foundry process revamp

[DiM]

My issue with the cartographer / mods is they way they have reacted to my posts on some threads as I highlighted before it does seem they like many of the insiders have an elitist attitude towards outsiders like myself and this has to change. I am a regular in the tournys forum and I have never seen iceman or steelhorse do this to anyone.

go in half of the tourney threads post this:

GREAT TOURNEY

then go in the other half of the tourney threads and post this:

THIS TOURNEY SUX

then come here and tell us how you were treated.

i don't know the exact story behind your complaints and i'm not saying that you posted stuff like that in the foundry but there are a lot of people that do post such crap and are treated as they deserve.

[rebelman]

go in half of the tourney threads post this:

GREAT TOURNEY

then go in the other half of the tourney threads and post this:

THIS TOURNEY SUX

then come here and tell us how you were treated.

i don't know the exact story behind your complaints and i'm not saying that you posted stuff like that in the foundry but there are a lot of people that do post such crap and are treated as they deserve.

DiM run a search for my posts in the foundry and you will find they do not describe what you are alleging above. Actually when I raised these issues on another thread you were one of the first respondents. I really don't want to get into a long debate with you about this, DiM I want to help this process as i really like this site and I see the foundry as being a key part of that so I want the foundry to be a happy inclusive place.

As for your previous post where you went through my post line by line, I have a few comments to make firstly I for one was never offered the cup of tea if I was it was thrown in my face and the door slammed on me. I was treated in what I believed to be a totally unacceptable manner when I made on a number of map threads some balanced and reasonable points. The treatment I deserved merited me reporting same to a mod. and posting an abuse report something I do not do lightly.

As for southy not attracting anyone that is making actual comments on maps and the foundry in general that is factually incorrect. After the way I had been treated previously in here I had decided that not alone would I stay away in future but where possible I would warn others for fear they would be treated the way I was. Southy convinced me to come in look at his map and post comments he also suggested I should comment on other maps if I so desired despite what had happened to me before when I did this. This I have started to do again because of southy. i don't want to comment on any map until I have read the thread from start to finish in case I am reinventing the wheel but I do intend to have an imput and if you and others want to criticise and challenge every word I right so be it but if I and those like me are silenced and excluded then cc overall is the loser not just the foundry.

One final point DiM Southy did not just ask people for votes in live chat he also asked for comments and has directed people to other map threads as haave I, so before posting further false accusations on here can you please check your facts.

[Aerial Attack]

run a search for my posts in the foundry ... I want to help this process as i really like this site and I see the foundry as being a key part of that so I want the foundry to be a happy inclusive place.

rebelman,

I did exactly what you asked. I searched through your previous posts (in the Map Foundry/Final Forge/Map Ideas.

Your post on Pearl Harbor seemed to have been well received. I didn't see anything that could be taken otherwise. Apparently, you mistook cairnswk when he indicated you might contact BOB's creator to let that person know that BOB didn't work with Pearl Harbor. Cairnswk was not telling you to write the code - rather he was saying "I don't have BOB [therefore I don't know who to contact. Seeing as you do have BOB, maybe you do know who to contact?]" I can see where that might have been misconstrued.

Your post on D-Day was understandably less than stellar to begin, but after that initial joke (maybe you just missed the smiley at the end or maybe something else) everything seemed fine. In fact, yours was one of the first posts that helped to get the ball rolling towards the ultimate decision to change the colors from red to gray. As for the Artillery being more like Bombardment rather than human canons - Coleman responded that it was a game play issue (where the mapmaker liked it as is and the effort, however minimal, to change wasn't warranted). That's gong to happen from time to time.

Finally, your comment on Ireland should have been responded to. The mapmaker should have said something to this effect: "Maps are not always going to be historically, geographically, or otherwise correct. In this instance, the amount of effort required to make the graphical update was probably more than I wish to undertake." Whilst a bit of a brush off, at least you would have had your response.


Whilst I may make long winded posts, I've actually been here less time than you - my first Foundry post was October 8, 2007 at 13:08 US Eastern Time. Perhaps I chose a better first thread to post in? One thing I do know that I did, was to read the entire thread and make comments based on the latest updates and suggestions already supplied.

[DiM]

go in half of the tourney threads post this:

GREAT TOURNEY

then go in the other half of the tourney threads and post this:

THIS TOURNEY SUX

then come here and tell us how you were treated.

i don't know the exact story behind your complaints and i'm not saying that you posted stuff like that in the foundry but there are a lot of people that do post such crap and are treated as they deserve.

DiM run a search for my posts in the foundry and you will find they do not describe what you are alleging above. Actually when I raised these issues on another thread you were one of the first respondents. I really don't want to get into a long debate with you about this, DiM I want to help this process as i really like this site and I see the foundry as being a key part of that so I want the foundry to be a happy inclusive place.

As for your previous post where you went through my post line by line, I have a few comments to make firstly I for one was never offered the cup of tea if I was it was thrown in my face and the door slammed on me. I was treated in what I believed to be a totally unacceptable manner when I made on a number of map threads some balanced and reasonable points. The treatment I deserved merited me reporting same to a mod. and posting an abuse report something I do not do lightly.

As for southy not attracting anyone that is making actual comments on maps and the foundry in general that is factually incorrect. After the way I had been treated previously in here I had decided that not alone would I stay away in future but where possible I would warn others for fear they would be treated the way I was. Southy convinced me to come in look at his map and post comments he also suggested I should comment on other maps if I so desired despite what had happened to me before when I did this. This I have started to do again because of southy. i don't want to comment on any map until I have read the thread from start to finish in case I am reinventing the wheel but I do intend to have an imput and if you and others want to criticise and challenge every word I right so be it but if I and those like me are silenced and excluded then cc overall is the loser not just the foundry.

One final point DiM Southy did not just ask people for votes in live chat he also asked for comments and has directed people to other map threads as haave I, so before posting further false accusations on here can you please check your facts.

i hate internet explorer. i just clicked a link and when i pressed back all i wrote here was gone. i'm really not in the mood of rewriting everything again. f*uck internet explorer.
so here's the short version:

1. i didn't say you wrote crappy posts like that i said others did. look at the bolded part
2. i don't know what happend to you in the foundry and i remember you posted in the abuse forum but i thought it was a joke. after reading aerial's post i feel intrigued and i'll look with my own eyes to see what happened.
3. i'm not making false accusations about southy. i'm merely stating the facts. i saw a bunch of people from the chat posting a few times in his thread and not posting anywhere else. most of them never came back in that thread. in fact the only guy that posted outside the crossword thread is Cherry pepsi? that posted this:

i like # 2 sully's and secound window and i like what you guys done with the graphics i love how its in sperical form definatly playing if it gets in great job v

went over dose with smilies but that's what it deserves

do you see a resemblance between this and the posts with smilies in my previous post?

[bloknayrb]

I don't really see anything I can add in particular, other than my voice, so I agree, the process seems to be a bit... retarded.

[Coleman]

The three simple needs of the foundry...

1. More comments about maps earlier in production.
2. Cartographers being more open to suggestions for change in their maps.
3. An available testing environment that mimics an actual game that any graphic with xml can use.

I think 1 has been happening with the map ideas being in their own forum, but the problem there is a sea of bad topics with few gems. The reverse of this is true. People seeing a map for the first time in Final Forge is useful if they can reveal something to be really broken, but otherwise it is just found to be annoying. Trying to find a way to get more people in the game earlier would be preferable.

2 may be impossible. I think the only real way this could happen is if the moderation became more confrontational with authors refusing to change when the entire community is yelling at them. More confrontation proved to be bad with --- on several occasions (tends to lead to abandonment), and is something we don't want to do.

As for 3, this could happen in many ways. I fear if lackattack waits too long to find a way to do this himself a community member or group of community members might take it upon themselves to reverse engineer his games engine and create his or her own environment for testing. There are very few ways I could envision this being a good thing for lack. None actually.

[DiM]

The three simple needs of the foundry...

1. More comments about maps earlier in production.
2. Cartographers being more open to suggestions for change in their maps.
3. An available testing environment that mimics an actual game that any graphic with xml can use.

I think 1 has been happening with the map ideas being in their own forum, but the problem there is a sea of bad topics with few gems. The reverse of this is true. People seeing a map for the first time in Final Forge is useful if they can reveal something to be really broken, but otherwise it is just found to be annoying. Trying to find a way to get more people in the game earlier would be preferable.

2 may be impossible. I think the only real way this could happen is if the moderation became more confrontational with authors refusing to change when the entire community is yelling at them. More confrontation proved to be bad with --- on several occasions (tends to lead to abandonment), and is something we don't want to do.

As for 3, this could happen in many ways. I fear if lackattack waits too long to find a way to do this himself a community member or group of community members might take it upon themselves to reverse engineer his games engine and create his or her own environment for testing. There are very few ways I could envision this being a good thing for lack. None actually.

1. simple solution. maps that are worthy are moved faster in the main forum and crappy ideas are merged in the ideas thread.
2. the confrontation depends on how people talk. --- caused problems because he came and said do it my way or leave. that's bad.
3. this is the most important thing. lack can make test games. it has been done when he tested the speed games. so with that in mind i think at least 2-3 test games should be made for any map or even more. i say 2-3 games when map is nearing FF just to check for gameplay issues.
and 2-3 more games prior to quenching to check for bugs.

[AndyDufresne]

1. simple solution. maps that are worthy are moved faster in the main forum and crappy ideas are merged in the ideas thread.
2. the confrontation depends on how people talk. --- caused problems because he came and said do it my way or leave. that's bad.
3. this is the most important thing. lack can make test games. it has been done when he tested the speed games. so with that in mind i think at least 2-3 test games should be made for any map or even more. i say 2-3 games when map is nearing FF just to check for gameplay issues.
and 2-3 more games prior to quenching to check for bugs.

I think #1 is already progressing more so than it has been. When the Map Ideas sub forum was introduced...we never intended maps to stay too long...just to thin the herd of maps that were actually going to make it into real production.

I'll throw a little defense --- way. He said things that needed to be said at the time. He perhaps wasn't always eloquent, but sometimes things need to be said. But everyone does need to find a nice happy middle area somewhere.

As for #3, I know this has moved up significantly on Lack's To-Do list. We'll see what happens in the next few months.


--Andy

[DiM]

1. simple solution. maps that are worthy are moved faster in the main forum and crappy ideas are merged in the ideas thread.
2. the confrontation depends on how people talk. ---caused problems because he came and said do it my way or leave. that's bad.
3. this is the most important thing. lack can make test games. it has been done when he tested the speed games. so with that in mind i think at least 2-3 test games should be made for any map or even more. i say 2-3 games when map is nearing FF just to check for gameplay issues.
and 2-3 more games prior to quenching to check for bugs.

I think #1 is already progressing more so than it has been. When the Map Ideas sub forum was introduced...we never intended maps to stay too long...just to thin the herd of maps that were actually going to make it into real production.

I'll throw a little defense --- way. He said things that needed to be said at the time. He perhaps wasn't always eloquent, but sometimes things need to be said. But everyone does need to find a nice happy middle area somewhere.

As for #3, I know this has moved up significantly on Lack's To-Do list. We'll see what happens in the next few months.


--Andy

i found a spelling mistake. i think you actually wanted to say days

[yamahafazer]

As most of the people comenting here seem to be map makers and have huge coments it would seem to indicate that they have a point.

[MR. Nate]

1. simple solution. maps that are worthy are moved faster in the main forum and crappy ideas are merged in the ideas thread.
2. the confrontation depends on how people talk. --- caused problems because he came and said do it my way or leave. that's bad.
3. this is the most important thing. lack can make test games. it has been done when he tested the speed games. so with that in mind i think at least 2-3 test games should be made for any map or even more. i say 2-3 games when map is nearing FF just to check for gameplay issues.
and 2-3 more games prior to quenching to check for bugs.

I think #1 is already progressing more so than it has been. When the Map Ideas sub forum was introduced...we never intended maps to stay too long...just to thin the herd of maps that were actually going to make it into real production.

I'll throw a little defense --- way. He said things that needed to be said at the time. He perhaps wasn't always eloquent, but sometimes things need to be said. But everyone does need to find a nice happy middle area somewhere.

As for #3, I know this has moved up significantly on Lack's To-Do list. We'll see what happens in the next few months.


--Andy

I always felt like ---- was soft on everyone. Too many "I think this map needs major improvement to be playable and and not enough "This map is so atrocious I'm locking the thread so that it dies a slow painful death"

But that's personal opinion.

[Aerial Attack]

I always felt like ---was soft on everyone. Too many "I think this map needs major improvement to be playable and and not enough "This map is so atrocious I'm locking the thread so that it dies a slow painful death"

But that's personal opinion.

I wasn't here in the Foundry while ---was in charge. I'm guessing he had to be soft on people. Even if someone comes up with a bad idea, just having them go through the process once or twice and seeing how people react to their ideas - will help that mapmaker become a better mapmaker (or at least have a better understanding of what will/won't fly around here).

If --- had immediately cut everyone off when an idea was introduced, you'd be hard pressed to find new mapmakers. You'd be left with a few people who can make quality maps and no one else even willing to try (for fear of being immediately shot down).