TOFU/S&M Discussion

[Chariot of Fire]

When I found out TOFU was discussing a merger with S&M I immediately requested re-admittance to the clan I had started 15 years ago and had led to the pinnacle of success in the clan scene. Only S&M (previously KORT) had come close to matching our victories across leagues and cups - a rivalry that anyone with a history on CC would be aware of.

My PMs were ignored, to the extent it took four to finally get a reply which read:

"I cannot commit to anything right now because there was some frustration with the way you left last time. More importantly, setting that aside, I do not know that your desires for a clan (this one) fit well with our future. That may change, but that’s where it is now. I’ll try to keep in touch better going forward"


The mention of 'frustration' as to why I left? Let me tell you. The ideal of our clan, penned by me when I formed it, was "TOFU is a non-hierarchical clan which strives for..etc etc" yet for some incredible reason and without any debate, vote or discussion two members were made heads of clan. Not me, who probably constituted 75% of all posts in our forum and who had spent a third of his life administering our affairs. It was a fait accompli and went through leaving many of its members puzzled. I left the clan as a result, and rather than pointing fingers or laying blame simply said I was "looking for new challenges" and went to ACES (a great bunch of folks btw) but in truth I left because of the snub. That's not how a clan should be run and who the F put X & Y in charge? And what have they done? Possibly the worst thing that could happen to the clan scene, by merging numbers 1 & 2 together.

I'm deeply upset by the outcome. TOFU was a legendary clan and I offered (having resigned from ACES) to come back and help save it, even bringing players with me to bolster our playing numbers. What's worse is TOFU members weren't even made aware of my request to return, so what kind of dictatorship was going on there? If their goal was to be in S&M then fine, leave, but at least let me back in to salvage what remained and keep the clan alive and active.

Excuses in previous posts cut no mustard with me ("Oh we couldn't get enough active players bla bla bla") when they snubbed the one person who put his hand up to play in any/every game and who has the ability to rally numbers and recruit members. Pretty much every one on that list of TOFU members was brought in by me with the exception of the two individuals who were unelected leaders.

I created TOFU 15 years ago and if I've anything to be proud of in my time here then this was it. An amazing group of players and a strong camaraderie. To this day I still maintain strong bonds with most, both on CC and elsewhere, and it kills me that the legacy we earned has now disappeared from the annuls and I wasn't even given the chance to save it.

[Lindax]

I feel your pain mate. It was a great bunch of players. I left when they started taking on players whom I felt didn't really fit with the clan (and myself).

Start another clan, I'll join if you'll have me.

Lx

[Chariot of Fire]

I feel your pain mate. It was a great bunch of players. I left when they started taking on players whom I felt didn't really fit with the clan (and myself).

Start another clan, I'll join if you'll have me.

Lx

See, this is what we stood for. Players who stuck by you through thick and thin and communicated. None of this cloak and dagger shenanigans.

Lindax...I'd pin a medal on you if I could. Really appreciate your comment and the dedication you showed our clan x

[Swimmerdude99]

When I found out TOFU was discussing a merger with S&M I immediately requested re-admittance to the clan I had started 15 years ago and had led to the pinnacle of success in the clan scene...

Go build another clan. The one you left ain't the same clan anymore, you left and didn't want it anymore, and they didn't want you back when you tried - why the narrative of being upset? Go build a clan, since you could do so, so well, get all the people who would want you back to come join. They are individuals, capable of making decisions.

...I'm deeply upset by the outcome. TOFU was a legendary clan and I offered (having resigned from ACES) to come back and help save it, even bringing players with me to bolster our playing numbers. What's worse is TOFU members weren't even made aware of my request to return...

This doesn't seem lined up to reality. You sure there wasn't a vote? If not, why wouldn't they all come join a new clan with you now? Seems like if they wanted you back, they would join up pretty quick given your status in the clan/tenure for years.

I created TOFU 15 years ago and if I've anything to be proud of in my time here then this was it. An amazing group of players and a strong camaraderie. To this day I still maintain strong bonds with most, both on CC and elsewhere, and it kills me that the legacy we earned has now disappeared from the annuls and I wasn't even given the chance to save it.

You (yes, you know who you are) effectively killed my baby and you never even gave me a chance to rescue it. For that I have no forgiveness.

Bit dramatic - didn't you leave the clan? I've seen just how much you can flip on a dime/change your tune. I could see you having contributed to its demise based on attitude and verbal communication you have had.

Regardless, this comes off as whiney from someone who left a clan (multiple times, right?). Go make a new one, or ask to take over TOFU and rebuild.

[Chariot of Fire]

You and I have a problem, that much is evident.

And sorry but "Go build another clan" doesn't quite fit the bill does it.

What would you know about a vote in TOFU? Nothing. I on the other hand wrote to members and received answers so know exactly what went on and what they hadn't been briefed on.

Keep your prejudices to yourself. Nothing constructive in your post other than to have a dig and suggest some unfeasible resolution. It is what it is, probably water under the bridge now, but nevertheless a sad demise to an almighty clan. Same happened to THOTA (for those here long enough to remember their supremacy) but back then records weren't kept so they exist in memories alone.

[groovysmurf]

Moved the above posts from the recruitment thread.

[Arama86n]

As a former Odd Fellow for eight years, I will leave a few thoughts.

Leaving the clan was a very hard decision for me, and TOFU will always have a special place in my heart. I am very proud of what we achieved, and the CC3 semifinal vs KORT will always be my favourite CC memory.

To those that continued to fly the TOFU banner after a few of us left in 2020(?), and to new members that joined afterwards you have my salute for keeping the high standard, and going out as the #1 clan. Well done folks! You did all us previous members proud.

Very sad to see TOFU close its doors.

Now, regarding the TOFU usergroup and rights to the clan.
If all the current members of the clan have chosen to leave, and to join our arch-rival then it becomes easy:, If Chariot of Fire has an interest in the user group for social purposes, or to reform the clan, I would say it is his right to do so.
He is the Founder, and the most prominent member in TOFU history.
If Rockfist, Doc Brown and the other still active long-time members are going to S&M, then I would urge the mods to cede control back to CoF.

[Doc_Brown]

There were active discussions in the TOFU forum both about merging with S&M and about whether to hand control of TOFU back to CoF. The decisions made were not imposed by dictatorial leaders. In both cases, the decisions made were the result of a consensus opinion of the remaining clan members. I would prefer not to say more here, as I prefer to avoid the public drama and communicate directly with the relevant parties.

[Extreme Ways]

As a former Odd Fellow for eight years, I will leave a few thoughts.

Leaving the clan was a very hard decision for me, and TOFU will always have a special place in my heart. I am very proud of what we achieved, and the CC3 semifinal vs KORT will always be my favourite CC memory.

To those that continued to fly the TOFU banner after a few of us left in 2020(?), and to new members that joined afterwards you have my salute for keeping the high standard, and going out as the #1 clan. Well done folks! You did all us previous members proud.

Very sad to see TOFU close its doors.

Now, regarding the TOFU usergroup and rights to the clan.
If all the current members of the clan have chosen to leave, and to join our arch-rival then it becomes easy:, If Chariot of Fire has an interest in the user group for social purposes, or to reform the clan, I would say it is his right to do so.
He is the Founder, and the most prominent member in TOFU history.
If Rockfist, Doc Brown and the other still active long-time members are going to S&M, then I would urge the mods to cede control back to CoF.

Most prominent is not necessarily a good thing.

CoF left TOFU twice. One to go to REP only to come back 2 months later citing it was a massive mistake. Then, earlier this year, to ACES. I'm not going to air too much dirty laundry, but if you don't want your clan to dissolve one shouldn't leave it or otherwise impact it negatively.

CoF may have founded TOFU, but its legacy in recent times was carried forth by other people. In my eyes, CoF is still hurting this legacy currently and misrepresenting the situation. CoF, I still remember you wanting to push out a long-standing enjoyable person of our clan because their level of play wasn't up to your standards. A player who seldom complained. You left your "baby" twice and was surprised when the adoptive parents said "enough is enough".

For the sake of transparency and since my opinion on CoF as a player has been open before, I definitely was one of those who refused to team with him unless there werent enough people for the game. Playing with CoF tested my patience and was usually not very fun for me.

CoF left us for REP in an emotional fit in the past and sheepishly rejoined. To then in another emotional fit leave to join ACES instead of - in my personal opinion - talk it out like adults is fine, but I fully support the decision to not let him back in. I want to emphasise that he didnt leave quietly either.

Quite frankly the persona that is CoF has kind of driven a wedge in our ranks. The only way I accept CoF in a game of mine as a teammate is if I can have a guarantee that he
1) [redacted for privacy reasons]
2) treats my teammates and myself with respect
3) doesnt miss turns.

I really wish CoF is able to deal with the first. My personal opinion of his character does not at all interfere with my desire for him to be healthy and happy. I also think #3 can be realised, though for his own sake he seems to be happier when he's away from CC. My trust regarding #2 has been broken too many times to consider this.

I just wanted to corroborate [name] in that I said after CoF left that I would leave if he ever joined again. Given that I am currently on 0 active games that doesnt mean much, but besides attracting new players Cof has also driven people away.

CoF further throwing shade at "the two hopeless individuals" who have put as much of their heart and soul into this clan is downright disrespectful, and if it wasn't for their work the clan might have collapsed sooner when you were still in it.

[*Pixar*]

Not related to leadership drama. But I for one do not think this is the "best" decision for the clan world. You have a #1 and #2 clan merging, likely will make S&M unbeatable in any event. Add to the fact that there is one less competitive clan in the mix. Yes, I understand CC is dying as we speak and it is hard to recruit, but do you really think this is the right decision and won't hurt the clan scene in the future? TOFU was around since I was a weeeeee little boy and to just abandon a prestige clan is just not right imho... And take my opinion for what it is, knowing I'm not much to the clan world

[fishydance]

Not related to leadership drama. But I for one do not think this is the "best" decision for the clan world. You have a #1 and #2 clan merging, likely will make S&M unbeatable in any event.

While that is a valid concern, having done this before (in 2015 when The Spanking Monkeys went social and merged with us), it doesn't necessarily mean that. Throwing a bunch of people together who have not played as partners takes time to 'gel'. No clan on CC is unbeatable in any event.

[groovysmurf]

Not related to leadership drama. But I for one do not think this is the "best" decision for the clan world. You have a #1 and #2 clan merging, likely will make S&M unbeatable in any event. Add to the fact that there is one less competitive clan in the mix. Yes, I understand CC is dying as we speak and it is hard to recruit, but do you really think this is the right decision and won't hurt the clan scene in the future? TOFU was around since I was a weeeeee little boy and to just abandon a prestige clan is just not right imho... And take my opinion for what it is, knowing I'm not much to the clan world

This is a horrible blow to the clan world to lose the #1 ranked clan, but it's not a decision that was made overnight or one that was made easily by the members of TOFU. They had been struggling for quite awhile with not having enough members and they tried to recruit but didn't have much luck. At the same time S&M was having issues with finding people willing to run events, as many of those people had broken off to create and form LIONs. Both S&M and TOFU were to the point that both were considering turning social.

If Rockfist, Doc Brown and the other still active long-time members are going to S&M, then I would urge the mods to cede control back to CoF.

Regarding Chariot of Fire being allowed to try and revive TOFU, that is not a decision made by the CDs or other moderators; it's solely to the discretion of the TOFU leadership and members.

[Shannon Apple]

Not related to leadership drama. But I for one do not think this is the "best" decision for the clan world. You have a #1 and #2 clan merging, likely will make S&M unbeatable in any event. Add to the fact that there is one less competitive clan in the mix. Yes, I understand CC is dying as we speak and it is hard to recruit, but do you really think this is the right decision and won't hurt the clan scene in the future? TOFU was around since I was a weeeeee little boy and to just abandon a prestige clan is just not right imho... And take my opinion for what it is, knowing I'm not much to the clan world

With all due respect, and I do respect you Pix, I think this is crazy coming from a person in LIONS. At the time LIONS was formed, the leader's intention was to shut down both S&M and TOFU and recruit away our best, most active, players to essentially become THAT clan. Didn't happen the way they intended of course, but nonetheless.

And this did a lot of harm to both S&M and TOFU at the time. We had to spend a bit of time seeking out and recruiting amazing new people onto the clan scene. We did it this way as we didn't want to siphon people from other clans. To keep clans healthy, we need to be bringing in new blood and even training up players that have potential.

The drama from 2 years ago set this in motion and while this was held off for as long as we could, I feel that this move was inevitable for both clans.

EDIT: OMG, it's been closer to 3 years. Time flies.

[*Pixar*]

Not related to leadership drama. But I for one do not think this is the "best" decision for the clan world. You have a #1 and #2 clan merging, likely will make S&M unbeatable in any event. Add to the fact that there is one less competitive clan in the mix. Yes, I understand CC is dying as we speak and it is hard to recruit, but do you really think this is the right decision and won't hurt the clan scene in the future? TOFU was around since I was a weeeeee little boy and to just abandon a prestige clan is just not right imho... And take my opinion for what it is, knowing I'm not much to the clan world

With all due respect, and I do respect you Pix, I think this is crazy coming from a person in LIONS. At the time LIONS was formed, the leader's intention was to shut down both S&M and TOFU and recruit away our best, most active, players to essentially become THAT clan. Didn't happen the way they intended of course, but nonetheless.

And this did a lot of harm to both S&M and TOFU at the time. We had to spend a bit of time seeking out and recruiting amazing new people onto the clan scene. We did it this way as we didn't want to siphon people from other clans. To keep clans healthy, we need to be bringing in new blood and even training up players that have potential.

The drama from 2 years ago set this in motion and while this was held off for as long as we could, I feel that this move was inevitable for both clans.

EDIT: OMG, it's been closer to 3 years. Time flies.

No disrespect taken . I was one of the ones taken, from what I thought was a good friend MTIceman41. If I knew it would have turned out the way LIONS is now, I would have never left! Back then I thought it was just a way to add more clans to the mix, not knowing drama would come along with it

[xroads]

SO what is stopping COF from starting TOFU over again with the same name once the merger is done?

[lokisgal]

SO what is stopping COF from starting TOFU over again with the same name once the merger is done?

The short story is TOFU had a lot of discussions about what to do going forward and we eventually decided to keep TOFU as a social clan. COF is certainly welcome to start another clan but he would need to call it something else.

[Swimmerdude99]

SO what is stopping COF from starting TOFU over again with the same name once the merger is done?

The short story is TOFU had a lot of discussions about what to do going forward and we eventually decided to keep TOFU as a social clan. COF is certainly welcome to start another clan but he would need to call it something else.

My read from this and EW's post, is that at least two members don't think COF is best for the clan or welcome? That would counter what he's saying, which is that he owns/should own the clan and the two leaders are blocking him from getting to the members. The two stories don't seem to add up.

Out of 12 members moving to S&M that means that 4 of the 12 are against COF becoming involved? (two leaders, two members)

Is he allowed to join the social group? Is that only "blocked by the leaders?"

[fishydance]

SO what is stopping COF from starting TOFU over again with the same name once the merger is done?

The short story is TOFU had a lot of discussions about what to do going forward and we eventually decided to keep TOFU as a social clan. COF is certainly welcome to start another clan but he would need to call it something else.

My read from this and EW's post, is that at least two members don't think COF is best for the clan or welcome? That would counter what he's saying, which is that he owns/should own the clan and the two leaders are blocking him from getting to the members. The two stories don't seem to add up.

Out of 12 members moving to S&M that means that 4 of the 12 are against COF becoming involved? (two leaders, two members)

Is he allowed to join the social group? Is that only "blocked by the leaders?"

I wouldn't make assumptions based onthe limited information posted here. That said, yes the social group leaders can block anyone they wish from joining the group. That has been how usergroups (which social and clans are) have been managed from their inception. Just as I, as clan leader, can block someone from being admitted to our clan, the social group leader(s) can do likewise with their group. In the old days there were many social usergroups. Some were open admittance, but most are closed and admittance controlled by the leader(s).

EDIT: Here is the official information regarding usergroups from the CC Q&A

Where are the usergroups and how do I join one?
You can view all usergroups via the “Usergroups” link within your User Control Panel. If you would like to join one, proceed by clicking the appropriate button. Not all groups have open access, however. Some may require approval to join, some may be closed and some may even have hidden memberships. If the group is open, you can join it by clicking the appropriate button. If a group requires approval to join you may request to join by clicking the appropriate button. The user group leader will need to approve your request and may ask why you want to join the group. Please do not harass a group leader if they reject your request; they will have their reasons.

[Arama86n]

I am too old for this shit.
Have been trying hard to keep my mouth shut here.

A few comments though.

EW. Your post waste distasteful to say the least, and I thought better of you.
The rest of the clan has managed to keep composure, I suggest you find yours.

Regarding Swimmerdudes first post. We are in the same clan, but on the topic at hand we do not see eye to eye.
That is fine, just wanted to state that.

The reason I made the last part of my previous post is that TOFU has a long history, and I know that there are many people that put a tremendous amount of time and love into building this clan that are loyal to CoF, and would perhaps speak out if they were here. And considering the reasons some of them can't be here, I will do it.

That said, do I think CoF should try to rebuild TOFU? Unless There is a base of old players willing, no. It would not be TOFU. Let's call it a day.

Folks. CoF has not seen fit to purue this further here, so I suggest we just let it rest.
If you want to discuss the implicacations of the merger, fine. But if you were not in TOFU, CoF's importance to the clan is something that you cannot judge.

P.S. I have had zero contact with CoF for two years+
I have stated the reason for what I have written.

[Chariot of Fire]

CoF further throwing shade at "the two hopeless individuals" who have put as much of their heart and soul into this clan is downright disrespectful

You are right, and for that I apologise to the parties I maligned. It was the middle of the night and I let emotions get the better of me. Those guys actually did the best they could and have always been stand-up fellas. My beef was never with them but rather the process that saw their appointment and prompted my departure.

The remainder of your post isn't particularly constructive to the matters at hand - in fact it's rather defamatory and I don't appreciate it very much. Do please name the person I wanted to 'push out' because if I had they wouldn't be there. You know how I operated!

I left on two occasions and for two very good reasons, and on neither occasion did I let the clan down nor fulfil the obligations I had. But that's history - water under the bridge - and where we are now is CC's #1 clan having gone social and a majority of its members jumping ship to S&M. Is it unreasonable to want to keep it active/combatant? I don't think so. It was a project I poured years of my life into - I never expected it to come to this - and when I asked to be readmitted in order to save it my request was turned down. Not because TOFU planned to carry on without me, but because the merger with S&M was now the priority and there wasn't a place for me in that scenario.

Well, here we are. The foremost clan now 'social' which let's face it will never work.

What is the problem with me wanting to resurrect it? Why deny me that opportunity? Is it born of spite because I ruffled feathers? Everyone has gone, so I'll start it from scratch if needs must, but at least consider CC is a better place for having more active clans and that everyone who ever was an Odd Fellow would be happier to see it continue and not be resigned to history. Cheers

[IcePack]

One vote for "herbivores and carnivores"

This just in, “Sigil’s of Yesterday/Yesteryear” or SOY is CC’s newest clan?

[Arama86n]

Well, shit.

CoF, if anyone has the right to the TOFU name it is you and no other.
But they did good, went out as #1.
Why not leave it at that?
Considering the state of the site, and playerbase, wouldn't it be exeedingly hard to keep standards starting from scratch?
Why not just make a new clan and claw your way up.
It will take time, no need for that to go on TOFU record?

That said, I do question Kort/S&M being allowed to swallow yet another clan keep adding to their record.
TOFU was #1. S&M were #6
Perhaps it is time to start a new clan and let Kort rest?
Would be poetic. The old foes heading to the retirement home at the same time.

Taking the TOFU players and keeping future wins on the KORT record, is that right? Anyone squirming?

[Keefie]

But they did good, went out as #1.

But did they ? They went out after losing to the #3 clan.

[Swimmerdude99]

Is it unreasonable to want to keep it active/combatant? I don't think so. It was a project I poured years of my life into - I never expected it to come to this - and when I asked to be readmitted in order to save it my request was turned down. Not because TOFU planned to carry on without me, but because the merger with S&M was now the priority and there wasn't a place for me in that scenario.

Well, here we are. The foremost clan now 'social' which let's face it will never work.

What is the problem with me wanting to resurrect it? Why deny me that opportunity? Is it born of spite because I ruffled feathers? Everyone has gone, so I'll start it from scratch if needs must, but at least consider CC is a better place for having more active clans and that everyone who ever was an Odd Fellow would be happier to see it continue and not be resigned to history. Cheers

I wonder if two usergroups could be made - give the clan usergroup to COF, and then create TOFU2.0 or something as a social group that he doesn't own as a splitoff? Migrate forum topics that make sense to the social group? Then have COF add people interested in being in the OG TOFU usergroup/clan so he can rebuild.

[detlef]

If I knew it would have turned out the way LIONS is now, I would have never left!

Does this deserve unpacking? Did he really throw his current clan under the bus?