EW's Semi-Open Matrix Madness

[swang918]

A hypothesis I've developed...

1. I think EW really wanted to run a mountainous/all-vanilla game. He comes off as the kind of person that might equate minimalism with sophistication.

2. However, he knew/suspected that an all-vanilla game would be a tough sell (because having super powers is kewl!!!)

3. So he gave us a game that kinda looks like it has PRs but really keeps Town pretty close to vanilla.

For examples:
• Tracker isn't even close to being on par with cop/seer as an investigative role. There is a good chance a tracker might miss the action every single night.
• And what is even worse than a Tracker? ...a 'Motion Detector'...
• We might have a doctor, but even if we do he will only work 50% of the time (or just once if he's the JOAT!)
• But who might have a cop and certainly does have most of the role-blocking? Scum!
• So scum will probably soon be able to find and neutralize most of Town's already limited PRs. That is assuming they don't just night-kill them....

More likely, EW plays alot on the other mafia sites, which are purely dedicated to mafia, and brought over this matrix thing, which is probably the meta on the other sites and probably been tweaked over time to be some kind of optimally balanced setup.

[fusibaseball]

Speaking of which. Do we get a large communal sword?

THE SWORD IS EXTREMELY LARGE AND HENCE SHOULD BE A COMMUNAL ASSET. IT'S STILL IN VOT'S POSSESSION SINCE HE CALLED DIBS HE JUST DOESNT WANT TO ADMIT IT

[TrafalgarLaw01]

I must say i agree with Vot on he roles analysis. Motion detector sucks. Trackers is not even close to a cop.

I have been thinking what is the best strat for town this game, or better what is our advantage. I find it simple. Sheer numbers. 12-3 is pretty much the most heavily town sided we ever had since this mafia games started again. Now Town roles are not that good for that very same reason.

I disagree when people say if we don't lynch or get a claim on D1, then D2 just becomes D1. That is not actually true. There might be one dead person, and some night actions so will be actually better to have reads and leads.

And as I said sheer numbers is our strength. so why maybe lynch someone on D1, most likely town. Makes no sense.

[pmchugh]

Has anyone ever seen scum, under zero pressure, claim vanilla townie on day 1? Feels like newbie town to me.

This. This what I'm talking about.
From the same player that believes in the 'townslip' concept.

Every player implicitly wants to be perceived as 'Vanilla Town' on Day 1
Why? because obviously scumminess and PRs are best kept private.

Therefore whether a player explicitly (or only implicitly) claims 'to be vanilla, is only a minor point at best.

Also, @swang: The popular kids will like you better if you don't crib off their nonsense vibe lists.
Instead, make your own. It's easy, you don't need to know anything!

Townslips are real though. Kong did it last game in his first post. Saying they are real does not mean they can't be faked.

And my point here is simple; I've seen newbie town early claim vanilla more often than scum claiming it early. Although maybe Charle did it quite early in the wilds game.

I feel like you are always dismissing every point you disagree with on the grounds it isn't concrete evidence, but barring night action reveals nothing is ever concrete, its about what is the most likely interpretation of events.

[Votanic]

...its about what is the most likely interpretation of events.

Yep. that is the problem.
Without real evidence, interpretations are just going to spin out wildly, and the idea that gets branded 'most likely' is going to be random, at best...
but probably even worse than random. Because scum are the wise guys who already know who is on which team*, and they know who they want to frame for a lynch most...

* So yeah, giving them more PRs than town is kinda wack-modding. Truth.

So here are my lists. No 'magic' vibes, and no ill-defined (yet over-defined) categories of towniness vs. scuminess... because I honestly don't know. (wish I did...).

Players that have been perceived by some as playing differently this game: Devante, DDS

Players that have posted the least: swang, Pixar, Fusi

Players that have promoted gameplay methods that have been widely perceived as anti-town: Loose Canon

Okay, so there are some relatively 'real' things that we can focus on. Thati s if we want to...

[swang918]

And as I said sheer numbers is our strength. so why maybe lynch someone on D1, most likely town. Makes no sense.

You can flip this on its head and say, yes sheer numbers is our strength, so we should use our numbers by lynching on D1. If we mislynch then no problem, we still have numbers, and if we hit a scum then we're really in the drivers seat.

[TrafalgarLaw01]

And as I said sheer numbers is our strength. so why maybe lynch someone on D1, most likely town. Makes no sense.

You can flip this on its head and say, yes sheer numbers is our strength, so we should use our numbers by lynching on D1. If we mislynch then no problem, we still have numbers, and if we hit a scum then we're really in the drivers seat.

That makes no sense if numbers is our biggest asset. Then losing someone D1 just cause we have numbers is giving away some adv.

[Ragian]

What do you propose, then, Traf? Stall everything and go to night? How does that help? Apart from diminishing our numbers N1 with a scum kill.

[Votanic]

What do you propose, then, Traf? Stall everything and go to night? How does that help? Apart from diminishing our numbers N1 with a scum kill.

Yeah, I agree with you here. The less Town PRs, the more Town lynches have to become random, so we might as well start Day 1....
...and I don't say that with any joy. The random lynch aspect of mafia is one of its least pleasant aspects.
That's why I prefer Town PRs. Sure, make jokes about super-powers and giant swords, but skills, facts, investigation and evidence is how mysteries get solved in RL.
And it is also more entertaining too. Just look at police procedural shows or Christie-style whodunnits.

In any case, we don't have much of that this game. Just words, ...and some of them are lies.
...but it still is almost impossible to fully corner a liar without hard facts.
Even if we catch someone in a slip, it can always be chalked up as a typo, a phone glitch, confusion about an earlier post, or just poor townie play.

[Ragian]

Luckily, this isn't real life. It's a (fun) game. And I wouldn't call lynches random. They might appear random D1 because there's next to nothing to go on, but patterns emerge slowly. Scum will slip up.

[Votanic]

Luckily, this isn't real life. It's a (fun) game. And I wouldn't call lynches random. They might appear random D1 because there's next to nothing to go on, but patterns emerge slowly.

In this game, patterns will emerge very slowly, with a very good chance town will be lost by the time they do.

Scum will slip up.

Will they? ...and if so, what will complacent, disorganized town do about it when they do?
The closest thing to a slip up is so far is LC pushing another bad plan... and everyone seems dead-set on ignoring that.

...and I'm talking to you like you're town, Rag...but there is a fair chance your mollifying tone is a scum tactic.

[TrafalgarLaw01]

What do you propose, then, Traf? Stall everything and go to night? How does that help? Apart from diminishing our numbers N1 with a scum kill.

Yes, I propose no lynch D1. If we lynch D1 we wont find any find of real info we very well might kill a townin with no need for the mafia to vote for it.

On D2 it could be the same but some townies might have some info. so its totally different.

[kongming3]

I continue to believe no lynch would be a mistake

[Loose Canon]

It has already been called out that the hypothesis Votanic developed was nonsense, and that other aspects of his posts have been peculiar.

There is no way Votanic would be voting for a lynch if he had a TownPR.
Just no way.

Vot is either scum or vanilla town this game.

unvote no lynch. VOTE VOTANIC

[Votanic]

It has already been called out that the hypothesis Votanic developed was nonsense, and that other aspects of his posts have been peculiar.

There is no way Votanic would be voting for a lynch if he had a TownPR.
Just no way.

Vot is either scum or vanilla town this game.

unvote no lynch. VOTE VOTANIC

(chuckle) Stop it! Now you're just doing it on purpose...

[kongming3]

As much as I dislike how limited the information we have at hand, the forum flirting is entertaining to see.

[Ragian]

What do you propose, then, Traf? Stall everything and go to night? How does that help? Apart from diminishing our numbers N1 with a scum kill.

Yes, I propose no lynch D1. If we lynch D1 we wont find any find of real info we very well might kill a townin with no need for the mafia to vote for it.

On D2 it could be the same but some townies might have some info. so its totally different.

So, do you propose town PRs divulge their findings D2? If you don't, how's D2 different? If you do, you paint a target on their backs even if they have no intel.

[Ragian]

...and I'm talking to you like you're town, Rag...but there is a fair chance your mollifying tone is a scum tactic.

Well, at least that's you trying to work the game. Go on. Do that instead of bickering about a disorganised town. Put your big boy pants on.

And yes, scum will slip up. Whether it's a bad claim, being inconsistent, or what, they will slip up.

[Ragian]

It has already been called out that the hypothesis Votanic developed was nonsense, and that other aspects of his posts have been peculiar.

There is no way Votanic would be voting for a lynch if he had a TownPR.
Just no way.

Vot is either scum or vanilla town this game.

unvote no lynch. VOTE VOTANIC

I think this is true. I haven't found Vot's sulking to be very scum-like, however.

[TrafalgarLaw01]

What do you propose, then, Traf? Stall everything and go to night? How does that help? Apart from diminishing our numbers N1 with a scum kill.

Yes, I propose no lynch D1. If we lynch D1 we wont find any find of real info we very well might kill a townin with no need for the mafia to vote for it.

On D2 it could be the same but some townies might have some info. so its totally different.

So, do you propose town PRs divulge their findings D2? If you don't, how's D2 different? If you do, you paint a target on their backs even if they have no intel.

Not necesarily. But hopefully town roles know how to play their cards. they can have better reads. that will be more usefull as days go on. while a lynch D1 can get a town dead and 0 info whatsoever.

[Kingm]

@King, Yes, a lot of it is BS and can be hard to decipher as of right now, but come D3 and D4, patterns emerge, and we will be able to use the BS from D1. If we just keep our mouths shut D1, we have nothing D2 and onwards. Why do you go for Devante, though?

I voted for dev because I felt like what the active guys said in like the 10-15 post before that one made sense, so it is just that I for some reason find dev a bit sus.
And I also had the feeling that it would be best to lynch D1, but from reading the last couple of pages, I think maybe I'm back on no lynch, this will be a long post so lets see what happens lol, I don't even no myself.

King - The King

Now just stop it DDS, you are making me blush, that comment alone put you down as a fellow townie in my book, lol

Scum
King, I am really feeling this one, but one thing is giving me pause, is it not a bit on the nose for scum to ask how scum kills work in the game thread?

The reason I asked about it, was because I was trying to see how we could use the matrix, and I saw that 2 of the rows&collumns had Mafia Goon on it, and since there is already 1 confirmed goon, I wonderd if that would mean the scum would get 2 kills if they wore 2 goon's, but EW said its only 1 night kill from Mafia or something like that, so I guess if they are 2 scum goons then they are some pussies that need to do the killing together and don't do it on their own.

And you are right I would not have asked it if was scum, it would be a weird thing to lie/ask about if I actually wore scum, atleast in my mind.

Leaning Scum
Kingm - Just a gut sense from his posts compared to the last game he played

Ok? feel I have posted the same way as I did in the other one I played, but maybe my vote for you has influenced it, who knows, makes me a bit more sus, but ok



But after reading 1 day worth of posts (damn this game got active), I think I have to change my vote, what traf and fusi said makes the most sense to me.

unvote Dev VOTE No Lynch

[Ragian]

What do you propose, then, Traf? Stall everything and go to night? How does that help? Apart from diminishing our numbers N1 with a scum kill.

Yes, I propose no lynch D1. If we lynch D1 we wont find any find of real info we very well might kill a townin with no need for the mafia to vote for it.

On D2 it could be the same but some townies might have some info. so its totally different.

So, do you propose town PRs divulge their findings D2? If you don't, how's D2 different? If you do, you paint a target on their backs even if they have no intel.

Not necesarily. But hopefully town roles know how to play their cards. they can have better reads. that will be more usefull as days go on. while a lynch D1 can get a town dead and 0 info whatsoever.

That's just not true. You will have a voting pattern D2 that you won't have if we don't lynch. I'm not saying that a voting pattern D2 is flawless, but it is a beginning. No lynch denies us that pattern.

Et tu, King?

[Ragian]

f*ck it.

I think DDS is the way to go. vote DDS

I can't get my head around his change of M.O. and not reading the rules. Feels like lazy scum.

[Extreme Ways]

Votecount:
No Lynch (3) - kingm, Loose Canon, Devante, Pixar
Swang (3) - fusi, kongming, PMC
Devante (3) - Charle, Strike, Swang
DDS (2) - Max, Ragian
PMChugh (1) - DDS
Loose Canon (1) - Votanic
Votanic (1) - Loose

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

[Kingm]

Votecount:
No Lynch (3) - kingm, Loose Canon, Devante, Pixar

Hmm, King thats 1, LC thats 2, Dev 3, Pix 4