The Werewolves of Miller's Hollow Wolves win

[SoN!c]

But my dog smells something is off but i can't figure out what she tries to tell me.

Probably something like: "Hey, check this out! I found some more dogshit!"

Yeah it was near your frontdoor when she got excited . So who did you defend? DDS on N1 - that would explain the bitemark?

[Votanic]

Okay, I will claim, but first I want another piece of information from Dega.
@ Dega: If you are defender, who did you defend on all three nights?
...and I don't buy your argument that revealing this would help the Wolves, since they probably have better ideas about this already than Town does.

Thor not showing us is weird... but there are several possibilities on what it could mean.
1) Wolf - either lying low on purpose or being a slacker.
2) Town - being a total slacker
3) Town - being a Townie with a power role, who slacks during the Da,y but does his job at night when Traf sends him a PM to remind him.

I have more to say (including my claim) but I want Dega's reply first.

[degaston]

Okay, I will claim, but first I want another piece of information from Dega.

Why is your claim contingent upon me revealing who I protected?
I claimed my role, everyone knows it pretty much had to exist, and no one has counter claimed. (Are you planning to try?) That should be enough for you to make your own claim.

[Votanic]

Okay, I will claim, but first I want another piece of information from Dega.

Why is your claim contingent upon me revealing who I protected?
I claimed my role, everyone knows it pretty much had to exist, and no one has counter claimed. (Are you planning to try?) That should be enough for you to make your own claim.

If you give details, they can be checked out.
Details from the past have minimum value for the Wolves future play, so giving details is mainly a benefit to Town
So then by all means, benefit us.

[Votanic]

Scenarios I'm playing with.

1. Pixar and ewebasher are both wolves and last night very cleverly created two elaborate false claims.
In that case, Thor coulde even be athird wolf... or not.

2. Pixar and Swang are both wolves with false claims.

3. Only one wolf left, Pixar, Swang, or (less likely) Ewebasher.

4. Ragian saved Dega not knowing he IS a wolf... but this becomes unlikely since nobody else is claiming Defender ...but maybe not.
Surely, there must be a defender role since so many Wolf kills have been thwarted.

Night 1: Bailiff was Wolf-killed. I had guessed the BBW would have also played Night 1 (why wait?) and targeted me, and I was saved by the Defender.

Night 2: No wolf kills. Ragian resurrected a wolf-kill (Dega) but could it have been a white-wolf (LC) kill against another Wolf). If not and Dega was the Defender he probably was defending Swang (maybe not?). Did the Wolves target Dega because they knew he was unlikely to be defended?
I know there was at least one other wolf-kill attempt on Night 2, but could there have even two other attempts, because the BBW played N2 instead of N1?

Night 3: No wolf kills. The Defender (Dega?) was probably defending Devante, but the Wolves had already been thwarted once (actually twice, maybe even three times?) So on Night 3 the wolves just tried for their best target anyway, Devante, and then got thwarted for a third or fourth time...

One more time Dega, will you tell me who you defended on all three nights? Then will explain what I can.

[Votanic]

EBWOP: Then I will explain what I can.

[degaston]

Okay, I will claim, but first I want another piece of information from Dega.

Why is your claim contingent upon me revealing who I protected?
I claimed my role, everyone knows it pretty much had to exist, and no one has counter claimed. (Are you planning to try?) That should be enough for you to make your own claim.

If you give details, they can be checked out.
Details from the past have minimum value for the Wolves future play, so giving details is mainly a benefit to Town
So then by all means, benefit us.

You never explained what that has to do with you not claiming.

[Votanic]

Okay, I will claim, but first I want another piece of information from Dega.

Why is your claim contingent upon me revealing who I protected?
I claimed my role, everyone knows it pretty much had to exist, and no one has counter claimed. (Are you planning to try?) That should be enough for you to make your own claim.

If you give details, they can be checked out.
Details from the past have minimum value for the Wolves future play, so giving details is mainly a benefit to Town
So then by all means, benefit us.

You never explained what that has to do with you not claiming.

I said I will explain.
Did you even defend anyone on Night 1?
It was announced early on Day 2 that you were taking over Josko's role, so I would guess you actually started play on Night 1.
I would also guess that you defended me, but maybe not.

[Votanic]

Dega isn't being helpful but that doesn't necessarily mean he is a wolf... since nobody else has claimed the defender role.


So here is my claim. I am the Town Elder. The Blood found after Night 2 was my blood. I had the ability to survive one wolf attack.

Here is what I think must have happened each night.
Night 1: The Defender (Dega?) defended me on Night 1 because I was the most likely target, but the Wolves guessed that I would be defended and decided to kill the Bailiff instead. The BBW did not play, maybe he could not play the first night for some reason.

Night 2: The wolves attacked Dega just because they didn't think he would be defended. Dega probably defended Swang. Swang was not attacked either because 1) He was highest priority for defense, or 2) He is a wolf. Ragian the Witch used his healing potion and resurrected Dega.
However, the BBW also attacked on Night 2, and tride to kill me agian, only my elder power saved me.

The big alternative possibility is that the White Wolf attacked a wolf Dega ... but again his uncontested defender claim makes this unlikely.

Also, Ragian never mentioned that he had a choice of players to save, so presumably he couldn't save a BBW or White Wolf victim anyway.

Night 3: The Wolved targeted Devante and the Defender (Dega?) saved him... what makes this weird is the wolves were savvy enough to avoid the most likely defended player on the first two nights, why would they suddenly decided to try for Devante. Maybe they felt lucky or desperate, ...or maybe, something isn't fitting quite right?

So where does that leave us?

Barring additional info (Hey Thor, anytime you feel like it!). I am going to say we should either lynch Pixar or swang.

The argument for voting Sheriff Pixar is that he has two votes, so if he is a wolf, we should get him out of the way first.
Also his claimed Little Girl role didn't do much to help Town... and it even tried to throw some suspicion on Thor, an easy target.

The argument for voting Barber swang is that making the Barber also a wolf is a cute idea... and I think Traf did link some public roles with particular private roles:
Bailiff & Pyromaniac, Confessor & Elder, Barkeep & White Wolf are all just too convenient to be random... so why not Barber & Wolf?

Okay, so what does everybody else think?

[swang918]

something is wrong. There are too many power roles within town for everyone to be telling the truth.

[degaston]

So here is my claim. I am the Town Elder. The Blood found after Night 2 was my blood. I had the ability to survive one wolf attack.

You were informed that you were attacked?

[TrafalgarLaw01]

End of the day will be February 1rst at 18:00 CC time

[Votanic]

So here is my claim. I am the Town Elder. The Blood found after Night 2 was my blood. I had the ability to survive one wolf attack.

You were informed that you were attacked?

Yes.

[Votanic]

So Degaston, as Defender, what can you add to our knowledge of night events?

[Votanic]

Thinking more about my idea that public roles being linked to particular private roles.

Lord & Seer: Giving the seer (secret cop) the ability to also stop a lynch is an ideal combination.
Confessor & Elder: Giving the Confessor (public cop) the ability to survive a wolf attack aslo makes logical sense.
Bailiff & Pyromaniac: Giving the guy who puts people in buildings the ability to burn a building down (if infested by wolves) is another logical combination.
(Of course if any vagambond did get put in buildngs, the combinations would change, but that is just part of the game.)

Bone-Setter & Simple Villager: Here the pattern breaks down. Maybe there was no reason to link Bonesetterwith a non-vanilla private role...
Could EW be something like the Actor, just playing at being a Villager when he confessed, or maybe even Third-Party.
I know I'm going way out on a limb here and don't strongly believe that myself ...but it could explain his weird playstyle this game.

School Marm & Accursed Wolf Father: This was kind of a bad combination, in retrospect, since the Accursed Wolf Father would probably work better being as unobtrusive as possible... but who knows?

The only Public Town role (with a building) without a fully confirmed private role is the Barber. He says he is just a Simple Villager. Some have suggested he might be a Wolf, I'm not sure but we need to consider the possibility.

Of course, Pixar the Sheriff also doesn't have a confirmed private role, but Sheriffs are appointed, instead of starting the game with a building.

Am I posting excessively? Maybe it is just that many players are posting very little.

[degaston]

So here is my claim. I am the Town Elder. The Blood found after Night 2 was my blood. I had the ability to survive one wolf attack.

You were informed that you were attacked?

Yes.

I defended you on N1, Swang on N2, and Dev on N3.

But something doesn't add up here.
D1, the AWF is lynched. So according the the "rules"...

Each night they wake up and feast with the other Werewolves. Afterwards, as long as no Werewolf, Wild Child or WolfHound has been eliminated, they wake
up a second time and devour a second victim (they cannot choose a Werewolf).

... the BBW should never have had a chance to make a 2nd attack. (Though Traf can do whatever he wants.)

On N1, Ragian the Bailiff/Pyromaniac is eaten, but then at the end of D2 we find out that DDS had been bitten. So what I conclude from that is that someone inherited the AWF power and used that to change the main attack on DDS to an infection. Then the BBW used his 2nd kill on the Bailiff. So after N1, one way or another, both the BBW and the AFW should definitely be used up.

On N2, Ragian the Vagabond/Witch says I was attacked and died, but he resurrected me. I wasn't informed of any of this.
You say you were also attacked, and informed about it, even though the "rules" explicitly state:

The first time that the Elder of the village is attacked by the Werewolves, they survive (the moderator does not announce that this has happened). The Elder is eliminated only the second time that they are devoured.

(Again, Traf can do what he wants.)

But if the BBW had no attack, and I was the target of the main wolf attack, then who attacked you?
The only thing I can think of is:

Each night, the White Werewolf wakes up and feasts with the other Werewolves. However, every other night, upon the moderator's call, they wake up a second time, alone, and may eliminate one of the Werewolves.

But now I'm admittedly stuck. If you're the Elder, then LC shouldn't have been able to attack you. If you're just a werewolf, how did you survive? Can you be both?

Does anyone have a better explanation for these events?

[Votanic]

Dega, First the Facts:
I am the Town Confessor and Elder. I am not a Wolf.
On Night .2 I was informed by the Mod that I was wounded by wolves, but survived because I am the Elder.
Clearly Traf modified the role from the way it is written in W.O.M.H. That is ot surprising, since it makes better gameplay this way.

I do not know for certain if the Big Bad Wolf role was also modified, but I think it likely that the part of the BBW power being lost because alnither wolf had already died would be disregarded becuase that only doubles the Wolves' misfortune and further unbalances the game.

I also do not knw why the BBW would wait until Night 2 to use his power, but it is the only way I can think to explain how two Townies, yourself and myself, could both be attacked by wolves on the same night.

I should add that when I first heard about your Night 2 resurrection I was thinking you might be a Wolf, but your unchallenged claim of being the Defender seems to back up your Towniness.

Also Dega, as I said before, I do think that the AWF power was transfered to another Wolf after strikewolf's death and I do think that other wolf converted DDS on Night 1.
However the AWF conversion would not take the place of the wolves' nightly kill, but be in addition to it.
That is how it is in W.O.M.H. Pact and I think Traf would also maintain that separation.

[Votanic]

Also your quote about the Elder role is not verbatim to how it is written in the Pact rulebook.
Are you quoting from another source?

[degaston]

Also your quote about the Elder role is not verbatim to how it is written in the Pact rulebook.
Are you quoting from another source?

I posted this earlier, but here it is again:
https://cdn.svc.asmodee.net/production- ... _Rules.pdf
I thought they were identical, but apparently not. I'd been using mine because the text is searchable and selectable.

[Votanic]

Also your quote about the Elder role is not verbatim to how it is written in the Pact rulebook.
Are you quoting from another source?

I posted this earlier, but here it is again:
https://cdn.svc.asmodee.net/production- ... _Rules.pdf
I thought they were identical, but apparently not. I'd been using mine because the text is searchable and selectable.

Okay, the PDF version I look at just says the card is not turned over.
In any case, I'm glad Traf modified that or I would be flying blind.
Besides, it makes more sense: who gets mauled by wolves and doesn't notice?

Anyway, it's been great chatting with you on this thread.
We should invite some of the other players to post too...

[degaston]

I do not know for certain if the Big Bad Wolf role was also modified, but I think it likely that the part of the BBW power being lost because alnither wolf had already died would be disregarded becuase that only doubles the Wolves' misfortune and further unbalances the game.

I agree with that.

I also do not knw why the BBW would wait until Night 2 to use his power, but it is the only way I can think to explain how two Townies, yourself and myself, could both be attacked by wolves on the same night.

The problem with that is that it appears there were two attacks on N1 as well. Neither could have been the White Wolf - it was the wrong night, and they were both confirmed townies, so it seems like the BBW had to be one of them. So the only way I can see two attacks on N2 is if the White Wolf was one of them.

[degaston]

Besides, it makes more sense: who gets mauled by wolves and doesn't notice?

I've been shot while wearing a bulletproof vest and didn't notice. It doesn't have to make logical sense.

And yes, I'm hoping the others will join in. Especially if they have some other info to share.

[Votanic]

I do not know for certain if the Big Bad Wolf role was also modified, but I think it likely that the part of the BBW power being lost because alnither wolf had already died would be disregarded becuase that only doubles the Wolves' misfortune and further unbalances the game.

I agree with that.

I also do not knw why the BBW would wait until Night 2 to use his power, but it is the only way I can think to explain how two Townies, yourself and myself, could both be attacked by wolves on the same night.

The problem with that is that it appears there were two attacks on N1 as well. Neither could have been the White Wolf - it was the wrong night, and they were both confirmed townies, so it seems like the BBW had to be one of them. So the only way I can see two attacks on N2 is if the White Wolf was one of them.

No, on Night 1, there was one regular werewolf attack (on the Bailiff) and one AWF werewolf conversion (on DDS).

[degaston]

No, on Night 1, there was one regular werewolf attack (on the Bailiff) and one AWF werewolf conversion (on DDS).

Neither version of the manual shows the AWF power as a separate attack. They both state that when the AWF uses his power, the victim "isn't devoured, but infected".

[degaston]

No, on Night 1, there was one regular werewolf attack (on the Bailiff) and one AWF werewolf conversion (on DDS).

Neither version of the manual shows the AWF power as a separate attack. They both state that when the AWF uses his power, the victim "isn't devoured, but infected".

"The victim" being the one that was chosen for the regular wolf attack that night.