Top 10 Clans of All Time

[Arama86n]

Top clans of all time:

1. S&M
2. TOFU
3. ?


(Anyone who wants to put TOFU at #5 or worse (as has been done in this thread)... just gets a huge smile from me, and absolutely no comment at all. )

As of today that is my opinion. Personally I think this cup is important for our legacy after last years disappointment.
If we win, that really puts us in clear contention for the best clan of all time.
If we lose against FOED now, that... uh.. I prefer to focus on the thought of us winning that
If we reach the final, and lose against S&M; that cements the above 1-2 for me.

If FALL wins, that would be cause for reflection. But even a win doesn't put them ahead of us (or S&M obviously) in a "of all time" context.
We'd [TOFU and FALL] be tied with two wins each and two second places in the cup (provided we don't take a second place this year, in which case we lead in the cup too) But our CL win puts us ahead. Not counting the fact that we've been around longer on a highly competitive stage. Hell, we were arguably stronger than S&M when they won CC1 (you all know the story) for example.
But if FALL wins this year, that puts them within reach of taking the #2 of all time title in the near future.

If LHDD, FOED or anyone else wins that's very interesting, but not cause to redraw that T-5 of all time list that much imo.

If FALL do well in this cup, it becomes:

...of all time:
1.) S&M
2.) TOFU
3.) FALL

[iAmCaffeine]

Personally I don't see the top three changing from S&M, TOFU and THOTA for a long time, whatever order you put them. After that you have the likes of FALL, TSM, EMP/ACE, LHDD, FOED, OSA etc again in no order.

[rockfist]

I have Fallen 4th. I suspect LHDD may make a strong run at the cup this year, which would make 4th an argument in my mind. Its not just about the Cup or the League - its mostly about those things, but I think time in the top rankings comes into play (if I thought time in the top rankings was the most important factor I would have us ahead of S&M - note that I do not). I do think that Fallen winning the Cup this year would elevate them over THOTA in my mind and would give them the same number of cups as us, but based on the time in the top rankings and one league victory, I would say they would remain behind us. These are some of my thoughts, and although they are only my opinion, I don't think they are any less valid than any other opinion.

[Donelladan]

Personally I don't see the top three changing from S&M, TOFU and THOTA for a long time, whatever order you put them. After that you have the likes of FALL, TSM, EMP/ACE, LHDD, FOED, OSA etc again in no order.

I have been reading this thread for a while, and have been hearing about Thota since even longer.
First, how comes you that join CC in 2013 think Thota should be in top 3 ?
Second, ( I am ready to be lynched) I've looked at Thota record. Really not impressive imho. Everyone is totally overrating their achievement.

Sure I wasn't there when they were active, my first clan game was in 2012 and Thota last war was in December 2011.
I am just drawing conclusions from what I can see, here are my facts :

Couple of quote on Thota from this thread

2. THOTA - The Clan to beat until KORT did it.

When I entered CC, THOTA wasn't the clan to beat. It was the clan you couldn't beat. That doesn't apply to KoRT, but they reign in a different time.

The only reason THOTA was the most imposing was because they had all the good players and were the one and only clan back then.

My take on this is that Thota were undoubtedly the best for their time. However their time came before the clan scene exploded and competition became stronger.

Well, first, I don't think being the best when there is no competition is any kind of achievement. Which is what I understand from the quote above.
If I want to compare it with tennis, it's only so nice to see Federer playing because he has Nadal and Djokovic to face.
Watching Federer playing against any player out of top 10 isn't really interesting. He beat them but there is no match so you can't say Federer is amazing by watching those. If you don't have great competitor, you can't show how good you are.
So if Thota was undefeated at a time there was no one even able to face them, how can you say there were really strong ?

Then, looking at their record,( which I am assuming is complete), what did they do ?
They won 11 wars straight. They were the only clan undefeated, unbeatable, "the clan to beat', but they were the only clan undefeated also because they were active when clan world just started. And ok they were undefeated for 4 years, but it's only 11 wars.

Just looking at the numbers, KorT won 14 wars straight.
Pack won 12 wars straight.

If you look at the only major title they won ( because being inactive afterwards i get that), it's the CL1, they won it winning 65,6% of their game. If you look at the winner of the clan league aftewards, most of them are close to similar number( only check 3 leagues). LHDD won CL7 for example winning 63,6% of their match.

Thus it doesn't look to me like THOTA was dominating that much. Winning 65,6% of their match is a great score, winning the CL1 an achievement, but they weren't that much better that the other clans like some of you seems to say.

I understand they marked their time because they were one of the first clans, and they were the best clan for four years. Not saying they don't deserve to be in the top 10 clans of all time.
Just seems to me people are exaggerating their achievement.

[Arama86n]

It's difficult to compare THOTA to the modern top-clans.
On the whole, I agree with you. It's why I didn't mention them. And It's actually why I've mostly stayed out of this thread until now.

[rockfist]

I guess the question for me is, what has another clan done, that is greater than THOTA's one championship and four year reign at the top?

S&M - 7 championships and multiple streaks at #1 and within the top 3, or top 5, including very long runs at both - no problem, shoe in.

TOFU - 3 championships, longest streak at #1, within the top 3 and within the top 5, four straight years in the finals of CC also only lost once to the non champion of CC, maybe a bit less of a case, but still 3 beats one.

Fallen - 1 championship, decent time at #1, long runs in the top 3 and top 5. Very competitive within CL and three years in a row in the finals of CC. That's a good resume. IMO one more finals and they are clearly ahead of THOTA.

I respect what LHDD and FOED have done but IMO right now - I don't see their resume topping THOTA. If either of them wins CC this year, it immediately vaults them into that comparison IMO.

[niMic]

I agree with rockfist. I wouldn't put THOTA at the top anymore (I reserve #1 and #2 for S&M and TOFU), but they were the clan. And it wasn't because no other clans existed. More than that, it was almost like they were the only professionals and the rest of us were amateurs. These days a lot of clans probably operate like THOTA did then (although I was never in THOTA, so I might be talking out of my ass). They aren't "the best of all time" anymore, but top 5 certainly.

[joecoolfrog]

I agree with rockfist. I wouldn't put THOTA at the top anymore (I reserve #1 and #2 for S&M and TOFU), but they were the clan. And it wasn't because no other clans existed. More than that, it was almost like they were the only professionals and the rest of us were amateurs. These days a lot of clans probably operate like THOTA did then (although I was never in THOTA, so I might be talking out of my ass). They aren't "the best of all time" anymore, but top 5 certainly.

This sums it up perfectly , there were plenty of other clans around at the time but THOTA set a new standard, in my view they created the template for other clans to follow. They dominated the clan scene to a degree nobody else has managed, thats how they should be measured.

[trapyoung]

The beginning and end of the conversation should be Double Rainbow Society.

[emilywink]

easy peasy question

1. TOP
2. TOFU
3. S&M
4. THOTA

[Arama86n]

easy peasy question

1. TOP
2. TOFU
3. S&M
4. THOTA

Someone call a doctor please, Ms Wink is unwell, and she is so dear to us all.
Doc_Brown, a full examination please.

[niMic]

easy peasy question

1. TOP
2. TOFU
3. S&M
4. THOTA

emily, give us a sign where the kidnapper has taken you.

Was it PaulatPeace?

[shocked439]

Thota has to be number 1. They set the standard for what those odd fellows and the cows are able to do now.

1-thota
2-tofu
3-cows

[emilywink]

but really i don't know too much of the history with clans on CC, and at the time of thota i wasn't paying any attention to the clan world.

for me it is just S&M and TOFU as the best and i don't think i could put one above the other. that's just based on casual observations of what i see these two clans do time after time and most reliably in their wars. i think it would be unlikely that past clans would be able to compete against either but of course it's very possible. i know there are a lot of other really good clans now, and maybe there are arguments for putting other clans in the conversation too that i might be able to appreciate more if i paid closer attention.

i would be really surprised if there is another clan that could play TOFU or S&M in 10 wars and win 6 of them.

[redhawk92]

the farmers guild back over 10 years ago had all the top players. didnt really work the same back then. honorable mention?

[IcePack]

This hasn't been debated, updated or posted about in awhile, so figured I would mess around with a bit of a ranking system

IcePack's Clan Scores [Note the several different tabs]

iScores...? Maybe, idk

Anyway I did a rough estimate of each event based on perceived difficulty, avg number of entrants, general level of competition, luck influence etc and gave that a point value for placements. Then, I created a chart of all clan events and assigned those points to each clan. There were a few exceptions to the "score breakdown" per events, mainly based on lack of information now, or some were slightly unique and didn't follow their regular format so I gave Top 3 instead of Top 4, etc.

Also note: CL2, CL3, CL4, RL2, and the Clan League Trophy Event have not been fully scored beyond the top 2 / finishers listed on the Clan Event Trophy thread....So there could be minor changes in different clan scores. This was because lack of information / accessibility of information in the old threads and ran out of time to reproduce my own charts of the full Top 5's etc.

Then I just created a new tab, sorted the points into a ranking of sorts and therefore, here is "my" new Top 10 (IDK if I even agree with it, just thought it was an interesting excersize)

Rank Points Clans

1 121 S&M / KORT
2 99 TOFU
3 85 FALL
4 81 FOED
5 68 LHDD
6 59 OSA
7 46 LOW
8 33.5 ACE
9 22 IA
10 20 THOTA

Note: There are 52 clans that have min 1 point (out of 118 clans), so I was going to show the rest of the Top 50 but here is the rest of the Top 52:

11 20 TOP
12 19 AFOS
13 18 TSM
14 18 PACK
15 17 ATL
16 17 EMP
17 16 ID
18 15 AOC
19 14 MD
20 10 RET
21 9 BotFM
22 8.5 PIG
23 8 DYN
24 7.5 TNC
25 7 SOH
26 6 RA
27 6 VNM / HH
28 6 ATN
29 6 BPB
30 5 OLE / LEG
31 4 GR
32 4 MYTH
33 4 OTP
34 3 GON
35 3 NEM
36 3 TFFS
37 2 KNT
38 2 ASC
39 2 AQOH
40 2 MM
41 1.5 VVV
42 1 VDLL
43 1 LOTZ
44 1 DBD
45 1 1RFG
46 1 AKA
47 1 FSC
48 1 IGNI
49 1 KOA
50 1 RGV
51 1 SC
52 1 UM8

[rockfist]

That’s a lot of work!

One thing that I don’t see is time at number one ranking, while I’ve said before that S&M should have the number one ranking of all time I believe that our large amounts of time holding the number one ranking narrows the gap some. That’s my opinion. I don’t know how you account for that...maybe 10,8,6,4,3,2,1 for number of weeks at number one? Maybe the clan world disagrees with that, but I don’t think it’s something I’ve conjured out of whole cloth.

[IcePack]

That’s a lot of work!

One thing that I don’t see is time at number one ranking, while I’ve said before that S&M should have the number one ranking of all time I believe that our large amounts of time holding the number one ranking narrows the gap some. That’s my opinion. I don’t know how you account for that...maybe 10,8,6,4,3,2,1 for number of weeks at number one? Maybe the clan world disagrees with that, but I don’t think it’s something I’ve conjured out of whole cloth.

Interesting thought, though rankings have a lot to do with these same events so it would be a bit like double dipping? The only thing this doesn’t consider are pick up wars, which for most of the for clans of high rank, is pretty few / far between.

I like the thought and interesting way to add an out of the box element, just my initial reaction doesn’t know how not to double dip it compared with the rest of this scoring method already is considering

[rockfist]

To some degree it does, but if its worth 10,8,6,4,3,2,1, I don't know that it "overvalues it".

(I'm not a baseball guy, but I'm a bit of a sports nut so bear with me)...what I am trying to point out is - who is a better team the Florida Marlins (two championships but largely noncompetitive otherwise) or the Atlanta Braves (one championship but an annual contender)? I think most people would say the Braves were better.

Peaking at the right time to win competitions is its own reward but being at a sustained high level is worthy of recognition too.

[betiko]

Honestly, I can hardly see how fall and foed could be better ranked than lhdd with all due respect to both clans... mostly foed.
I mean both fall and lhdd have won a cc cup and a premier division, but not foed... 3 cc finals for fall 1 win, 2 cc finals for lhdd 1 win, 1 cc final for foed no win.
Also, no clan has won as much diversity of clan events as we did, including every major and mid tier event involving 10+ clans.

What you did sounds like a lot of work, but not really sure how you chose your parameters. In my opinion, we should be #3 but I'm tooting my own flute

[IcePack]

To some degree it does, but if its worth 10,8,6,4,3,2,1, I don't know that it "overvalues it".

(I'm not a baseball guy, but I'm a bit of a sports nut so bear with me)...what I am trying to point out is - who is a better team the Florida Marlins (two championships but largely noncompetitive otherwise) or the Atlanta Braves (one championship but an annual contender)? I think most people would say the Braves were better.

Peaking at the right time to win competitions is its own reward but being at a sustained high level is worthy of recognition too.

I mean, I fully agree. But that’s why I’ve set it where you’re earning points for top 8 in cup events, top 5’s in leagues, top 3’s and 4’a elsewhere for the smaller stuff.

That staying power is being rewarded with points under the system already. The only thing this system doesn’t give you points for is 1) low level results (IE participation of events unless you get to a certain threshold) and 2) pick up wars.

Everything else is already encapsulated here

Honestly, I can hardly see how fall and foed could be better ranked than lhdd with all due respect to both clans... mostly foed.
I mean both fall and lhdd have won a cc cup and a premier division, but not foed... 3 cc finals for fall 1 win, 2 cc finals for lhdd 1 win, 1 cc final for foed no win.
Also, no clan has won as much diversity of clan events as we did, including every major and mid tier event involving 10+ clans.

What you did sounds like a lot of work, but not really sure how you chose your parameters. In my opinion, we should be #3 but I'm tooting my own flute

Yeah idk where my person opinion lands on who is where, tbh I haven’t thought about it for at least a few years. This excersize was not meant to reinforce any personal bias of my own, but rather I set up the scoring criteria, got feedback from a few people on tweaking the point values, and then went to work scoring the events.

Tbh I was a little surprised LHDD wasn’t higher (or at least, closer). But again it sort of encompasses the staying power, FOED is old participates in a lot of events and gets in the upper tier regularly. LHDD for as much as it has accomplished (a lot) and how good they are right now, there was a period where you guys struggled. Went to 2nd div multiple times, etc. not as consistent, like rockfist mentioned.

If you go by titles and achievements, for sure LHDD is in the upper end of that discussion. Again, it was an interesting thought / excersize to see beyond the titles and opinions of everyone trying to come up with a scoring system that covers how clans have performed overall in the events from the start as a different way to view the top 10.

[MTIceman41]

Pretty spot on...passes eye test. Lhdd will push forward longer they stay dominant...and maybe if they produce better wine and cheese like in California that will help their cause.

Love looking at some of these old clans...some great battles, banter...golden years of CC

Ps Myth should be ahead of GR...other then that all looks good

[IcePack]

Honestly, I can hardly see how fall and foed could be better ranked than lhdd with all due respect to both clans... mostly foed.
I mean both fall and lhdd have won a cc cup and a premier division, but not foed... 3 cc finals for fall 1 win, 2 cc finals for lhdd 1 win, 1 cc final for foed no win.
Also, no clan has won as much diversity of clan events as we did, including every major and mid tier event involving 10+ clans.

What you did sounds like a lot of work, but not really sure how you chose your parameters. In my opinion, we should be #3 but I'm tooting my own flute

Not saying right or wrong but since lunch was boring at work, I did a better direct comparison (look at the tab “direct comparison”) this provides results based breakdown for the 3 clans mentioned (FALL/FOED/LHDD).

It provides better details. Looks like FALL has more success in the majors overall, FOED has lots more success in the minors than the other two, but LHDD has more high level success when it does score.

Again, lots of little interesting things show when broken down. Combined FOED has more scoring opportunities, FALL close behind, with LHDD last but again when you do score it’s very well.

Kinda meets the eye test, you guys have highs and lows that I mentioned. When you’re on it you are very hard to beat, but also your low points are lower than the other clans in comparison. FOEDs just produced lots of results over a sustained period, and FALL has kept up ok in most events but has more top 3’s and such in big events.

[ZaBeast]

Something I believe is missing is how these points were acquired over time. If it's not too hard to add, I'd love to have a graph of the score over time of the top clans. I think showing this trend would allow for a fairer comparison for the clans that didn't participate in all the events (either because they started later or because they died at some point). For instance I assume THOTA's score would be much higher had they kept existing, and a graph (by its slope) would convey that much better than just a number. It would also show which clans were consistently good and which had ups and downs.

[IcePack]

Something I believe is missing is how these points were acquired over time. If it's not too hard to add, I'd love to have a graph of the score over time of the top clans. I think showing this trend would allow for a fairer comparison for the clans that didn't participate in all the events (either because they started later or because they died at some point). For instance I assume THOTA's score would be much higher had they kept existing, and a graph (by its slope) would convey that much better than just a number. It would also show which clans were consistently good and which had ups and downs.

Hmm. I’m not sure exactly how that graphing would work. Point totals wouldn’t slowly rise in most cases but spike when each event concluded. Unlike F400 etc those matches each adjust points minimally, here the points are only earned upon event completions. There’s no “down” periods either, it would just plateau when no points are being earned. Also wouldn’t indicate whether they participated or not, just whether they earned any positional points.

It’s not impossible, but I’m not entirely sure the effort would pay off...suppose if I get another really dead day or get quarantined or something I might play around with the idea