Neoteny wrote:That first paragraph is a mess. Why anyone would look to Forbes for a reasonable discussion of socialism is beyond me. It's like seeing James Comey giving election advice to Democrats. It's not in good faith, and, even if it were, he clearly doesn't have a fucking clue what he's talking about.
jacobinmag wrote:The Scandinavian countries are what we call “social democracies,” societies with robust social safety nets and labor movements that check the worst tendencies of capitalism and limit the power of the wealthy in key ways.
Over the course of the twentieth century, workers in these countries won full employment, a strong welfare state, and high levels of unionization. But they never successfully challenged the source of capitalist class power: their ownership rights over the major national corporations.
As a result, in the last thirty or so years, a reinvigorated capitalist class in these countries has led a persistent and successful campaign to roll back these progressive achievements. These failed progressive experiments show that our democratic socialist vision has to go far beyond the narrow limits that today’s newly minted socialism experts on cable news will allow.
jacobinmag wrote:That will mean nationalizing the financial sector so that major investment decisions are made by democratically elected governments and removing hostile elements in the military and police. It will mean introducing democratic planning and social ownership over corporations (though the correct mix of state-led planning and “market socialism,” a mix of publicly-owned firms, small privately-owned businesses, and worker cooperatives, is a matter of some debate in our movement). And it will mean rebuilding our democracy by instituting public financing of elections, a ban on corporate lobbying and private campaign donations, and even more radical demands like writing a new constitution.
Neoteny wrote:That first paragraph is a mess. Why anyone would look to Forbes for a reasonable discussion of socialism is beyond me. It's like seeing James Comey giving election advice to Democrats. It's not in good faith, and, even if it were, he clearly doesn't have a fucking clue what he's talking about.
Neoteny wrote:That first paragraph is a mess. Why anyone would look to Forbes for a reasonable discussion of socialism is beyond me. It's like seeing James Comey giving election advice to Democrats. It's not in good faith, and, even if it were, he clearly doesn't have a fucking clue what he's talking about.
Neoteny wrote:That first paragraph is a mess. Why anyone would look to Forbes for a reasonable discussion of socialism is beyond me. It's like seeing James Comey giving election advice to Democrats. It's not in good faith, and, even if it were, he clearly doesn't have a fucking clue what he's talking about.
Neoteny wrote:That first paragraph is a mess. Why anyone would look to Forbes for a reasonable discussion of socialism is beyond me. It's like seeing James Comey giving election advice to Democrats. It's not in good faith, and, even if it were, he clearly doesn't have a fucking clue what he's talking about.
Just quoting from what I believe is the preeminent socialist magazine in the United States. One that Noam Chomsky called "a bright line in dark times." I think it can be relied upon to show what American socialists want is not what Scandinavian socialists have. Hopefully someone who is an American socialist (like Neoteny) can tell us whether this is a reliable source or not rather than have an avowed capitalist (me) and a non-American (you) determine whether it is reliable.
By the way, the broken link page is great: "PAGE NOT FOUND Has your neighbor been sending you counter-revolutionary links?" Awesome.
Neoteny wrote:That first paragraph is a mess. Why anyone would look to Forbes for a reasonable discussion of socialism is beyond me. It's like seeing James Comey giving election advice to Democrats. It's not in good faith, and, even if it were, he clearly doesn't have a fucking clue what he's talking about.
Just quoting from what I believe is the preeminent socialist magazine in the United States. One that Noam Chomsky called "a bright line in dark times." I think it can be relied upon to show what American socialists want is not what Scandinavian socialists have. Hopefully someone who is an American socialist (like Neoteny) can tell us whether this is a reliable source or not rather than have an avowed capitalist (me) and a non-American (you) determine whether it is reliable.
By the way, the broken link page is great: "PAGE NOT FOUND Has your neighbor been sending you counter-revolutionary links?" Awesome.
Cool beans, when you quote from it reliably, get your crew together. I want to be called "Ghost". Neoteny needs a cooler nickname. I'm thinking "Red", but that seems a little obvious. Obviously TheGreekDog doesn't work either. Your nickname is now "Symmetry".
When this all goes down, Symmetry goes in and pulls a reliable source. Red, you support him, and watch for broken links. Ghost (Me) gets everyone out safe.
Let's get this done people. TGD defining socialism isn't a one man job.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
It's weird that it's not there anymore, but that guillotine is fun. I don't think I've ever come across something they've just removed and not left some sort of notice for. I wonder if something is just broken. Waybaaaaaack.
I'd agree they're your standard for American leftist journalism. They are overall probably a bit left of current DSA stances, and have their blind spots (I've seen criticism that their coverage in South America is not particularly stellar, but what American journalist is really?).
And yes, Norway is not the socialist endgame, though it is certainly much much better than what we have. We'd take it if it were the only alternative.
Napoleon Ier wrote:You people need to grow up to be honest.
Neoteny wrote:It's weird that it's not there anymore, but that guillotine is fun. I don't think I've ever come across something they've just removed and not left some sort of notice for. I wonder if something is just broken. Waybaaaaaack.
I'd agree they're your standard for American leftist journalism. They are overall probably a bit left of current DSA stances, and have their blind spots (I've seen criticism that their coverage in South America is not particularly stellar, but what American journalist is really?).
And yes, Norway is not the socialist endgame, though it is certainly much much better than what we have. We'd take it if it were the only alternative.
Thanks.
Symmetry - See above. Hopefully you and Neo can have some witty repartee about the definitions of socialism and reliable sources.
Neoteny wrote:It's weird that it's not there anymore, but that guillotine is fun. I don't think I've ever come across something they've just removed and not left some sort of notice for. I wonder if something is just broken. Waybaaaaaack.
I'd agree they're your standard for American leftist journalism. They are overall probably a bit left of current DSA stances, and have their blind spots (I've seen criticism that their coverage in South America is not particularly stellar, but what American journalist is really?).
And yes, Norway is not the socialist endgame, though it is certainly much much better than what we have. We'd take it if it were the only alternative.
Thanks.
Symmetry - See above. Hopefully you and Neo can have some witty repartee about the definitions of socialism and reliable sources.
Don't use our real names, Symmetry. I'll talk it over with Red.
Ghost out
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
