foundry process revamp

[Aerial Attack]

Obviously Coleman's Foundry Newsletter answers many of these questions in the first post. I noticed that the last update to the Developmental Atlas was over a month ago (September 9). Maybe if these two were somehow merged?

And, my question - was more of an idea. Why not have a review process (say a week or so after a map is abandoned) to figure out why that particular map failed: game play; graphics; interest; mapmaker time/skill constraints; etc. And, have a mod post this at the end of the [locked?] thread - or maybe even in the Original Post (can a mod edit the original post, I see that they can add/finish polls).

[AndyDufresne]

The "Edited at X" doesn't always work. We've got a number of other posts in the CC Forum that get updated regularly, and the edit says other wise.

And a review process would be nice, but I don't want to stretch C.A. work obligations too much. It's something to consider, but not for a while.


--Andy

[Aerial Attack]

Can you edit the stickied post [Map Making Tools] to include (free?) hosting services?

Image Hosting Services: Photo Bucket or Image Shack

File Hosting Services: File Den or Send Space

If anyone else knows of anything ... please add here

EDIT: My idea of merging the Foundry News with the Developmental Atlas was wrong. Instead the Developmental Atlas should be merged with the Index to New Map Ideas. Realistically, you only need 1 sticky for both. That way - when (er, if) someone looks at the New Map Ideas Index, they can see it's current status (if it already exists).

So you would now basically need a table like this:

Name | New Ideas Post link | Developmental Status (if applicable) | Developmental Link (if applicable)
Galaxy | Galaxy | Map Foundry | Galactic Conquest
Soviet Union | Soviet Union | Map Ideas | Soviet Union
War In The Pacific | War In The Pacific | |

Obviously it would need to be aligned better. I think you can save it as an Excel spread sheet and copy/paste. The only caveat being that you would need to save the links as BBCode.

[DiM]

AndyDufresne wrote:

d. the map must have some honest and interested discussion. If no one seems to support your idea or it lacks much appeal, it most likely won’t make it to the next stage.

I have a question about this. How does one determine what the proper amount of discussion is? How does one determine if there truly is enough interest for a map to go forward?

For example, if Galactic Conquest (used because I am familiar with it's developmental process) gets moved into the Final Forge fairly soon - that would be a good thing as ApophisNL has put in a lot of work. But, how much interest does it really have? As far as I can tell, fewer than 10 people have said anything one way or the other [Optimus Prime (several), Marvaddin (1), Night Strike (4), unriggable (several), jako (3), mibi (1), Neutrino (1), Gnome (3), bryguy (1 - useless), and Aerial Attack (several)]. I didn't include ApophisNL or the Foundry mods (Coleman and cairnswk) - the number in quotes is how many comments they've made on the map. I realize that I've made a LOT of comments and might have dominated the conversation. But, we really have no idea how people will receive the map.

How many people need to vote on/post about a map to meet the standard mentioned above? I have no worries about the quality of this map, I'm just asking how interest is determined.

very good point you have here aerial.

i'm especially worried about this matter since the system is not perfect and can be screwed easily.

i'm talking about the honest and interested discussion part. who decides if a discussion or the votes are really honest and interested?

as i posted in the crossword 2.0 map the foundry has a few regulars that vote constantly and give feedback on maps and they usually form a pretty good background of voices and opinions that allow the creation of maps and perfect them.
well the problem is that there are few such people compared to the total number of users this site has.

well the crossword map has been advertised on the chat and after talking around i found out southerner is a common chat user and a liked person there. thus after publicly talking about his map there almost all the foundry regulars came and voted and posted in his map thread. including the chat mods. everybody is entitled to an opinion yes but when a lot of people that never been to the foundry before come and vote yes on a map without having any idea on how a map is made the foundry process is disrupted.

in theory any map can pass easily through the foundry process if it meets the basic technical guidelines like size restrictions and army overlapping. the gameplay graphics and theme are all subjective things that are carefully analyzed during each map creation and are polished until a good map is produced or until the map is abandoned. the problem is that only the foundry regulars know how to do this and the second problem is that usually decisions are made based on the majority. if that majority is formed of foundry regulars then the map will be great. but if that majority is made of people that never came to the foundry then there is the potential of a disastrous map.

i propose the next scenario:
i make a map with horrible graphics and horrible gameplay and theme.
then i ask all my buddies to vote yes. i reckon i can get 30-40 votes easily. i meet the requirements for size and army and anything technical i meet the requirements for support so the map is moved to main foundry. i do 1 or 2 crappy updates and put a poll asking if it's ready for FF. i ask my buddies to vote again and get instant majority. the map gets FF since i can easily dispose of any gameplay or graphic requests by putting a poll and asking my buddies to vote how i want. and in the end i get quench. and everybody gets to play a map of my with 11 terits and a 500 bonus for holding a smelly zone.

[yeti_c]

Scratch and Sniff maps!? Interesting!!

C.

[oaktown]

DiM, you and I both know that the polls in the foundry forum are virtually meaningless, especially the polls that ask "should I continue?" or "is this a good idea?" Those polls routinely result in 85% - 95% approval ratings for decent projects, and 50%-60% approval ratings for projects that have absolutely nothing going for them.

And I disagree with your point that most decisions are made by the majority - I would argue that ALL decisions are made by the mapmaker based on input and feedback from a handful of interested individuals, while the vast majority are playing games without ever even looking at the progress of a map. I've never had a change made on my maps by anybody but myself.

I think it was Descartes who said that truths are more likely to be discovered by one man than by nation.

Like everything else about the Foundry, the "honest and interested discussion" piece is purely subjective and not something you can accomplish through a couple of polls. Somebody - Andy or a CA - has to determine if discussion is honest and interested. You might not like this, but I'll say it yet again: CC is not a democracy, we are not citizens with voting rights, Coleman and Cairnswk (bless their hearts) are not democratically elected representatives of the people. That's the way it is, and if somebody doesn't like it they can go and play Lux.

[DiM]

DiM, you and I both know that the polls in the foundry forum are virtually meaningless, especially the polls that ask "should I continue?" or "is this a good idea?" Those polls routinely result in 85% - 95% approval ratings for decent projects, and 50%-60% approval ratings for projects that have absolutely nothing going for them.

And I disagree with your point that most decisions are made by the majority - I would argue that ALL decisions are made by the mapmaker based on input and feedback from a handful of interested individuals, while the vast majority are playing games without ever even looking at the progress of a map. I've never had a change made on my maps by anybody but myself.

I think it was Descartes who said that truths are more likely to be discovered by one man than by nation.

Like everything else about the Foundry, the "honest and interested discussion" piece is purely subjective and not something you can accomplish through a couple of polls. Somebody - Andy or a CA - has to determine if discussion is honest and interested. You might not like this, but I'll say it yet again: CC is not a democracy, we are not citizens with voting rights, Coleman and Cairnswk (bless their hearts) are not democratically elected representatives of the people. That's the way it is, and if somebody doesn't like it they can go and play Lux.

at the beginning of your post you disagreed with me and in the end you agreed.

i know it's not a democracy and it will never be one and i don't want it to be one. i want the foundry to be a something like an aristocracy or some sort of organization where the decisions are made by a few people considered the brightest. have 10 people that can make or break a map. people with extensive knowledge about map making (graphics gameplay xml) and within that small group a democratic organization.

we already have an elitist form of ruling here impersonated by andy coleman and cairnswk and they are the only ones that can take certain decisions but they can be forced by the masses to do something and that is in some cases wrong.

i don't know if i'm explaining this right but i think there should be a balance found somehow. too few people in charge with absolute power (dictatorship_ and we'll get crappy maps made only how those few people envision them. too many people in charge (democracy) and we'll get a mess where crappy maps with artificial support are boosted forward at the detriment of other (perhaps better) maps with less advertisement.
there should be a leading group that is large enough to permit lots of different opinions and visions but at the same time small enough and selective enough to prevent bad opinions and attitudes.

am i coherent? did i manage to say something comprehensible? i hope so cause i'm really tired.


PS: btw all decisions aren't made by the map maker even the rules say the map maker has to obey everything the majority asks or dismiss them with proper arguments. if 30 people come in the berlin thread and ask for a bright and colorful map you will have to do it like that or abandon the map. you won't be able to argue it's better like it is now since 30 people ask for color.

[Aerial Attack]

I think that 30 people voting one way or the other in a poll definitely has it's influence. But, yeah - the votes need to be justified.

Here's my personal take on what constitutes interest:

Map Ideas:
1. The map maker should present the initial concept.
2. At least 4 people need to provide constructive feedback on this idea.
3. The map maker makes updates based on those comments.
4. Steps 2 and 3 are repeated (meaning 3 versions)
5. Mapmaker now runs a poll to gauge interest in the map. [I realize that those 3 versions were a lot of work, but - by approximation - it only represents less than 10% of the actual work to be done.]
6. The results of the poll need to be positive and encouraging (i.e. at least 40 yes votes with a 67% approval rating - this means you need at least 60 sets of eyeballs to view your map).
7a. A positive vote is by no means a guarantee that your map will move forward. It still needs to demonstrate unique game play, graphics, and/or other variations in order to progress.
7b. A negative vote (or small turnout) would be a huge indicator that there could potentially be something wrong.
In either case, it's completely up to the mods (who would obviously talk with the mapmaker) whether it should be continued and what needs to happen for it to do so.

Map Foundry:
1. Constructive feedback/Mapmaker updates until at least 8 unique commentators have had their opinions heard and resolved.
2. Both Large and Small versions of the map should be settled upon here.
3. All other non-XML issues should be resolved here.
4. A beginning effort at the XML should be made here.

Final Forge: (comments here should be mostly from mods or people who have made a significant prior contribution to the map)
1. The XML should be finalized and any graphical/game play tweaks resulting from XML problems should be addressed
2. If issues are found, depending on the severity - the map can be moved back to Map Foundry.
3. The map should be ready for Approval/Quenching. The entire amount of time spent in Final Forge (prior to Quenching) should not be more than two weeks - 1 month max.

No matter what, Mapmakers need to advertise their map (and the Foundry in general) as often as they can. Foundry regulars need to do the same.

EDIT1: Added section 7 to Map Ideas part

EDIT2/3: What I have written is very similar to the way maps actually move through the foundry as is. The biggest difference is that I think there need to be outside eyeballs on the maps before they move from ideas to foundry. You surely wouldn't want to put up a poll to decide if it goes to Final Forge - at that point you've made anywhere from 15-30 versions.

[oaktown]

I don't like hard and fast rules, like 40 votes, specific time periods, or a predetermined number of people commenting. If we just left all decisions up to numbers you could get any piece of crap quenched, as per DiM's example above. Again, if a lot of lousy maps is what you want, go play Lux.

We may have a dictatorship here, but I believe it is a benevolent, socially responsible dictatorship. More rules just pushes us toward totalitarianism. Fewer rules pushes us toward anarchy.

Our constitution could begin with the notion that all maps are NOT created equal, just as mapmakers are not created equal. It's unlikely that I'll ever create a first draft that looks as good as a Widowmakers first draft, but on the flip side I am savvy enough with Photoshop that I can demonstrate my ability to create a final product. And so no two maps will ever go through the exact same process at the same rate.

I stand behind my statement that the mapmaker has the final say in what goes into his/her map. If I feel strongly enough about something I will continue to press my case until the body sees my logic, as was the case with the color in the Berlin map. The trade off was that it may have delayed production and it may cost my map players, but again that is the decision I was faced with as a mapmaker.

[DiM]

I don't like hard and fast rules, like 40 votes, specific time periods, or a predetermined number of people commenting. If we just left all decisions up to numbers you could get any piece of crap quenched, as per DiM's example above. Again, if a lot of lousy maps is what you want, go play Lux.

i agree with this one. simple numbers means that if anybody that can convince 40 people to vote for him can produce 100 crappy maps in a matter of days.

We may have a dictatorship here, but I believe it is a benevolent, socially responsible dictatorship. More rules just pushes us toward totalitarianism. Fewer rules pushes us toward anarchy.

exactly like i said above. a balance must be found. a not so small and not so large comitee that makes decisions offers feedback and generally roams around the foundry helping may be the solution.

Our constitution could begin with the notion that all maps are NOT created equal, just as mapmakers are not created equal. It's unlikely that I'll ever create a first draft that looks as good as a Widowmakers first draft, but on the flip side I am savvy enough with Photoshop that I can demonstrate my ability to create a final product. And so no two maps will ever go through the exact same process at the same rate.

yes of course map makers and maps aren't and will never be equal. each of us is unique and has different styles, different skills and different imaginations. but this doesn't mean a crappy map should be tolerated just because the author can't draw.

I stand behind my statement that the mapmaker has the final say in what goes into his/her map. If I feel strongly enough about something I will continue to press my case until the body sees my logic, as was the case with the color in the Berlin map. The trade off was that it may have delayed production and it may cost my map players, but again that is the decision I was faced with as a mapmaker.

and i stand behind my opinion that you are wrong here. the map maker doesn't have the final say. it all depends on the debate. if it's something minor and it has to do with the flavor of the map or something like that and the map maker can bring some reasons for this then yes he can do it his own way but if he wants to do something stupid then he will either have to do like the majority says or abandon the map.

what if i insist on AoR that i add the image of my underpants in the background. if i insist and don't want to change my mind then i have to abbandon the map because everybody will say it's stupid.

[oaktown]

what if i insist on AoR that i add the image of my underpants in the background. if i insist and don't want to change my mind then i have to abbandon the map because everybody will say it's stupid.

Certainly you can take that stance, DiM. And I'll say again, that the decision is yours. If you want to devote your time and energy to trying to get a map with your underpants approved you should do it. I'd suggest you have some damned good arguments for why your underpants are appropriate, and be prepared for a long battle that may never result in a quenching. If you abandon the project, that is your decision, but nobody is holding a gun to your head making you delete the underpants.

There's one area in which we are very much alike, DiM - we're both long-winded.

[rebelman]

incorrect. A very small amount of the active gamers acctually visit the forum in general. This means they are not aware of the foundrys existance. If it was made aware to them that there was a section of hte site dedicated to map production it may convince more players to leave input

This is a two way process as I mentioned before if you want more of us to give our input we need to be listened to as well and entitled to give an opinion. I have highlighted previously the reaction I as one fairly thick skinned outsider has got when I visit here by several of the regulars and ironically from the mods. who I believe should rise above this kind of behavior. Ironically the point I raised which had me heaped in abuse has been acted upon now but if more of us ordinary gamers were welcomed into the process items like those red numbers could be nipped in the bed as playability not looks would be our primary concern. It was only a short couple of weeks ago that I highlighted in the abuse forum the reaction I got when I posted on here and I'm afraid to say things have got worse instead of better.

An outsider in the shape of Southy dared to suggest a new map and to add further insult to injury he invited the views of ordinary gamers to come along and comment on his work not just the foundry regulars he wanted a cross section of the site to comment on his work. The reaction on the thread below speaks for itself. Yes people were critical of his work, extremely so in my opinion considering this is his first attempt at map making on here but that is fair enough and that is what this place is all about.

But my issue is not with the map or the comments on the map, it is the reaction of some led by DiM who "named" those that invaded the foundry on this thread, when all these people were doing was commenting on a map having been asked by Southy for their input. below are some of the comments on this thread that was started by an outsider and dared to attract input from outsiders who will have nothing to do with this map other than play it when/if it eventually gets out.

so despite all these things the map has support in the poll and 14 people voted it's a good idea.

funny thing about this number. 14. exactly 14 people voted in the poll for troy mclure's real estate map. and that was an idea far better than this and had far better graphics. and yet it was abbandoned for lack of support.
what's the foundry coming to?

i mean no disrespect to you or spinwizard but this is probably the shittiest project i've seen in a long time (since plasagna map and that was more of a joke. this is serious.).
we have maps like Dungeon of Draknor that are far better regarding the theme the gameplay the graphics. well basically far better in every aspect and they get 5 times less feedback than this. really people let's get serious for a moment here. crosswords is the crappiest map ever made. do we really need another one?

all of a sudden something like 10-15 people with less than 10 posts came and gave support for this map. i don't get it. what did you guys do? send pms to everybody in this game?

people like these people that never posted in the foundry

iConquer - 7 posts - 5 in this thread
Cherry pepsi? - 12 posts - 4 in this thread
AJ__the_one - 16 posts - 1 in this thread
truly_tasha - 5 posts - 2 in this thread
timthenavigator - 1 posts - 1 in this thread
Shrinky - 39 posts - 2 in this thread
zsp - 33 posts - 1 in this thread

plus people that have lots of posts but same thing. never posted in the foundry before.
KoE_Sirius, bedub1, clapper011, Big Yuma Ripper.

all of the above are for the first time in the foundry and some of them for the first time in the forum and they all come in this exact thread and say the map is great. how come?

you may of had enought support to get this thread out of the ideas but will the same support substain you through the process? will they stay with you through final forge? I dont seem doing so. This is when you are going to require the support of the foundry regulars who know what there talking about and WANT to help you do the right thing, again i dont see them giving you much support either because these sorts of factors have been tested many a time.

i wouldn't be surprised if the 22 people that voted no are the foundry regulars.

Number of foundry regulars (source DiM, see above): [size=18]22
Number of players active at the moment (source Scoreboard): 18,553

foundry regulars as a % of active mebership: 0.1185792%

The above is the most startling % of all and i believe these figures tell their own story.

[/size]

yeah and the story is. 18553-22=18531 people have no idea how maps are produced. you can only imagine these people can cause to the foundry process if they start coming here and voting.

Ok, i respect ur opinion but can u stop being so ellteist

i assume you wanted to say elitist. and no i won't stop. sometimes elitism is good. would you allow a redneck to work in a nuclear facility or would you entrust that responsibility to an educated nuclear physicist?
that's elitism and it's damn well founded.
of course if that redneck goes and studies and comes back with a good knowledge then he will be most welcomed.

that's the same with the foundry. some people know how a map should be done and what feedback they must give while others don't. a guy that comes and says "great map let's play on it" has no idea how things work here and for me his opinion is zero. but if that same guys looks first analyzes and carefully thinks before he writes then his opinion will mean a lot.

most people than have never been to the foundry would vote yes for any map. but the foundry regulars have learned to say no and maybe. you'll never see a foundry regular yelling quench 2 minutes after a map has been proposed as an idea.

and the foundry is not brutal if you know how to behave. if people come here expecting the foundry to be like the clubhouse or the flame forum then they're in for a big surprise. we like to keep things organized here. we like seriousness and careful thinking. spamming and posting stupid things will most likely be ignored.

stick around for a while read other threads learn how things work and after you make a map and it gets quenched and a guy comes and says it sucks tell me if you'll take him serious or you'll ignore him. this happens a lot. people come after maps are quenched and say it sucks they don't bother to read the thread and see the debates on the bonuses and gameplay and graphics and stuff. they just come in and act like idiots. same thing for people that yell quench after the draft.

[oaktown]

thanks for that, rebel... good read.

It's true that there is a small group of foundry regulars (20? 30?) who dominate the discussion within the foundry. I don't have any hard and fast solution to this - nor am I absolutely sure that it is even a problem that requires a solution - but I have some half-baked observations I'd like to throw around...

• The foundry is run by those who show up. I've seen criticisms of the new maps in other forums written by people who never bothered to look at the maps while they were in the foundry. If a handful of people are going to be left alone to do the work, those people will do things the way they want to. Not ideal, but reality.

• The foundry operates with a strong collective memory. Some of us have been around long enough to see five or six attempts at a chess map, dozens of requests for maps based on copyrighted material such as Star Wars, months of debate about map size, etc. Some ideas get dismissed quickly (perhaps too quickly) because we've been down that same road many times before.

• The foundry has established rules and protocols which are not immediately clear to newcomers. I won't comment on a new map unless it meets basic requirements, and I routinely tell new mapmakers this.

• There is a lack of tough love for mapmakers who just don't seem to be on the right track. New mapmakers often spend countless hours working on a project in Paint, are given minimal feedback by a disinterested public, then wonder why the map isn't progressing. It sucks for the novice, but sometimes a mapmaker can surprise you so I think we tend to let people struggle on, often alone.

• Most of us have learned to roll our eyes when DiM goes on one of his rants. I allow myself to be dragged into his debates, and I usually regret it.

[Coleman]

Well right now I'd like clearer guidelines on revamps and how they should be treated. I've been botching things up with my heavy moderation techniques.

Our current system from what I understand is this...

1) Moderation contacts the creator of a map we feel or the community feels needs to be revamped.
2) We obtain a set of rules from the creator of what they will or will not allow.
3) We bring that back and open a competition to everyone and then have a vote where the winner (regardless of margin) gets to continue development.
4) Development continues as it would for a normal map except the CA team moves it instead of Andy and handles all the other work. (I failed here.)

Does this system work? A lot of people feel step three is a fair step (I don't at all).

I'd rather try a different idea where everyone who wants to give it a go makes a map and whoever reaches final forge first has the winning idea. Then the other people could be beaten out by the foundry process, not by a poll where you only need a slight lead over what could be as many as seven other ideas.

I believe in the foundry process. I believe in it much more then I do polls, which I only view as a tool (which we have no rules on) for a map maker to assess support or direction over a conflicted idea.

[DiM]

incorrect. A very small amount of the active gamers acctually visit the forum in general. This means they are not aware of the foundrys existance. If it was made aware to them that there was a section of hte site dedicated to map production it may convince more players to leave input

This is a two way process as I mentioned before if you want more of us to give our input we need to be listened to as well and entitled to give an opinion. I have highlighted previously the reaction I as one fairly thick skinned outsider has got when I visit here by several of the regulars and ironically from the mods. who I believe should rise above this kind of behavior. Ironically the point I raised which had me heaped in abuse has been acted upon now but if more of us ordinary gamers were welcomed into the process items like those red numbers could be nipped in the bed as playability not looks would be our primary concern. It was only a short couple of weeks ago that I highlighted in the abuse forum the reaction I got when I posted on here and I'm afraid to say things have got worse instead of better.

An outsider in the shape of Southy dared to suggest a new map and to add further insult to injury he invited the views of ordinary gamers to come along and comment on his work not just the foundry regulars he wanted a cross section of the site to comment on his work. The reaction on the thread below speaks for itself. Yes people were critical of his work, extremely so in my opinion considering this is his first attempt at map making on here but that is fair enough and that is what this place is all about.

But my issue is not with the map or the comments on the map, it is the reaction of some led by DiM who "named" those that invaded the foundry on this thread, when all these people were doing was commenting on a map having been asked by Southy for their input. below are some of the comments on this thread that was started by an outsider and dared to attract input from outsiders who will have nothing to do with this map other than play it when/if it eventually gets out.

you really went and quoted quite a lot of my posts. but just as you did with your statistics and calculations you were subjected and quoted just what you wanted.

let's get things straigth. i'm gonna tell you exactly what i told you in the other thread.

stealing someone's idea, creating a map with poor graphics crappy gameplay and theme and asking your buddies to vote for you doesn't make your map great it doesn't even make it good. it just makes it a crappy map artificially inflated by bogus voting.

almost all the people southy brought from the chat to vote for him said the map is great when they don't even know the basics of map making. that's ok. but when they received proper feedback about the gameplay and the them and graphics they simply said look at how many votes we have the map is great and your feedback is wrong. that's the problem. i don't care if southy and spinwizard bring 1000 people to vte for the map as long as they take any feedback into consideration and they do constant updating. but they don't.

[cairnswk]

Well right now I'd like clearer guidelines on revamps and how they should be treated.

I couldn't agree more.

I'd rather try a different idea where everyone who wants to give it a go makes a map and whoever reaches final forge first has the winning idea. Then the other people could be beaten out by the foundry process, not by a poll where you only need a slight lead over what could be as many as seven other ideas.

That in itself could be flawed, Coleman:
a. as those who may start a map with a very good version may also have the least amount of time to devote to it and not make it to Final Forge
b. if there are 5 people vying for the map to get to forge, then there is possibly 5 times the amount of posting that people in the foundry have do to if they want to support each map...isn't it fairer to decide from the outset with some rules and ideas as to who is going to do the map and have one only version going forward.
c. there is always going to be conflict over colours, textures etc, and polls are our tool to help decide this, and break a deadlock if it is possible; but the mapmaker also needs to be consulted in the processing of assembling a poll as to what is being requested of the mapmaker by the forum. The mapmaker then can decide if he/she wants the poll to run, and if not they can either argue in the forum as to why, or leave it, perhaps to their peril.

[DiM]

thanks for that, rebel... good read.

It's true that there is a small group of foundry regulars (20? 30?) who dominate the discussion within the foundry. I don't have any hard and fast solution to this - nor am I absolutely sure that it is even a problem that requires a solution - but I have some half-baked observations I'd like to throw around...

• The foundry is run by those who show up. I've seen criticisms of the new maps in other forums written by people who never bothered to look at the maps while they were in the foundry. If a handful of people are going to be left alone to do the work, those people will do things the way they want to. Not ideal, but reality.

• The foundry operates with a strong collective memory. Some of us have been around long enough to see five or six attempts at a chess map, dozens of requests for maps based on copyrighted material such as Star Wars, months of debate about map size, etc. Some ideas get dismissed quickly (perhaps too quickly) because we've been down that same road many times before.

• The foundry has established rules and protocols which are not immediately clear to newcomers. I won't comment on a new map unless it meets basic requirements, and I routinely tell new mapmakers this.

• There is a lack of tough love for mapmakers who just don't seem to be on the right track. New mapmakers often spend countless hours working on a project in Paint, are given minimal feedback by a disinterested public, then wonder why the map isn't progressing. It sucks for the novice, but sometimes a mapmaker can surprise you so I think we tend to let people struggle on, often alone.

• Most of us have learned to roll our eyes when DiM goes on one of his rants. I allow myself to be dragged into his debates, and I usually regret it.

very well put mate. i think you really hit the spot.

[Coleman]

Well right now what seems to be happening is that everyone who regularly contributes to development voted for something other then WidowMakers' map. Whereas WidowMakers got a bunch of, "Wow, that looks cool" votes from people that have never stopped by again or if they have didn't seem to find it very necessary to help support the map they helped to 'win'.

No matter how we handle it a bunch of people are going to put in a lot of work not to see anything come out of it. I dunno, something definitely feels broken about the whole revamp process and I am not sure where it is.

[DiM]

Well right now what seems to be happening is that everyone who regularly contributes to development voted for something other then WidowMakers' map. Whereas WidowMakers got a bunch of, "Wow, that looks cool" votes from people that have never stopped by again or if they have didn't seem to find it very necessary to help support the map they helped to 'win'.

when i said that people told me i'm crazy. when i said more maps should go ahead and have something like a final again i was told i'm crazy.

No matter how we handle it a bunch of people are going to put in a lot of work not to see anything come out of it. I dunno, something definitely feels broken about the whole revamp process and I am not sure where it is.

indeed something is broken.
perhaps the best solution is the easiest one. don't do revamps do alternatives. anybody can contact the map maker and ask for permission the map maker makes guidelines of what he wants and the map goes ahead like any normal map. and there can be as many alternatives as possible. i don't mind having 3-4 montreal maps as long as they are different in gameplay and style. and i'm sure the foundry can limit the number to normal levels by simply dismissing a map that's identical

[Coleman]

Well I wouldn't view what has been happening with Brazil as a success either, but that sounds like what you are suggesting.

I wouldn't mind Canada being our last revamp effort for a while myself.

[DiM]

Well I wouldn't view what has been happening with Brazil as a success either, but that sounds like what you are suggesting.

I wouldn't mind Canada being our last revamp effort for a while myself.

brazil doesn't have to be a success. if it fails to meet the foundry expectation then it will never get quenched and if somebody else talks to marvaddin and gets permission for a revamp and that turns out to be better then i don't see any problems.

[rebelman]

you really went and quoted quite a lot of my posts. but just as you did with your statistics and calculations you were subjected and quoted just what you wanted.

let's get things straigth. i'm gonna tell you exactly what i told you in the other thread.

stealing someone's idea, creating a map with poor graphics crappy gameplay and theme and asking your buddies to vote for you doesn't make your map great it doesn't even make it good. it just makes it a crappy map artificially inflated by bogus voting.

almost all the people southy brought from the chat to vote for him said the map is great when they don't even know the basics of map making. that's ok. but when they received proper feedback about the gameplay and the them and graphics they simply said look at how many votes we have the map is great and your feedback is wrong. that's the problem. i don't care if southy and spinwizard bring 1000 people to vte for the map as long as they take any feedback into consideration and they do constant updating. but they don't.

DiM you are you being very harsh here I was quoteing the sections that were relevant to what I was talking about. Of course you don't want people just coming in and saying yeah or neigh but it is a process. I spent a long time reading threads from start to finish before I plucked up the courage to start saying any more than "that is lovely". I now want to comment on maps and their gameplay, graphics etc but I have been berated when i have done this, and I am just one outsider dipping his toe in here.

Whether Southy map is a masterpiece or the worst map ever attempted around here is totally irrelevant to this thread, I was talking about opening the foundry up more something which southy attempted to do in his thread. I have no issue with yours, Southy's or anyone else's work or suggestions being criticised.

What I do have an issue with is on one hand people looking for us outsiders to have more imput but then when we do biting our heads off. These people that Southy attracted are like me I suspect only just learning about the foundry. I think you and those like you are being daft discouraging these new people even if one of them became a foundry regular making regular inputs and perhaps creating a map then southy has done this place a great service.

There are enough checks and balances in place to ensure a map must be of a superior quality before it gets quenched, what I am trying to do here is provide a voice for those of us on the outside who think fantastic work goes on in here but want to be more a part of it.

At least then we can raise issues like the red numbers, capital letters, dodgy bonuses etc. before the map is quenched. These may not seem important to you artists and cartographers but we ordinary players want things to be working smoothly when they come out of the foundry and if we were left be more a part of the process we definitly would become part of the solution.

DiM and others of like mind (if anyone of a like mind exists) remember we are like noobs in the game yes we may say and do things that you captains think are daft but that does not necessarily mean we are bad players or that we are wrong.

One final point, I do think this place needs a mod that is not a cartographer no offence on widowmaker, cairns or coleman but you are all map makers whereas if somebody like Twill visited here more often in a pure mod role not a map making role it might nip some of the unnecessary arguing in the bud and it might make life much easier for us outsiders to have an imput.

PS DiM if you have an issue with people encouraging outsiders to come in here passing comments why do you do that very thing yourself in your sig ??

[AndyDufresne]

I am currently working on and looking into getting more people into the Foundry, and getting them to stay and comment. We'll be able to discuss this all later.

As for having a mod here that isn't a cartographer, I think this seems a little counter. I wouldn't want non Tournament Directors modding the Tournaments forum, unless the moderation that was being done was minor and minimal (moving posts, locking, stickying). I think by having some cartographers as moderators, it gives them a special insight into it all.

And if that doesn't convince you...I'm not a cartographer, I haven't created any maps.


--Andy

[rebelman]

I am currently working on and looking into getting more people into the Foundry, and getting them to stay and comment. We'll be able to discuss this all later.

As for having a mod here that isn't a cartographer, I think this seems a little counter. I wouldn't want non Tournament Directors modding the Tournaments forum, unless the moderation that was being done was minor and minimal (moving posts, locking, stickying). I think by having some cartographers as moderators, it gives them a special insight into it all.

And if that doesn't convince you...I'm not a cartographer, I haven't created any maps.


--Andy

Andy sorry I forgot about you my mod. suggestion is more of a doomsday option if all else has failed to be honest if you can do what I highlighted in bold above I will be very happy. As what I have outlined here and elsewhere is not uniquely my experience it echos the views of many. My issue with the cartographer / mods is they way they have reacted to my posts on some threads as I highlighted before it does seem they like many of the insiders have an elitist attitude towards outsiders like myself and this has to change. I am a regular in the tournys forum and I have never seen iceman or steelhorse do this to anyone.

[DiM]

DiM you are you being very harsh here I was quoteing the sections that were relevant to what I was talking about.

by taking bits of conversation out of the context you tried making a point that was not valid. you tried making me look like i somehow acted with the sole purpose of hurting southy and his map. and that's untrue.

Of course you don't want people just coming in and saying yeah or neigh but it is a process. I spent a long time reading threads from start to finish before I plucked up the courage to start saying any more than "that is lovely". I now want to comment on maps and their gameplay, graphics etc but I have been berated when i have done this, and I am just one outsider dipping his toe in here.

i believe oaktown has said something very true:

• The foundry operates with a strong collective memory. Some of us have been around long enough to see five or six attempts at a chess map, dozens of requests for maps based on copyrighted material such as Star Wars, months of debate about map size, etc. Some ideas get dismissed quickly (perhaps too quickly) because we've been down that same road many times before.

• The foundry has established rules and protocols which are not immediately clear to newcomers. I won't comment on a new map unless it meets basic requirements, and I routinely tell new mapmakers this.

• There is a lack of tough love for mapmakers who just don't seem to be on the right track. New mapmakers often spend countless hours working on a project in Paint, are given minimal feedback by a disinterested public, then wonder why the map isn't progressing. It sucks for the novice, but sometimes a mapmaker can surprise you so I think we tend to let people struggle on, often alone.

look at us like a bunch of hermits living in a temple high on top of a mountain. our role is to do something. something that we've been doing for centuries. from time to time a passer-by stops takes a look and makes a comment. right or wrong we accept it the first time and invite the visitor for a warm cup of tea. we sit chat and discuss the reasons of life.

after some time another one comes and makes the same comment. we smile and greet him. but when the 100th visitor comes and says the same thing we kinda tend to tell him to go away and shut the door in his face. you see, as oaktown says some map makers have seen things repeat over and over again and in time you grow tired of smiling and explaining and you act cold.

Whether Southy map is a masterpiece or the worst map ever attempted around here is totally irrelevant to this thread, I was talking about opening the foundry up more something which southy attempted to do in his thread. I have no issue with yours, Southy's or anyone else's work or suggestions being criticised.

actually southy didn't open the foundry to other people. coleman tried doing that, cairnswk also by making threads in general discusion and inviting people t visit read and give feedback.

by asking people in chat to come and vote yes for your map you don't do the foundry a service. on the contrary.

and as proof to my words look at the new people that posted in his thread and tell me how many bothered to post in other map threads? none.
in fact most of them didn't bother to come back to southy's map and post again. they did only what they were asked. came voted and perhaps posted they like the map. that's all no feedback no posting in other threads nothing. that's not helping the foundry. in fact it's hurting the foundry by artificially giving the impression that that map is actually good.

What I do have an issue with is on one hand people looking for us outsiders to have more imput but then when we do biting our heads off. These people that Southy attracted are like me I suspect only just learning about the foundry. I think you and those like you are being daft discouraging these new people even if one of them became a foundry regular making regular inputs and perhaps creating a map then southy has done this place a great service.

for this part read a fe lines above. none of the people he called contributed to the foundry in any way.

There are enough checks and balances in place to ensure a map must be of a superior quality before it gets quenched, what I am trying to do here is provide a voice for those of us on the outside who think fantastic work goes on in here but want to be more a part of it.

if people want to be a part of the foundry then great. take your time read threads ask around and give proper feedback but don't come in vote in a poll without reading the thread or knowing how a map is made and never ever make posts with less than 5 words (the usual being "i love it" / "i hate it")

At least then we can raise issues like the red numbers, capital letters, dodgy bonuses etc. before the map is quenched. These may not seem important to you artists and cartographers but we ordinary players want things to be working smoothly when they come out of the foundry and if we were left be more a part of the process we definitly would become part of the solution.

a map is usually checked for everything before it's quenched and all issues are analyzed and discussed. the only mistakes in a map are found in the xml because at the moment we don't have a testing facility.

for example the red numbers in d-day were discussed prior to quenching. it was decided that they are ok and if complaints arise they will be dealt with after the quench. complaints arose and they were solved promptly with an update.

DiM and others of like mind (if anyone of a like mind exists) remember we are like noobs in the game yes we may say and do things that you captains think are daft but that does not necessarily mean we are bad players or that we are wrong.

i highly doubt there's anbody with a mind like mine. the universe is not big enough for 2 DiMs. and if by some strange space time continuum glitch 2 DiMs would come together at the same time then i'm afraid we would have quite a big bang. in fact the last time this happened people say that god created the universe.

all joke aside no foundry regular will tell a newcomer he is wrong just because he's new to the foundry. if he says he's wrong it's because the foundry regular has probably seen that situation before and has more knowledge on the matter. if he says it on a nice tone or a harsh one that's another story but trust me nobody will dismiss a new guy's opinion just because he's new.

One final point, I do think this place needs a mod that is not a cartographer no offence on widowmaker, cairns or coleman but you are all map makers whereas if somebody like Twill visited here more often in a pure mod role not a map making role it might nip some of the unnecessary arguing in the bud and it might make life much easier for us outsiders to have an imput.

first widow is not a mod. he's green because he takes care of the shop.
second, the foundry has enough mods. in fact if you look at the moderators of the foundry you'll see the entire mod squad is in charge. wheater or not they all visit i don't know. but i do know some do because people have received warnings for various reasons (including me) so the foundry is watched. you won't see them in action because unlike other parts of the forum the foundry regulates itself and doesn't permit excessive spamming or cursing. yes sometimes people are being perhaps abused but that's because they searched for it and that abuse is done in a very civilised manner. just search for a honeycomb made by klobber. he left on its own after he got a piece of the foundry and he totally deserved it.

PS DiM if you have an issue with people encouraging outsiders to come in here passing comments why do you do that very thing yourself in your sig ??

i don't have in my sig "click here leave stupid remarks and vote yes."
i have "click here and leave feedback". it's a big difference.