Stabbing / Shooting in Self Defense (Legality)

[jimboston]

Jim is definitely one of the reasons gun control groups are such a success.

Jim being interviewed:

Except gun control groups aren’t having success.

So ummm…

[jimboston]

I have Umbrella Insurance…. hopefully that would help.

Keep hoping!
-->
https://www.policygenius.com/homeowners ... f-defense/

I’ll have to look into my Umbrella Policy. The Umbrella BTW, is sometimes tied to the Hime Insurance but it can be an entirely different policy. So your link isn’t really relevant.

Also wouldn’t me accidental shooting an intruder in the middle of the night when he surprised me with a knife be an accident?

“I didn’t mean to kill him, but when he charged me I was startled and my finger accidentally pulled the trigger.”

[bigtoughralf]

Also wouldn’t me accidental shooting an intruder in the middle of the night when he surprised me with a knife be an accident?

“I didn’t mean to kill him, but when he charged me I was startled and my finger accidentally pulled the trigger.”

Between this and 'couldn't I just finish off an injured burglar then tell the police he was attacking me', remind me never to be represented by you in a criminal trial.

[Dukasaur]

Stand your ground leads to unecessary violence.

You wake up in the middle of the night. Someone is in your house. You reach into your nightstand and pull out your Colt .38. You rush out into the hallway and see a shadowy figure moving toward you. With only a tenth of a second to make a decision, there's no time for any "hark, who goes there?" theatrics. You pull the trigger.

Some possible outcomes:

1. The shadowy figure is an experienced killer. The slug from his gun rips into your aorta before you finish squeezing your trigger. Bam, you're dead.
2. In your groggy state, you forgot the safety was still on. The shadowy figure didn't have a gun, but he's good with his fists. After he beats the shit out of you, he takes your gun and adds it to his pile of loot. You're lucky he didn't shoot you.
3. You blast the shadowy figure straight to hell. Upon investigation, it turns out it was a local wino. He was looking for a place to sleep and you forgot to lock your back door. Just a wino, no big loss to society, but you good do you feel about killing him?
4. The shadowy figure is a real criminal. You've killed him, and it's a good thing. He deserves to die. But you forgot about his two henchmen. You're not Lee van Cleef -- before the first one hits the ground, the others have already unloaded on you. They step over your body and proceed to go rape your wife.

I could go on and on. But the list of bad outcomes is infinite.

Run away and chances are nobody will chase you. Yeah, you'll lose some money. But you'll live.

1) You would be killed either way… regardless of the law. A warning just gives him MORE advantage.
Nope. If you run away, chances are good that he will neither pursue you nor shoot you. Even habitual criminals don't usually kill for no reason at all. Waving your gun at him was what provoked him to shoot.

2) Again… if you warn him what happens? He still beats you.
Again, if you run away, chances are he will neither.... <etc.>

3) Wino dead, NBD. f*ck him, he shouldn’t have been in my house. Just the act of him winding up in my house is a threat to myself and my family. If he’s so drunk he doesn’t know/comprehend he’s committing a violent act by entering a home that’s not his… who’s to say he wouldn’t be so drunk to do something more violent? You say “just a local wino”… I say a threat and a drain on society.
Maybe. Or maybe this was a surgeon who has saved 1000 lives, but he took to drink and his life completely collapsed after his wife ran away with his best friend. Then again, maybe he really is a completely worthless piece of shit. I guarantee in the real event you wouldn't be as cavalier about it as you are now.

4) Again.. if there are 3 I’d be at a big disadvantage anyway. At least with a ‘Stand Your Ground” I can attack without warning and have a better chance. If I gave a warning… what happens? They tie me up and rape my wife? I’d rather die going down fighting and maybe have a chance.
Maybe if you and your wife stayed in your room and quitly called 911 they wouldn't even bother coming upstairs. Burglars are generally just trying to find money or easily converted valuables. Violence is almost always an afterthought.

[saxitoxin]

I have Umbrella Insurance…. hopefully that would help.

Keep hoping!
-->
https://www.policygenius.com/homeowners ... f-defense/

I’ll have to look into my Umbrella Policy. The Umbrella BTW, is sometimes tied to the Hime Insurance but it can be an entirely different policy. So your link isn’t really relevant.

Also wouldn’t me accidental shooting an intruder in the middle of the night when he surprised me with a knife be an accident?

“I didn’t mean to kill him, but when he charged me I was startled and my finger accidentally pulled the trigger.”

I'm 99% sure your umbrella policy would hang you out to dry.

I pay $9/month for a USLS policy which provides coverage for legal fees for criminal and civil defense for a negligent discharge or self-defense incident (not just involving firearms). The drawback is you have to be represented by one of their attorneys. I think it's good to have anytime you own firearms, particularly in an oppressive anti-gun state. I even have it and there's zero chance I'd ever use a gun for anything other than sport shooting since I never concealed carry and, at home, I keep them unloaded with trigger locks (so it would be impossible for me to even access them in time if I actually needed for self-defense).

[jimboston]

Stand your ground leads to unecessary violence.

You wake up in the middle of the night. Someone is in your house. You reach into your nightstand and pull out your Colt .38. You rush out into the hallway and see a shadowy figure moving toward you. With only a tenth of a second to make a decision, there's no time for any "hark, who goes there?" theatrics. You pull the trigger.

Some possible outcomes:

1. The shadowy figure is an experienced killer. The slug from his gun rips into your aorta before you finish squeezing your trigger. Bam, you're dead.
2. In your groggy state, you forgot the safety was still on. The shadowy figure didn't have a gun, but he's good with his fists. After he beats the shit out of you, he takes your gun and adds it to his pile of loot. You're lucky he didn't shoot you.
3. You blast the shadowy figure straight to hell. Upon investigation, it turns out it was a local wino. He was looking for a place to sleep and you forgot to lock your back door. Just a wino, no big loss to society, but you good do you feel about killing him?
4. The shadowy figure is a real criminal. You've killed him, and it's a good thing. He deserves to die. But you forgot about his two henchmen. You're not Lee van Cleef -- before the first one hits the ground, the others have already unloaded on you. They step over your body and proceed to go rape your wife.

I could go on and on. But the list of bad outcomes is infinite.

Run away and chances are nobody will chase you. Yeah, you'll lose some money. But you'll live.

1) You would be killed either way… regardless of the law. A warning just gives him MORE advantage.
Nope. If you run away, chances are good that he will neither pursue you nor shoot you. Even habitual criminals don't usually kill for no reason at all. Waving your gun at him was what provoked him to shoot.

2) Again… if you warn him what happens? He still beats you.
Again, if you run away, chances are he will neither.... <etc.>

3) Wino dead, NBD. f*ck him, he shouldn’t have been in my house. Just the act of him winding up in my house is a threat to myself and my family. If he’s so drunk he doesn’t know/comprehend he’s committing a violent act by entering a home that’s not his… who’s to say he wouldn’t be so drunk to do something more violent? You say “just a local wino”… I say a threat and a drain on society.
Maybe. Or maybe this was a surgeon who has saved 1000 lives, but he took to drink and his life completely collapsed after his wife ran away with his best friend. Then again, maybe he really is a completely worthless piece of shit. I guarantee in the real event you wouldn't be as cavalier about it as you are now.

4) Again.. if there are 3 I’d be at a big disadvantage anyway. At least with a ‘Stand Your Ground” I can attack without warning and have a better chance. If I gave a warning… what happens? They tie me up and rape my wife? I’d rather die going down fighting and maybe have a chance.
Maybe if you and your wife stayed in your room and quitly called 911 they wouldn't even bother coming upstairs. Burglars are generally just trying to find money or easily converted valuables. Violence is almost always an afterthought.

In all these scenarios you are relying on the GOOD WILL and morals of someone who has violently violated your personal property and entered your sanctuary in the middle of the night. There’s no way of knowing if the person/people are there “just to take your hard earned possessions” or if they are there to rape and torture your family. THERE IS NO WAY OF KNOWING THIS. Given that, and given the state of the world… the possibility that the person/people are drug addicts and therefore unpredictable… the wisest course of action is to assert control of the situation.

Yeah… I would have my wife and children lock down in a room and call 911. Then i would go downstairs and confront them… gun or no gun.

Maybe I would feel bad if I killed some one who broke into my house. Maybe. I guarantee I would feel worse if I did nothing, submitted to his/their control… and my family got hurt.

[jimboston]

I have Umbrella Insurance…. hopefully that would help.

Keep hoping!
-->
https://www.policygenius.com/homeowners ... f-defense/

I’ll have to look into my Umbrella Policy. The Umbrella BTW, is sometimes tied to the Hime Insurance but it can be an entirely different policy. So your link isn’t really relevant.

Also wouldn’t me accidental shooting an intruder in the middle of the night when he surprised me with a knife be an accident?

“I didn’t mean to kill him, but when he charged me I was startled and my finger accidentally pulled the trigger.”

I'm 99% sure your umbrella policy would hang you out to dry.

I pay $9/month for a USLS policy which provides coverage for legal fees for criminal and civil defense for a negligent discharge or self-defense incident (not just involving firearms). The drawback is you have to be represented by one of their attorneys. I think it's good to have anytime you own firearms, particularly in an oppressive anti-gun state. I even have it and there's zero chance I'd ever use a gun for anything other than sport shooting since I never concealed carry and, at home, I keep them unloaded with trigger locks (so it would be impossible for me to even access them in time if I actually needed for self-defense).

I don’t have a gun… but have thought about it. I agree keeping it locked at night eliminates the actual value / usefulness in the event of a nighttime break in… and this is one thing I think about as I’ve considered getting a firearm.

I’ve been wondering the best option…

1) Every night when I go to bed, take my gun out of the safe… and place loaded gun in my bedside drawer.
Then every morning remove gun from my bedside table and relock it in said safe.

2) Install a hidden compartment in my wall near my bed. I have a place this would work, which is over a door and not readily accessible to kids, but someplace I could easily and quickly access in an emergency.

I think I’d go with 2… but not sure my wife would like it. Our kids are older and I’d never show them the compartment. I think knocking out this area of drywall would be fairly easy… and I could do it not even needing a contractor.

[KoolBak]

Colt .38 doesn't have a safety.

f*ck em. In my house? Dead. Don't care.

As to gun question; you are the person that probably shouldn't have a gun after reading that. If you DO, then you, your wife and your kids ALL need to go thru qualified professional training in order to be as safe as possible. Then, your hidey hole idea is sound.

Consider a tazer, a hammer, mace and / or a baseball bat.

Personally, being raised with weapons and hunting and having raised my kids the same (and thoroughly trained my wife), I have a .45 I sleep with, 2 in my shop where I work and 4 throughout the house / shop. All loaded mags, none with one in the pipe (EVER). None sitting in plain sight where it could be inadvertently picked up. 40 or so more in my 2 big ass safes. I thoroughly enjoy buying, building, refurbishing, trading and selling weapons (properly and legally).

And signs outside indicating criminals WILL be shot.

Not a peep from a bad guy in 35 years, thankfully.

Like religion and politics, a very sensitive subject.

[jimboston]

I live in a pretty safe area and really haven’t felt the need… until recently.

First with the BLM stuff… all the riots.

… and then during and after Covid… when some store shelves were being emptied I started wondering… “what if the me]asses from the nearby city decide to come to the ‘burbs and take what they can;t find in the stores?”

Then as I saw/see Portland, San Francisco, Philly, etc. all start falling into ruin… 3rd World Country conditions in some areas.

I wouldn’t get a handgun without proper training… but I doubt my wife or kids would.

Though I could get it without kids knowing… wife would have zero interest (until or unless it’s’ use became necessary).

[mookiemcgee]

I live in a pretty safe area and really haven’t felt the need… until recently.

First with the BLM stuff… all the riots.

… and then during and after Covid… when some store shelves were being emptied I started wondering… “what if the me]asses from the nearby city decide to come to the ‘burbs and take what they can;t find in the stores?”

Then as I saw/see Portland, San Francisco, Philly, etc. all start falling into ruin… 3rd World Country conditions in some areas.

I wouldn’t get a handgun without proper training… but I doubt my wife or kids would.

Though I could get it without kids knowing… wife would have zero interest (until or unless it’s’ use became necessary).

I have a strong gut feeling your wifes boyfriend has a concealed carry, so your wife and kids are probably gonna be ok Jim.

[KoolBak]

so bad.

I can't recommend strong enough NOT to acquire a gun in your scenario. Not worth it.

These are the stories where people get hurt due to lack of training.

BTW, shoot me your address, as I WILL be one of those unpleasant visitors after the shit hits the fan

[jimboston]

so bad.

I can't recommend strong enough NOT to acquire a gun in your scenario. Not worth it.

These are the stories where people get hurt due to lack of training.

BTW, shoot me your address, as I WILL be one of those unpleasant visitors after the shit hits the fan

I’ve shot, but I’m not trained.

Why specifically do you say you DON’T think I should get a gun?

What about my scenario specifically?

Obviously I would take a course, go to the range, etc.

[saxitoxin]

Jim -

1. Get an alarm with an audible sound in your bedroom.
2. Then get a Glock G19 and keep it in a quick access biometric lock safe next to your bed; the alarm will give you enough time to access it
3. Take the NRA Pistol class ... it's 4 hours online and 4 hours in person
4. Then get self defense insurance through USLS or USCCA
5. Only buy hollow point ammo so if you miss it doesn't go through walls and hit unsuspecting family members
6. Get a CCP even if you don't plan to take it outside the house

Let's see if KB agrees with me or not!

[jimboston]

Jim -

1. Get an alarm with an audible sound in your bedroom.
2. Then get a Glock G19 and keep it in a quick access biometric lock safe next to your bed; the alarm will give you enough time to access it
3. Take the NRA Pistol class ... it's 4 hours online and 4 hours in person
4. Then get self defense insurance through USLS or USCCA
5. Only buy hollow point ammo so if you miss it doesn't go through walls and hit unsuspecting family members
6. Get a CCP even if you don't plan to take it outside the house

Let's see if KB agrees with me or not!

I would do more than 8 hour class.

[Dukasaur]

Colt .38 doesn't have a safety.

The one my father had certainly did. I fired it many times, and remember taking the safety off every time.

Wikipedia agrees with me.

Colt's "Positive Lock" firing pin block safety is a standard feature of the revolver, preventing the firing pin from striking the primer unless the trigger is deliberately pulled

Personally, being raised with weapons and hunting and having raised my kids the same (and thoroughly trained my wife), I have a .45 I sleep with, 2 in my shop where I work and 4 throughout the house / shop. All loaded mags, none with one in the pipe (EVER).

I was raised with guns. My father collected them, and in the 70's getting permits was super easy. It didn't start being a hassle until the 80's. We pretty much had a gun in every room, not in plain sight but readily accessible. The theory was home defense, but I never saw an instance where the home was defended that way. What I did see was a lot of near misses, where one or another of my father's friends would start playing with a gun and almost shot himself. On one occasion, my father was really stoned and he flew into a rage about the flies buzzing around in the kitchen, started shooting flies with a semiautomatic .22. Pretty much demolished the kitchen. I don't know if any flies died. Probably some of them died laughing.

I was a troubled teen. I often stole guns from my father and went somewhere with bad intentions. I'm lucky that none of those instances ever ended badly, but there were bad things I did for which I could have gone to jail, and at least twice I might have killed someone. The second one was a cop. Cop killing is one of the few crimes in Canada for which children get adult sentences. My life might have been over at 14, and everything I've done since then, including everything good, would have been pre-emptively erased.

Generally speaking, I think people are kidding themselves about home defense. Once in a while it has the correct result, but more often than not the person killed isn't a criminal but the gun owner when he bites off more than he can chew, or an innocent bystander, or a friend or relative in a friendly fire accident.

Anyway, I've never felt the need for owning a gun since becoming an adult. I do have a crossbow for hunting. It's perfectly lethal enough for bringing home the bacon (not that I ever have time for that, lol) without inviting the legal scrutiny that a gun does.

[KoolBak]

Lol ..find me a picture or explain in detail where it was / how it engaged. Old colt revolvers DO NOT have safeties - I own three. Or perhaps he had a 38 Super that was the semi-auto, like a 1911?

The crap you quoted from wiki does NOT agree with you. That is a safety FEATURE of any semi modern wheel gun so it will not fire if it's dropped and lands on the hammer.

You're in my wheelhouse now boyo ....

And I honor your opinion about their use / functionality, but if we're gonna quote stories about home defense, I'm gonna win.

The unwashed masses don't hear about the 500-1000 success stories for every 1 sad one.

And I do believe I was the one telling NPC #1 above NOT to get a gun...

[jimboston]

NPC #1

Now why do I deserve to be relegated to Non-Playing Character status?

[bigtoughralf]

A few US cases from this week that serve as a warning self-defence may sometimes result in the defender being charged:

• Warrant issued for man who shot child and her father after they rolled their BASKETBALL onto his YARD: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65325867
• Man arrested after shooting someone who drove a VEHICLE onto HIS driveway: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65307556
• Man charged after shooting BLACK TEENAGER who knocked on his DOOR: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65316073
• Man charged after shooting two WOMEN who got into his CAR and SAT DOWN: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65330696

Clearly if these people were sold guns they are stable and responsible members of society, so their decision to shoot these miscreants must have been an exercismation of their right to defend their lives, their properties, their wives, and freedom. And yet they were arrested!!! Stuff like this is basically how Nazi Germany started.

[jimboston]

You are an ass.

Your examples of people being idiots does NOT mean that every gun owner is an idiot.
That is not how logic and debate works.
That is not how statistics works.

You cannot extrapolate your false narrative from some bad examples.

I’m sure I could find plenty of news reports demonstrating examples were guns were useful and successfully used to prevent or limit harm. It’s a waste of my time to do so and think it might influence you in any way.

Go take a long walk on a short pier.

[Maxleod]

You are an ass.

Your examples of people being idiots does NOT mean that every gun owner is an idiot.

It does mean, however, that not all gun owners are "responsible gun owners", despite being LEGALLY allowed to carry guns.
And don't get me wrong, if I was living in America, depending on the situation, what kind of neighbourghood I live in, I could get myself a firearm, but I wouldn't shoot a 6 yo girl who's just trying to retrieve her ball from my lawnyard.
.

[mookiemcgee]

but I wouldn't shoot a 6 yo girl who's just trying to retrieve her ball from my lawnyard.
.

Even if she was black?

[bigtoughralf]

Your examples of people being idiots does NOT mean that every gun owner is an idiot.

Erm, what? Read my post again, I said that those gun owners are all stable and responsible. I don't think anyone who would commit acts of extreme violence in defense of their property could ever be called an idiot.

[Dukasaur]

You are an ass.

Your examples of people being idiots does NOT mean that every gun owner is an idiot.
That is not how logic and debate works.
That is not how statistics works.

You cannot extrapolate your false narrative from some bad examples.

I’m sure I could find plenty of news reports demonstrating examples were guns were useful and successfully used to prevent or limit harm. It’s a waste of my time to do so and think it might influence you in any way.

Go take a long walk on a short pier.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, has posited the "every gun owner is an idiot".

I think most of us will agree that the majority of gun owners are reasonable. The majority isn't enough. When you're talking about the ability to deal out death with only a tenth of a second to think about it, even if 95% are reasonable, it's not enough.

And yes, cherry-picking extreme examples isn't proof of anything, but the fact that examples are so ludicrously easy to find does form at least presumptive evidence. There have been what, 160 shootings in the U.S. so far this year? More than one a day? Is that the failure rate of a reasonable system?

[mookiemcgee]

That number seems awfully low Duk, it might be missing the qualifier 'mass'.

'gun deaths' in the USA around 45,000/year which includes suicides that account for roughly half.

Mass shootings last year somewhere around 600 (give or take 2 per day) though 'deadly' mass shootings only around 40.

I guess different methodologies and definition of terms is gonna lead to a pretty varied set of figures based on where you look, but gun deaths in its most generic definition is around 125 people/day in USA.

Last year there was about 315 gun deaths of 0-11 year olds.... So almost 1/day

[jonesthecurl]

Guns are actually the leading cause of death in people aged 1-18 in the U.S. I'm not being "smug' or 'America-hating' saying that, it's just true.