruel. Stannis will blabber on about Jon denying a King's justice. Jon can avoid that whole route by simply reminding Stannis that Mance took a vow to the Night's watch and the penalty for betraying that vow is death, which was rightfully carried out by Jon when he shot an arrow into him instead of letting him burn.

It's a subtle difference, admittedly, but Jon has the absolute right to put Mance to death and Stannis can't dispute that. Knowing Jon though, he probably won't even bring that up which is why I say Jon rightfully killed Mance but for the wrong reasons. He killed Mance to spare him from the flames when he should be telling Stannis (later, when Stannis gets on his case about it) that he killed Mance because he deserted the Night's watch.

Stannis is a dick like that, Jon thwarted a King's justice, which in itself is a crime that Stannis could string Jon up for, except that Jon as Lord Commander of the Night's watch has authority to mete out Night's watch justice to those who desert the Night's watch. Stannis didn't execute Mance for deserting, he executed Mance for invading the North.

[waauw]

Is this the show? I seem to remember something different from DwD:

Spoiler

I seem to recall that Mance wasn't really killed, he was glamored to look like Rattleshirt by Mellisandre while the real Rattleshirt was the man burned. Then Mance was sent by her and Jon to retrieve one of Jon's sisters? It's been a while since I've read it, though.

-TG

Nah you're correct, that is indeed what happened in the books.

[betiko]

Anyways regarding Mance, no. He really has no moral choice, he couldn't live accepting it. He raised an army for one purpose.

..


And for what purpose exactly did he raise that army?

To invade the north and live as free men, not as vassals

[Army of GOD]

they already consider themselves free men, that's why Mance didn't kneel

[betiko]

they already consider themselves free men, that's why Mance didn't kneel

Yes but they wanted the land AND to remain free men, not one or the other, they prefer to die rather than give up on their fulfilled goal.

[patches70]

To invade the north and live as free men, not as vassals

Nope.

Mance united the various tribes of the Wildlings for only one reason, to get away from the Others and the wights. Mance claims he has the Horn of Winter which when blown can supposedly destroy the Wall, but Mance doesn't want to do that because he wants the Wall to remain intact as a defense against the Others.

There is no other reason for Mance to form his united army except to escape the Others. The Night's watch stands in his way, so he needs a whole lot of warriors to get past the Wall. The goal of Mance's wildling army is to get to safety south of the wall. It has nothing to do with freedom or any of that other deluded talk, its to escape the Others, to survive, nothing else. If not for the Others Mance would never have united the Wildlings let alone have any ambitions at all of invading and capturing the North for the Wildlings. Its just a matter of survival.

At some point Mance knew he'd have to make some sort of deal or arrangement with the peoples south of the Wall, it does no good to escape death at the hands of the Others just to be killed by the kingdoms of Westeros.

Stannis' offer allows Mance to achieve all his goals, safety and peace for the Wildlings south of the Wall and escape from the Others. All this talk about "Freedom" and such, its all delusion, even the Wildlings within the confines of their own social order follow leaders. Tribes have chiefs, their own laws and such. It is true that the Wildlings have a notorious individualists notions, they tend to follow people who can beat them as opposed to following someone because they were born of a certain person and such, but the Wildlings follow leaders pretty much the same as the people of Westeros follow their leaders, the two societies just have different ways of determining who is in charge is all.

Mance ain't dying for freedom, he ain't that noble and selfless, there is something else going on. Mance could have achieved all his goals by accepting Stannis' offer, but there are probably some Wildlings that aren't so keen with that line. The Wildlings would have had their own house and live pretty much under their own laws if they wanted but Mance has to navigate a large number of varying dynamic individualist factions so it wouldn't do for him to come out accepting Stannis' offer outright. So he's played another line instead.
We'll see soon enough and you'll get it. Though Mance is a crafty sort, he might have been playing his own Game of Thrones.

Even though the Wildlings are currently united, everyone knows there are certain Wildling groups that all the rest of the Free Folk know full well that its not a good idea to live next to. A certain cannibalistic Wildling tribe comes to mind for example, no one, even Mance wants those fuckers around for very long let alone trying to live with them side by side. Those types of Wildlings are tolerated for the moment but as soon as the Free Folk get to safety they'll wipe that particular tribe out, as well as a few other groups. How's that for "Freedom", eh? There are certain Wildlings that even Wildlings hate after all. Wildlings for all their freedom bullshit ain't too keen on the live and let live when it comes to certain other Free Folk freedoms.

Mance is way more pragmatic than to buy into that Free Folk bullshit, but he has to play a part to get what he wanted. The real trick is wondering how the hell he was planning to reach his goals by letting himself get burned at the stake. Mance ain't no heroic figure, that's for sure.

[betiko]

just a thought... but when you're bunred alive by the red sorceress... don't you come back to life in some way? Did Jon f*ck up that process by killing him with that arrow?

Maybe you're right about Mance, but if it's the case that's the dumbest shit ever. Sure they hate the crows... but as the wildlings managed to be pragmatic among tribes... wouldn't the best move for them have been to talk to the group of crows they captured beyond the wall, make them aware of the iminent aproach of the others and unite their forces on the wall against them? instead of breaking through their solid defense and make casualties on both sides when a bigger danger is comming? Just saying... but it's retarded in the first place. A guy like jon Snow would've linked perfectly Mance to the former lord commander Mormont FFS.

Also while Jon was among them you could hear them claim many times how they beleived the north was their land and that it had been taken away from them... and that they have tried to invade it several times. It's not just about the others...

next episode spoiler alert

Spoiler

How the f*ck did melissandre told jon snow "you know nothing jon snow" when he refused to f*ck her?
A. as a sorceress, she had visions of their relationship
B. a simple wink by the producers of the show
C. she has some conection with Ygritte?

[strike wolf]

The idea that it was just about The Others is fallacious. Mance was a Nights atchman. He even had a chance to be named Lord Commander before he turned rogue and he turned rogue because he wanted more freedom. He learned about the dangers from The Others later.

As for aligning with The Nights Watch. It wouldnt work. Even assuming that Mance was able to convince them that The White Walkers were the real threat (dificult if no one has seen them). There are people of The Nights Watch that still would never go along with cooperating with the wildlings and wildlings who wouldnt get along with the Crows no matter what. Mance had picked his side and he cant go back on it.

As for bending the knee, he is right and wrong. The Free Folk would never have followed him if they suspected he had sold them out but it has a better shot of getting cooperation than becoming a martyr for freedom and not cooperating.

Finally, no. Using fire does not help Mellisandre bring them back to life. They simply act as sacrificies strengthening her power. Its possible that she can bring someone back to life but I think the only person around who we know can do this is that guy with Beric Dondarion.

[betiko]

The idea that it was just about The Others is fallacious. Mance was a Nights atchman. He even had a chance to be named Lord Commander before he turned rogue and he turned rogue because he wanted more freedom. He learned about the dangers from The Others later.

As for aligning with The Nights Watch. It wouldnt work. Even assuming that Mance was able to convince them that The White Walkers were the real threat (dificult if no one has seen them). There are people of The Nights Watch that still would never go along with cooperating with the wildlings and wildlings who wouldnt get along with the Crows no matter what. Mance had picked his side and he cant go back on it.

As for bending the knee, he is right and wrong. The Free Folk would never have followed him if they suspected he had sold them out but it has a better shot of getting cooperation than becoming a martyr for freedom and not cooperating.

Finally, no. Using fire does not help Mellisandre bring them back to life. They simply act as sacrificies strengthening her power. Its possible that she can bring someone back to life but I think the only person around who we know can do this is that guy with Beric Dondarion.

of course many of the crows have seen the others.... sam has even killed one! and all the older guys know stories about the white walkers and know it's an incomming threat. Maybe the younger crows might think they are old man stories.... but I don't think that making the night's watch aware of the incomming white walkers attack would be something crazy and unachievable.

[waauw]

So anybody seen ep 5 yet? the ending of it was fun
Can't believe Stanis is walking on Winterfell so fast though

[betiko]

So anybody seen ep 5 yet? the ending of it was fun
Can't believe Stanis is walking on Winterfell so fast though

I saw that you posted in this thread today and didn't dare to open it before watching episode 5. Damn, that was a long break as I had watched the first 4 when they leaked.
I quite enjoyed this episode.

Damn that scene in winterfeld with reek, sansa, bolton and ramsay was pretty awesome! Bolton is really an odd character!

I didn't really get what that desease jorah at the end gets. It makes you go mental and rot till death, with no cure possible basically?

[got tonkaed]

It is the same disease shireen has, greyscale. Turns you into a GOT zombie. Pretty difficult to cure, pretty much can only stop the progression and they were only able to do it for her cause Stannis is serious business.

[betiko]

It is the same disease shireen has, greyscale. Turns you into a GOT zombie. Pretty difficult to cure, pretty much can only stop the progression and they were only able to do it for her cause Stannis is serious business.

ah ok thanks, makes sense. i didn't know that what shireen has was still a spreading desease that had to be cured on a regular basis... I thought it was something she was born with and that as an infant they managed to save her from it, and after that, she basically only had the scars left...

[got tonkaed]

Well that is almost what happened. It is an infectious disease that is super hard to cure, so essentially most people dont get cured.

Shireen ended up getting a toy doll that caused her to get the infection and Stannis basically did everything in the world to get the disease stopped. He was successful because he is serious nobility, but it still left scars. The average person cant scour the earth for every possible treatment, so the end up watching the infection spread until they become a stone man.

[betiko]

Well that is almost what happened. It is an infectious disease that is super hard to cure, so essentially most people dont get cured.

Shireen ended up getting a toy doll that caused her to get the infection and Stannis basically did everything in the world to get the disease stopped. He was successful because he is serious nobility, but it still left scars. The average person cant scour the earth for every possible treatment, so the end up watching the infection spread until they become a stone man.

who gave that doll to shireen? Stannis explained this to shireen an epsode or 2 ago... not sure he mentioned anything about a doll? could this be a sort of conspiracy against stannis that happened shortly after she was born?

[got tonkaed]

I thought from the show Stannis had said he bought it as a gift or something, but someone else probably could do better with answering that.

[betiko]

So from what I've heard from book readers, it was never sansa who got to marry ramsey.
Gosh, sansa's life is such a long listing of misery.

By the way... no sign of bran or rickion in this season 5... I think we haven't seen rickion in almost all season 4. I used to like bran's character, I hope he shows up this season.

And John Snow going to see the wildlings on his own, this sounds like an awfully stupid move. Don't think they will forgive him. But maybe the others will already be there...

[waauw]

So from what I've heard from book readers, it was never sansa who got to marry ramsey.
Gosh, sansa's life is such a long listing of misery.

By the way... no sign of bran or rickion in this season 5... I think we haven't seen rickion in almost all season 4. I used to like bran's character, I hope he shows up this season.

And John Snow going to see the wildlings on his own, this sounds like an awfully stupid move. Don't think they will forgive him. But maybe the others will already be there...

According to the books, all of Bran's happenings of last season should've happened this season so I've got absolutely no idea what they're going do with him this season. As for Rickon there were hints in the last book that he would appear at some point, though it's hard to say especially considering the show doesn't follow the books as strictly anymore and the show moves at a much speedier pace.

So yeah I'm at the tip of my chair for Rickon Stark. The only reason the Bolton's hold influence over the north is because they hold Sansa hostage and there is no male Stark to contest her authority to the north. It goes without saying that if Rickon were to suddenly show up it would mean a major shift in Westeros politics.