foundry process revamp

[GreecePwns]

Well I don't really post here, but I am interested in what new maps are in final forge and what's to come, so I might not be as qualified as others to answer.

I think there should be 4 groups of moderators, and they can only put their opinion on their group's specialty. Obviously, other users can input anything, but mods would be considered only slightly more important.

Gameplay mods: A group of 5-7. When a beta image is made, these mods will concentrate on the gameplay. We don't want to go too deep into the images yet, because that could take a while to edit a great image. Once all issues are finished, only the gameplay mods can decide to move it to the graphics stage.

Graphics mods: Also a group of 5-7. Once the gameplay is finished, the gameplay mods leave the map to graphics mods to critique.

XML-specific mods: Maybe a group of 3. All look over the xml for a map, and when all can agree that it is correct, it is moved to the playtest stage.

Playtesters: Not reallly mods, but a group of users interested in the map are allowed to playtest it and report all errors the xml mods missed (just in case)

So foundry stages would be:
Beta Image/User Interest Poll Stage
Gameplay Stage
Graphics Stage
Final Forge/XML Review Stage
Playtest Stage
Quench

This may be a bit slow, but it ensures all maps are of great quality IMO.

[DiM]

DiM - this topic seems to have turned from a useful debate into a personal slanging match against Keyogi (and Andy a bit)...

If you want anything to be done about it - then I suggest you stop with the personal slurs...

FYI - I voted option 2.

C.

i'm just posting my opinions. i don't like how the process is going and i'm stating it clearly. when something goes wrong you try and identify the problem in order to find the solution.
i'm not going all out on keyogi or andy but since they are the people responsible for this process they are inevitably drawn into this. they have done mistakes i have done mistakes other map makers did them too.
heck i even said i'm a stubborn son of a bitch that sometimes goes overboard. that's true. but i always have nothing but the best intentions. yes perhaps in some cases i lack diplomacy and i state my opinion too clearly instead of using hints and winks and nudges in the right direction. i'm not the kind that gives a bump in the right direction and then waits to see if everything goes well. i like fast and effective actions. that's me. i don't want people to love me heck i don't even want people to accept me i just want them to listen to what i have to say and ponder for a minute. "hey perhaps he is right. he doesn't say it nicely like i'd like to hear it and this annoys me but perhaps he is right"
the perfect example of how i act is the terminator experiment. a solution was suggested numerous times but nothing was done. all it took to get a remedy was a harsh but effective decision i made along with a few people that helped. yes some people were hurt. apologies have been given and those that wanted rematches got them and in some cases they got lots of points. and think in the long run how many people have been helped.

[Kaplowitz]

DiM - this topic seems to have turned from a useful debate into a personal slanging match against Keyogi (and Andy a bit)...

If you want anything to be done about it - then I suggest you stop with the personal slurs...

FYI - I voted option 2.

C.

yea, i agree. I doubt its easy to be in the position of Keyogi, he justs wants to improve the quality of the maps. Im sure that if DiM was a mod, he would also give some people a hard time, and tend to favor certain map-makers.

I also think that the foundry needs some help. The banner is a good idea, ive seen it on other sites as well. THis would attract new people and potential maps. I also like the idea of an xml mod, to help out. Coleman's idea is a great one. Also, just remember: mod is short for moderator. They keep the place from becoming chaos. Some people believe that the foundry has already reached this stage, so some sort of action should be done.

btw, i read every post in the foundry, i just dont post in the topics very often. so i do kinda know whats goin on.

[DiM]

DiM - this topic seems to have turned from a useful debate into a personal slanging match against Keyogi (and Andy a bit)...

If you want anything to be done about it - then I suggest you stop with the personal slurs...

FYI - I voted option 2.

C.

yea, i agree. I doubt its easy to be in the position of Keyogi, he justs wants to improve the quality of the maps. Im sure that if DiM was a mod, he would also give some people a hard time, and tend to favor certain map-makers.

if somebody asked me to become a mod (a big LOL at this) i would kindly decline it. part because i don't have the time and part because i have my own flaws. being stubborn and having a big ego being probably the most important.

Also, just remember: mod is short for moderator. They keep the place from becoming chaos. Some people believe that the foundry has already reached this stage, so some sort of action should be done.

that's precisely why i felt the need to open this topic. in many threads there are countless discussions on this subject and i think it's time something is done.

[MR. Nate]

5. Lack of beer. I think some of the challenges in the process are the inevitable outcome of text only forum debates. People tend to rub each other the wrong way over time when they can't see the arched eyebrow or the crooked smile that goes with a particular comment. Since we can't get together for a beer, hash it out and move on I'd suggest that mods, map makers and foundry visitors all need to be extra polite and crystal clear in their foundry comments. A little civility goes a long way in these kinds of things.

This is SO true on every level.

other maps are slowed down for no specific reason. actually the reasons are well known just unspoken.

I think this may be a big chunk of the problem. When we look at someone else's map, we all see the problem, but we're afraid of offending the cartographer (because we can't buy him a beer) and so nothing gets said, but everyone (except the cartographer) knows why it's stopped.


Can I add to GreecePwns list that I'd like to see an executive committee of 3 with the authority to kill any map at any time. Too often crap gets thrown out, and no one says the awful truth that the thing needs to be scrapped and started from scratch. An axe-wielding executive committee, (presumably headed by Andy and/or Keyogi) could go a long way to keeping the number of maps to a reasonable number, and allow the foundry to focus it's attention on the maps which have the most potential.

[DiM]

other maps are slowed down for no specific reason. actually the reasons are well known just unspoken.

I think this may be a big chunk of the problem. When we look at someone else's map, we all see the problem, but we're afraid of offending the cartographer (because we can't buy him a beer) and so nothing gets said, but everyone (except the cartographer) knows why it's stopped.

actually i was referring to something else there. i don't think maps are slowed down because people are afraid to hurt the feeling of the map maker. heck no in fact i do believe 99% of the people are always keen on telling exactly what they think of the map regardless of what the map makers feelings are. remember klobber and his honey map? or my favorite the plasagna map a true classic. so again people share their thoughts and nobody holds back on a feeling to protect the map maker.

Can I add to GreecePwns list that I'd like to see an executive committee of 3 with the authority to kill any map at any time. Too often crap gets thrown out, and no one says the awful truth that the thing needs to be scrapped and started from scratch. An axe-wielding executive committee, (presumably headed by Andy and/or Keyogi) could go a long way to keeping the number of maps to a reasonable number, and allow the foundry to focus it's attention on the maps which have the most potential.

NO WAY. this would probably cause even more problems. "never give too much power to a single person or you'll live just long enough to regret it"
i don't know if this is a famous quote but it sure sounds like one and it perfectly applies here.

[yeti_c]

Try this one...

Power Corrupts - Absolute Power, Corrupts Absolutely.

C.

[DiM]

Try this one...

Power Corrupts - Absolute Power, Corrupts Absolutely.

C.

yep nice one. indeed most people change when they are given power. it's in the human nature. sometimes people change into something better. (i had a neighbor that won at the lottery and when he did he came at each apartment and brought flowers to the ladies and bottles of wine to the gents. this coming from a guy that never saluted you and never exchanged a word with anybody, a guy that was hated almost by everybody) but most of the time people are changed into something worse.

[DiM]

i see we have just 2 votes that say the foundry is ok and doesn't need to change. could it be those 2 votes come from andy and keyogi?

PS: i'm joking of course i know keyogi is away so that leaves just andy and another guy. perhaps a multi of andy

[t.e.c]

5. Lack of beer. I think some of the challenges in the process are the inevitable outcome of text only forum debates. People tend to rub each other the wrong way over time when they can't see the arched eyebrow or the crooked smile that goes with a particular comment. Since we can't get together for a beer, hash it out and move on I'd suggest that mods, map makers and foundry visitors all need to be extra polite and crystal clear in their foundry comments. A little civility goes a long way in these kinds of things.

i think this is the best thing said in this thread.

prove me wrong people, prove me wrong!

[Kaplowitz]

i see we have just 2 votes that say the foundry is ok and doesn't need to change. could it be those 2 votes come from andy and keyogi?

PS: i'm joking of course i know keyogi is away so that leaves just andy and another guy. perhaps a multi of andy

On a final note lets just leave the map foundry as it is and move

A traitor!

[hulmey]

What are you talking about!! People tend to voice their opinon more on the internet than in real life....

Im not a map maker but am a regular here and am never afraid to voice my opinon be it right or wrong. People see things differently after all.

I think that the best solution would be to have a designated group of mixed backgrounds playing a couple of games before the map is released. Now listen carefully , most map makers have backed this plan from WM to DIM and this would actually slow down the process but also give it some professionalism at the same time.... This also proves that map makers dont just want to chure out maps but if they can see progress then they are staisfied....

Coming onto gimil's portugal map (which i dont particularly like and i have never commented, but i still follwed the) this should have been quenched along time ago....Keyogi was made a modertor so thatpeople wouldnt have to wait for ages and so the process could move on with out the ever busy Andy. It just doesnt sem to have happened....

Maybe we could another moderator to assist the Asst moderator to the moderator

[DiM]

i see we have just 2 votes that say the foundry is ok and doesn't need to change. could it be those 2 votes come from andy and keyogi?

PS: i'm joking of course i know keyogi is away so that leaves just andy and another guy. perhaps a multi of andy

On a final note lets just leave the map foundry as it is and move

A traitor!

let's tie him to a pole and burn him

[benjikat]

A think the intentions of this thread are very good, but that it may fail it's purpose because
a) it has got a little personal
b) DiM has tried too hard to keep it active, making it seem too much like an individual crusade

5. Lack of beer. I think some of the challenges in the process are the inevitable outcome of text only forum debates. People tend to rub each other the wrong way over time when they can't see the arched eyebrow or the crooked smile that goes with a particular comment. Since we can't get together for a beer, hash it out and move on I'd suggest that mods, map makers and foundry visitors all need to be extra polite and crystal clear in their foundry comments. A little civility goes a long way in these kinds of things.

This is so so true and is especially true when dealing with a creative process. Most creative people (and I know I work in video/TV production) have very fragile egos and the harshness of the written word in phpBB is hard to soften. It's hard enough to say to someone's face - "just try this please" which cannot be anything other than a criticism of their previous decisions - and that's when they are being paid - in this instance map makers are dong it purely for the love of it. So they need to be lovingly appreciated - very hard via a text input box.

Map Testing - it seems crazy that there isn't a beta testing area for maps already - from what I can tell all it needs is tourney priviledges for a map testing committee plus access to set up games on beta maps - we could organise the rest between us.

I also volunteer to test maps, as figuring out new maps, especially ones that other people think are "crazy" like AoM, is by far my favourite aspect of CC.

Over emphasis on graphics - For me a map design is about territory layout, connections, balance / tension of bonuses, use of new features (I am especially looking forward to "objectives" being used on a few maps) etc. The graphics just make these things easier to digest on a casual basis. I personally think that most maps should start as a scribble on the back of an envelope, which is then scanned in and given rough army positioning - enough to enable real playtest games before there has been a large emotional investment in the graphic look etc.

Most of us aren't graphic experts, and I know enough about Photoshop/Illustrator to make a map for CC to a reasonable standard, but I would be so slow doing it that changes (especially gameplay related ones) would really irritate me. This is the main reason I haven't yet shared any of my map ideas.

Anyway - hope something changes around here so that we all get to play as many funky new maps as often as possible.

[DiM]

What are you talking about!! People tend to voice their opinon more on the internet than in real life....

Im not a map maker but am a regular here and am never afraid to voice my opinon be it right or wrong. People see things differently after all.

true and every opinion is more than welcome be it right or wrong only debating will sort this. i'm actually curious who are the 3 other persons that voted no (besides you). i want to hear their opinion because so far ALL people that posted want something changed (including hulmey). let's see the other side post maybe they have solid arguments. maybe they can change everything. remember every opinion counts.

I think that the best solution would be to have a designated group of mixed backgrounds playing a couple of games before the map is released. Now listen carefully , most map makers have backed this plan from WM to DIM and this would actually slow down the process but also give it some professionalism at the same time.... This also proves that map makers dont just want to chure out maps but if they can see progress then they are staisfied....

i don't think it would slow down the process in worst case it would take the same amount of time but the final result would be much better thanks to the testing. plus what's the worst part when creating a map? it's the part where everybody yells quench but there's no mod in sight and when he finally shows up (after a few weeks) he either asks for a changed that's already been discussed or they ask for links to the images. i've seen maps in FF that had no feedback and no modifications were done and yet andy and keyogi came and asked for links 3-4 times despite the fact the SAME links could have been found several pages behind. one other thing i noticed is when a map maker posts the images and then the xml link. and after that andy comes and asks for the links to the images. is it so hard to right click on an image and copy paste the link from there?

Coming onto gimil's portugal map (which i dont particularly like and i have never commented, but i still follwed the) this should have been quenched along time ago....Keyogi was made a modertor so thatpeople wouldnt have to wait for ages and so the process could move on with out the ever busy Andy. It just doesnt sem to have happened....

yes it probably has one of the longest final forges in history (almost 2 months) and yet nothing happens and i don't predict anything happening in the near future despite the fact that in this time frame many other maps have been quenched.

Maybe we could another moderator to assist the Asst moderator to the moderator

i do have my reserves about an extra moderator. i think we're fine at this point. all we need is a rethinking of how the process should work.

and if the beta testing team is introduced i am a firm believer that andy and keyogi would simply need to act as simple users that read the foundry for fun and only get involved when the beta testing is done and they are announced by the beta testing team that the map is fine. then they would take a good look analyze a bit and quench the map.

[DiM]

i have a dream....

a dream about a foundry where lots and lots of people come and share their thoughts, a place where map makers can hone their skills, a place where we leave aside our egos and work together as friends, a realm of feedback updates and testing, where every idea no matter how crazy it sounds is fully embraced and tried, where everybody is free to express his feelings and most of all a place that regulates itself by the sheer quality and common sense of the people involved. where the moderator is just another one of your friends and the only thing that separates him from the rest is that he has a green name and he's the one you turn to when you want a poll removed or something stickied.

yeah it's only a dream but dreams and ambition fuel the evolution. i have the dream i have the ambition all i need is to try.

A think the intentions of this thread are very good, but that it may fail it's purpose because
a) it has got a little personal
b) DiM has tried too hard to keep it active, making it seem too much like an individual crusade

yes it got a little personal and yes it might seem like a personal crusade but that's just because i put passion into it. i love to make maps and i have tons of ideas. i have started like 50 maps so far and most of them have died in the infant stage on my pc. why because every time i come up with something new and exciting i come on the forums and want to make a thread about it. but then i look around the foundry and see how the process runs and i get a reality slam wake-up. i delete all i have written and go back to my desktop and move the idea folder in the abandoned section.

at some point i even thought of another way to make my ideas accepted. listen to this cause it's really funny.

i have an account on lux delux. i thought i should start making each of my ideas and turn them into a map on lux delux then come here with a link to the maps i made there and show their rating. i thought lux delux would be a perfect testing place for new things. but then i think about it and realize how crazy it sounds. do i really need to do this to convince the people here a concept is good?

[Kaplowitz]

. do i really need to do this to convince the people here a concept is good?

Yes. You do.

I really want to see your other maps. I think World 3.0 actaully turned some people on.

[DiM]

. do i really need to do this to convince the people here a concept is good?

Yes. You do.

I really want to see your other maps. I think World 3.0 actaully turned some people on.

i meant do i really need to go make the map put it on lux delux wait until a good sample of games are played and come here showing the map saying "look the map has had over 1000 games on lux delux and has a rating of 8.7 so i think the concept is good"

i don't think so i actually think any map idea should be embraced by the foundry and given a chance instead of being shot down.

as for my ideas heh i'm sure some of them if not all of them will never see the daylight.

i don't think people are ready to play a game of risk where they represent a form of life and in each turn they evolve until they reach the final objective of the game evolving into the supreme life form.

unfortunatelly all my ideas are impossible at this point. either because of the size restrictions or because of the xml restrictions. if you look in the xml thread i have some xml modifications i suggested a few months ago. to this date they haven't even been looked at to say if they are possible or if they are rejected or accepted. when that thread was made i had so many hopes i was instantly flooded with ideas of new gameplay concepts only to realize i was a fool to believe all that.

[oaktown]

if the regulars at this forum spent as much time actually looking over and giving feedback to maps as they do discussing the workings of the foundry itself, maps would be completed in half the time. This thread already has more posts than map projects that have been in the works for weeks.

While it feels like a democracy with all of these voices, it isn't one. It's a Lack-ocracy. You want to play his games, you should play by his rules. And the rules will change as demand changes - I suspect lack understands the workings of a free market. And we're all free to go and play Lux if we prefer the options there.

Six months ago when this was last hashed out it led to the creation of sub-forums and the naming of a second moderator, Keyogi. Both were much needed improvements at the time, and as the foundry has continued to grow additional steps could lead to further improvement. I like a lot of suggestions that have come out of this post, including:
• expert moderators or mod deputies who focus on particular aspects of map creation
• a play-testing phase for maps that have been quenched but may have glitches, etc.
• more tough love for crappy maps
• mapmakers being 1) aware of the mapmaking guidelines, and 2) open to the idea that sometimes they just aren't creating a good product
• more beer.

For the last three we don't need the permission of moderators' to make them happen.

Now click out of here and go leave feedback on a map!

[Qwert]

Coming onto gimil's portugal map (which i dont particularly like and i have never commented, but i still follwed the) this should have been quenched along time ago....Keyogi was made a modertor so thatpeople wouldnt have to wait for ages and so the process could move on with out the ever busy Andy. It just doesnt sem to have happened....

Agree,process is more slow now then before Keyogu whas get these promotion.

[GreecePwns]

How about my idea?

If the process goes too fast, we could be putting out a bunch of crap maps, and end up like landgrab (and we all know that is not good at all).

[edbeard]

Making scapegoats for problems doesn't help anything. Like Oaktown said the real 'problem' is people not giving feedback. With the amount of maps being made and the amount of people around to actually give feedback or moderate, I'd say the process is doing fairly well.

Of course, things like beta testing would be a huge help, but honestly members can do a lot too. When giving feedback treat yourself as if you are a moderator. Think of the standards that Andy and Keyogi have. Use the patience they show. Be supportive when necessary. When telling someone something doesn't work, explain why very clearly and give some possible solutions.

I think people need to stop taking things personally a bit. It's not a perfect system. Some people are going to get faster feedback than others. When a request comes in late in the stage of the game, don't freak out about it. Just keep a cool head and give an effort to implement the change and/or explain why it won't work.

Realize that it's not a democracy, but that in cases where you feel one or two people are holding you back with a silly request. Put up a poll that neutrally explains the two sides. If there's an extreme vote either way then you should know what to do. If it's a very close vote then maybe something else entirely should be done, or since you are the cartographer just keep the option that YOU prefer. I don't see anything wrong with that in that type of situation.

[hulmey]

Ed -do you honestly believe that Andy or Keyogi has ever expressed themselves clearly or taken the tme to go indepth with a particular answer. Pull the other one it plays jingle bells.

They both post short posts and Andy usually posts in short and sweet riddles leavng you to wonder what he is on about!!! I was rather shocked to see him leave a graphical explanation to qwert recently LOL.

Oh by the way him i voted for the middle option because you can always improve!!!! So i dont know who the other 5 who voted for NO were because if they think nothing can be improved then they are very easy people to please and who have no creative imagination whatsoever

[DiM]

Oh by the way him i voted for the middle option because you can always improve!!!! So i dont know who the other 5 who voted for NO were because if they think nothing can be improved then they are very easy people to please and who have no creative imagination whatsoever

it's DiM not him

anyway if you didn't vote then who the heck are the 5 person that are please. i'd really want to hear why they are pleased and why do they think nothing can be improved. perhaps they're on to something perhaps they are right. let's hear it guys.

[gimil]

Oh by the way him i voted for the middle option because you can always improve!!!! So i dont know who the other 5 who voted for NO were because if they think nothing can be improved then they are very easy people to please and who have no creative imagination whatsoever

it's DiM not him

anyway if you didn't vote then who the heck are the 5 person that are please. i'd really want to hear why they are pleased and why do they think nothing can be improved. perhaps they're on to something perhaps they are right. let's hear it guys.

mod squad