Abortion

[Snorri1234]

Ok, here's the problem I have with abortion.

We know that humans do in fact have consciousness. I am me, for that reason. If my fetus was aborted, would *I* exist?

I think it's very selfish of us living to "abort" unless extreme circumstances are presented. If a girl gets pregnant and the parents want to abort because a kid would lessen their "freedom", then f*ck them, honestly. If you're not willing to accept having a child, then don't fucking have sex. I don't expect to have a kid when I have sex, but if pregnancy happens then it is my responsibility to accept the child (and you may say "but wait until you're in that situation" but I'm saying as of right now, where my conscious is pretty clear, if I eventually do knock up a girl without it being planned, then I am a piece of fucking shit if I want that baby aborted).

I don't know when a fetus is actually a human or whatever, but I think it's much better to be safe than sorry in this case.

And all in all, we have one reason to exist on this planet. To reproduce.

I'll admit that unplanned pregnancies suck, but it is our duty as fucking organisms on this planet to allow life to exist.

This is seriously the weirdest reasoning ever.

Why the f*ck is it our duty to put more humans on this planet? Assuming there is no god, where the f*ck does this duty come from? Is it part of the fundamental laws of the universe that I just missed? Did my textbook forget to include "lol make moar babies" after F=m*a?

Wtf?

[Woodruff]

I've had a child aborted once. Me and the mother-candidate were both very young, and both in such a situation that we couldn't possibly have taken care of a child (both unemployed, etc). We figured that abortion would be the responsible choice, rather than to bring another unwanted child we can not care for in the world.

It was years ago, and I still sometimes think, maybe things could have gone a different way, and I could be a father now. I still sometimes count how old my child would be now if he/she had not been aborted. But I still think we made the right choice, given the circumstances.

The responsible choice should have taken place long before the abortion--it would have been to avoid getting pregnant until you were able to take care of the human life that you were entrusted with.

Ok, sure...no argument. However, they didn't make the responsible choice at that time. Does that mean they should then no longer continue to make responsible choices?

My wife and I got pregnant when I was a senior and she was a junior. We decided to get married and keep the child AND HAVE BEEN INCREDIBLY LUCKY to stay married and to have been able to successfully raise that child. Frankly, if it hadn't been for the military, I'm pretty sure neither of those would have been very successful. But that's the key...we were lucky. We were some of the fortunate few. Too many times, people keep the child for the wrong reasons (we did not, fortunately both of our parents were supportive of our own decisions)...family pressures, etc...and that's when things go to shit.

Divorces are bad enough - when children are involved, they are typically tragic. And despite the "stay together for the kids" stories, the fact of the matter is that with children, a marriage is more likely to fail for financial reasons (the #1 marriage-killer).

"If there's even a question about when human life begins, isn't it our duty to err on the side of life?" --Ronald Reagan

I absolutely agree with erring on the side of caution in this matter. By the same token, I absolutely believe that making abortion illegal is NOT a case of erring on the side of caution, but rather an attempt by the Moral Repugnancy to force their own moral code on others.

[ img ]http://thepomegranateapple.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/abortion-slavery.gif[ /img ]

I have to tell you - that's a dumb statement.

[Snorri1234]

call me heartless, but i don't see how being raped justifies murder, if abortion is indeed murder. two wrongs don't make a right...

IT'S NOT FUCKING MURDER! Jesus H. Christ.

As far as the point you're trying to make (substituting "homicide" for "murder"), you believe that a woman should go through not only the trauma of carrying a child that will remind them of the rape EVERY DAMN DAY THEY'RE PREGNANT? Quite honestly, that's monstrous.

key word = "guaranteed" for those of you who missed it

So the f*ck what - that doesn't make it "murder", you illiterate buffoon.

BUT HE SAID GUARANTEED!


Now I'm just confused because his "key word" didn't actually appear in his post.

[Snorri1234]

man, this reminds me that I need to whip up a proper post about how the "take your responsibility"-crowd is fucking dumb.

[Woodruff]

I think it's very selfish of us living to "abort" unless extreme circumstances are presented. If a girl gets pregnant and the parents want to abort because a kid would lessen their "freedom", then f*ck them, honestly.

Sure, no argument. I don't have any disagreement with this or with similar reasons for abortion. But there are many situations which do not fall into this sort of an "easy decision".

I'll admit that unplanned pregnancies suck, but it is our duty as fucking organisms on this planet to allow life to exist.

Our existence on this planet is not in any danger due to abortion, so I don't think that duty aspect really needs to exist any longer.

[Woodruff]

Then again, I'm projecting my own morality on other people, so I have to bite my tongue.

Yes, and no. There's nothing wrong with your stating your opinion...but what we're looking for is rationale as to why. Plead the case. That's not forcing your morality...that's discussing the issue. It really comes down to HOW you're discussing it as to whether you're "forcing your morality on other people" or not.

[Woodruff]

What's the future of any species on Earth? If you say that we're somehow superior than another species, that to me has to imply that there's an Intelligent Creator.

That doesn't logically follow. Based on evolution, some specie will rise to the top. Doesn't necessarily have anything to do with a Creator.

If we're nothing more than the other species on Earth, then we can learn from all of them that our purpose on Earth is to f*ck and then die.

I'm honestly saddened that you seem to believe that is your only purpose in life.

[Snorri1234]

I'll admit that unplanned pregnancies suck, but it is our duty as fucking organisms on this planet to allow life to exist.

Our existence on this planet is not in any danger due to abortion, so I don't think that duty aspect really needs to exist any longer.

I'm at a loss about whether that fucking duty even ever existed.

[Woodruff]

I'll admit that unplanned pregnancies suck, but it is our duty as fucking organisms on this planet to allow life to exist.

Our existence on this planet is not in any danger due to abortion, so I don't think that duty aspect really needs to exist any longer.

I'm at a loss about whether that fucking duty even ever existed.

I would say that evolutionarily, it did. Propogate the species, and all that. I would easily say that at this point, it no longer should hold any sway.

[Anarkistsdream]

I think it's hilarious that most anti-abortion people are men.....

Hahahaha. Morons.

[Mr_Adams]

I think it's hilarious that most anti-abortion people are men.....

Hahahaha. Morons.

Most people who didn't support slavery were non-slave owners.

[Phatscotty]

I think it's hilarious that most anti-abortion people are men.....

Hahahaha. Morons.

Most people who didn't support slavery were non-slave owners.

what a bunch of morons!

[comic boy]

I strongly dislike the idea of using abortion as a means of contraception , other than that I feel it offers the only practical solution to the dilemmas previously outlined.
Whilst understanding the stance of others I cannot see that accusations of murder are in the least helpful , it is emotive , simplistic and addresses none of the problems that led to legalisation in the first place.
We all have moral standards , some more rigid than others , but we also suffer from varying degrees of hypocrisy. Those screaming murder about abortion may have different standards when it comes to topics such as war, Capital punishment or the slaughter of animals, if these can be justified then why not abortion ?
The problem with a purely moral stance is that it tends to trip itself up , historically the overwhelming reason for abortion was to avoid the huge stigma of being a single mother. Abortion , for whatever reason, is unpleasant but practical, thats the simple truth of it.

[Phatscotty]

I strongly dislike the idea of using abortion as a means of contraception , other than that I feel it offers the only practical solution to the dilemmas previously outlined.
Whilst understanding the stance of others I cannot see that accusations of murder are in the least helpful , it is emotive , simplistic and addresses none of the problems that led to legalisation in the first place.
We all have moral standards , some more rigid than others , but we also suffer from varying degrees of hypocrisy. Those screaming murder about abortion may have different standards when it comes to topics such as war, Capital punishment or the slaughter of animals, if these can be justified then why not abortion ?
The problem with a purely moral stance is that it tends to trip itself up , historically the overwhelming reason for abortion was to avoid the huge stigma of being a single mother. Abortion , for whatever reason, is unpleasant but practical, thats the simple truth of it.

sounds good to me. Sometimes you need to factor in the person carrying the baby. I don't want crack babies who's mother/father won't even show them love either. On this issue, to each their own. I wish there were less abortions, but really it's none of my business. I just hope the gov't does not promote them and takes a neutral stance and only enforces late term laws etc.

[Anarkistsdream]

I think it's hilarious that most anti-abortion people are men.....

Hahahaha. Morons.

Most people who didn't support slavery were non-slave owners.

what a bunch of morons!

How are those two things even slightly related?

You are a man. It is legitimately impossible for you to think or even begin to comprehend what it would be like to be pregnant. The physical and moral stigmas that people put on you. It's very easy for whites to pass judgment on blacks when they don't know what it's like to be black in America, or Africa, or Europe. You can't know what it's like to be blind unless you ARE blind- or deaf.

So explain how you know what is best for a woman?

Now explain how that has any bearing with slavery? Think before you hit send.

[BigBallinStalin]

I like how the Republicans think we ought to save the deficit by taxing abortion. "Taxes are evil, unless it's trying to circumvent Roe v Wade." This also solves the obvious market failure of abortions - they're way too cheap. They should be too expensive for poor people, the only people that deserve abortions are daughters of prominent Republicans that get pregnant by nonwhite men.

What market failure? The rules for having an abortion and for abortion clinics are heavily regulated and legislated by a monopolized legal system.

That's the government failure in playing with market forces.

[Army of GOD]

What's the future of any species on Earth? If you say that we're somehow superior than another species, that to me has to imply that there's an Intelligent Creator.

That doesn't logically follow. Based on evolution, some specie will rise to the top. Doesn't necessarily have anything to do with a Creator.

I mean superior in the sense that the superior species has a "purpose" other than just reproduction. Every single species, ignoring our own, has this purpose. If we're here on earth for another purpose than reproduction, that to me says that we're superior to another species in some sense, but that also means (to me) that there has to be some higher order that put us in existence to allow us to perform that purpose.

If we're nothing more than the other species on Earth, then we can learn from all of them that our purpose on Earth is to f*ck and then die.

I'm honestly saddened that you seem to believe that is your only purpose in life.

In the long run I believe it is my only purpose, but that doesn't mean I don't seek enjoyment or other sub-plots (I guess that's what you'd call them) to my life. Like, I WANT to eventually do research in astrophysics. That doesn't mean its my purpose, because eventually the human race will be wiped out and everything we worked for was completely pointless but I find enjoyment in it and that's what I'm pursuing.

I'll admit that unplanned pregnancies suck, but it is our duty as fucking organisms on this planet to allow life to exist.

Our existence on this planet is not in any danger due to abortion, so I don't think that duty aspect really needs to exist any longer.

I'm at a loss about whether that fucking duty even ever existed.

I would say that evolutionarily, it did. Propogate the species, and all that. I would easily say that at this point, it no longer should hold any sway.

I'm curious, what do you believe the duty of the human race is then, at this point in our existence?

I think it's hilarious that most anti-abortion people are men.....

Hahahaha. Morons.

Most people who didn't support slavery were non-slave owners.

what a bunch of morons!

How are those two things even slightly related?

You are a man. It is legitimately impossible for you to think or even begin to comprehend what it would be like to be pregnant. The physical and moral stigmas that people put on you. It's very easy for whites to pass judgment on blacks when they don't know what it's like to be black in America, or Africa, or Europe. You can't know what it's like to be blind unless you ARE blind- or deaf.

So explain how you know what is best for a woman?

Now explain how that has any bearing with slavery? Think before you hit send.

This doesn't work because there isn't anything to base any comparison on. Women don't know how it feels to be a man and men don't know how it feels to be a women. I'd say that in the long run, both a woman's and man's life suck equally and since pregnancy is a very natural thing (more natural than abortions [I don't know of any other organisms other than ourselves that perform abortions]) so while it is a bunch of hard and stupid assumptions made by men regarding abortions, I know how I'd want myself to act if I got a girl pregnant. I may not be able to give birth to the kid, but I'll surely be as supportive of the child as the mother is.

[BigBallinStalin]

And all in all, we have one reason to exist on this planet. To reproduce.

I'll admit that unplanned pregnancies suck, but it is our duty as fucking organisms on this planet to allow life to exist.

I just don't buy this part of your argument. Duty to who?

The future of our species

I see your point, but I can't think of many things more depressing than existing just to produce more copies. The future of our species is pretty vague.

What's the future of any species on Earth?

If you say that we're somehow superior than another species, that to me has to imply that there's an Intelligent Creator. If we're nothing more than the other species on Earth, then we can learn from all of them that our purpose on Earth is to f*ck and then die.

George Carlin said that our purpose on Earth was to make plastic because the Earth couldn't produce it by itself. Now, it's the Earth plus plastic!

[natty dread]

What's the future of any species on Earth? If you say that we're somehow superior than another species, that to me has to imply that there's an Intelligent Creator.

That doesn't logically follow. Based on evolution, some specie will rise to the top. Doesn't necessarily have anything to do with a Creator.

Who's to say we're somehow superior to any other species? We managed to survive up to this point. So did they. What makes us so superior? Our big brains? One could argue they cause more problems than they solve...

[Woodruff]

What's the future of any species on Earth? If you say that we're somehow superior than another species, that to me has to imply that there's an Intelligent Creator.

That doesn't logically follow. Based on evolution, some specie will rise to the top. Doesn't necessarily have anything to do with a Creator.

I mean superior in the sense that the superior species has a "purpose" other than just reproduction. Every single species, ignoring our own, has this purpose. If we're here on earth for another purpose than reproduction, that to me says that we're superior to another species in some sense, but that also means (to me) that there has to be some higher order that put us in existence to allow us to perform that purpose.

If your only "purpose" is pure reproduction...is that really a "purpose" at all?

If we're nothing more than the other species on Earth, then we can learn from all of them that our purpose on Earth is to f*ck and then die.

I'm honestly saddened that you seem to believe that is your only purpose in life.

In the long run I believe it is my only purpose, but that doesn't mean I don't seek enjoyment or other sub-plots (I guess that's what you'd call them) to my life. Like, I WANT to eventually do research in astrophysics. That doesn't mean its my purpose, because eventually the human race will be wiped out and everything we worked for was completely pointless but I find enjoyment in it and that's what I'm pursuing.

Nothing you said here makes me any less sad...and not because I disagree with it completely, either. But I do.

I'll admit that unplanned pregnancies suck, but it is our duty as fucking organisms on this planet to allow life to exist.

Our existence on this planet is not in any danger due to abortion, so I don't think that duty aspect really needs to exist any longer.

I'm at a loss about whether that fucking duty even ever existed.

I would say that evolutionarily, it did. Propogate the species, and all that. I would easily say that at this point, it no longer should hold any sway.

I'm curious, what do you believe the duty of the human race is then, at this point in our existence?

Why must there be a duty/purpose?

[Woodruff]

What's the future of any species on Earth? If you say that we're somehow superior than another species, that to me has to imply that there's an Intelligent Creator.

That doesn't logically follow. Based on evolution, some specie will rise to the top. Doesn't necessarily have anything to do with a Creator.

Who's to say we're somehow superior to any other species? We managed to survive up to this point. So did they. What makes us so superior? Our big brains? One could argue they cause more problems than they solve...

I would suggest that the process of evolution says that we are superior. We control the eco-system. That may be a faulty premise, I suppose...but it seems sound to me.

[natty dread]

There is no purpose. We are here, but we might as well not be here. We are not special. If we stop being here, the universe will not cry after us. The universe will not even notice. The universe will keep going until heat death.

Who's to say we're somehow superior to any other species? We managed to survive up to this point. So did they. What makes us so superior? Our big brains? One could argue they cause more problems than they solve...

I would suggest that the process of evolution says that we are superior. We control the eco-system. That may be a faulty premise, I suppose...but it seems sound to me.

We don't "control" the eco-system. If we did, there'd be no problems like global warming, extinction, erosion and such.

We do have the largest impact on the eco-system - for now, but does being a big fish in a relatively small pond make us somehow superior than other forms of life?

And process of evolution? Other species are just as evolved as we. They just evolved in different directions, ones that do not include abstract thought, etc.

[Woodruff]

Who's to say we're somehow superior to any other species? We managed to survive up to this point. So did they. What makes us so superior? Our big brains? One could argue they cause more problems than they solve...

I would suggest that the process of evolution says that we are superior. We control the eco-system. That may be a faulty premise, I suppose...but it seems sound to me.

We don't "control" the eco-system. If we did, there'd be no problems like global warming, extinction, erosion and such.

True enough - "control" was a bad term to use there.

We do have the largest impact on the eco-system - for now, but does being a big fish in a relatively small pond make us somehow superior than other forms of life?

Evolutionarily, I would suggest it does, yes.

And process of evolution? Other species are just as evolved as we. They just evolved in different directions, ones that do not include abstract thought, etc.

You seem to be making my point.

[natty dread]

We do have the largest impact on the eco-system - for now, but does being a big fish in a relatively small pond make us somehow superior than other forms of life?

Evolutionarily, I would suggest it does, yes.

Actually I think the answer depends, how do you define superior. What measurements do you use? There are a lot of species who seem to be better adapted to their environment. There are lots of species that thrive in environments that would kill us. What exactly makes us superior?

What about bacteria? Our bodies are 90% bacteria, measured by cell count. We wouldn't exist without them. Are we superior to the bacteria?

And process of evolution? Other species are just as evolved as we. They just evolved in different directions, ones that do not include abstract thought, etc.

You seem to be making my point.[/quote]

I don't see how. Perhaps you can elaborate on that.

[Nobunaga]

... by Page 9, "Murder" is winning.

... That's interesting to me.