Obligatory 911 Thread

[pimpdave]

try not to kick the shit out of any foreigners this evening.

That's an incredibly condescending, self-righteous comment.

Dancing Mustard, you should be ashamed of yourself for making this thread. And anyone defending it, f*ck off. The whole fucking thing is patronizing, pandering, and dismissive of what happened. You all act like asshole children, latching onto one little thing you THINK you can latch onto "Oh, it doesn't mock the tragedy".

"Obligatory 911 Thread", yeah, as if that isn't fucking derisive, and then that fucking image of the fucking jenga towers, mocking the entire situation.

This is crap. This is kind of garbage you all constantly rail against, except when it's one of you posting it. You all just love to toe the line, but this is another case of crossing it.

It was not a fucking movie that day, and you all like to treat it as such, with this incredibly sarcastic thread.

This thread should be locked and dropped to the fucking bottom of the forum.

[comic boy]

Sounds like he took one punch too many last night

[black elk speaks]

Now i am sorry and you are right.. perhaps this is a day when it should be left alone .. but i am fucking pissed off that you guys fucked up the entire world in an act of vengeance!

..
Don't confuse the issues when you talk about the 2. ...

don't forget to read my posts before you comment on them.

Well, I did. and you were inferring that the Iraq war was because of Sept 11. It wasn't.

i think that made reference to the conspiracy theories (which probably do undermine the memory of those who died:- your government killed you so it could invade Iraq! .. that one must genuinely grate the families of the dead!)

If i am in error, please clarify.

[black elk speaks]

Perhaps, had that attitude not been so prevalent in the white house 7 years ago, there might be a few more iraqi civilians alive.

Sadam killed more civilians than we have, lest we forget he was a ruthless dick-spud.

[jiminski]

try not to kick the shit out of any foreigners this evening.

That's an incredibly condescending, self-righteous comment.

Dancing Mustard, you should be ashamed of yourself for making this thread. And anyone defending it, f*ck off. The whole fucking thing is patronizing, pandering, and dismissive. You all act like asshole children, latching onto one little thing you THINK you can latch onto "Oh, it doesn't mock the tragedy".

"Obligatory 911 Thread", yeah, as if that isn't fucking derisive, and then that fucking image of the fucking jenga towers, mocking the entire situation.

This is crap. This is kind of garbage you all constantly rail against, except when it's one of you posting it. You all just love to toe the line, but this is another case of crossing it.

This thread should be locked and dropped to the fucking bottom of the forum.

I was in Bangkok the day Bush made his "Saddam! Get out of Dodge by 12 noon!" Speech. As i watched this extraordinarily ill-measured expression of Hollywood pastiche, a group of young Americans (All in their early 20's, fresh out of college on their world trip, i assumed) were joking and frolicking in the hostel reception area. Having fun and completely oblivious as to what was about to happen.

I was becoming more and more furious at their lack of care as to what was unfolding in front of our faces. The preposterous nature of the announcement played out like a cheap episode of 'Gunsmoke'.
That far from sugar-coated the news but the implication of what was about to occur was as plain to me as the result of throwing a chainsaw directly in the air above your head and standing, stock still to watch it land.

I considered this an Earth-shattering event and they just played and mocked existence as i became more frustrated. Frustration at my nor anyone elses ability to affect chance or reverse the obvious chain of events about to begin!
What played out in my red-misted mind, appeared to be a microcosm of reality; the children of the gods play as their parents crush and smite mere mortals!

Now i am a reasonable guy and pretty considered in my actions. So putting my genuine ire to one side and concluding that they were young and deserved more than my prejudice; i motioned to a young American lad who was slightly separated from the main herd.
"Hello mate, What do you think about this?"
There was no anger or confrontation in my voice, i went through the required split-second nuances of random social approach; smiling with my eyes a fraction, softening my voice into polite quizzicalness, whilst indicating the CNN news on the glittering screen.

Broken from his joyous spell of comradery, he reciprocated in a millisecond and glanced up.
He studied the summary and potted re-runs for a moment, looking genuinely bamboozled by the situation.
"I don't know!"
I went on to explain the possible implication of going into this unilaterally and against the UN ruling, the strengthening of Arab fundamentalism and that the trap which was set by 911 was about to be sprung.
his face was set in honest concern, not fear or uncertainty of my intent but what i inferred to be a genuine lack of understanding.
It was plain that he had not given it a moments cogitation prior to then.

Instantly i 'forgave' him and that merry band of young brothers and sisters. That's pompous? well life is made up of judgements and moments of empathy. It was plain to me that these were just good kids having fun and oblivious to world affairs. Nothing to forgive!
But while some peoples worlds shatter around them, under the jack-boots of our worthy mercenaries, it is not for those people to understand our lack of recognition.

Tragic though September the 11th was, transfixed by the events and atrocity as it occurred though i was, it is the equivalent of a husbands 'man-cold', tended to by the wife with terminal cancer.

The evil intent of this terrible attack was to give suffering to those who had never suffered except at their own hands. It was akin to a single bee stinging an elephant as it steps on the hive. (forgive the metaphors, i don't mean to belittle even one death but it is about the easily forgotten scale. If i thought that my words even hurt one person who lost someone in the attack i would retract them.. but never discussing this has future ramifications for the American State)

Saying all that, to not be saddened and remember those innocent dead in September the 11th, would be just as atrocious as only remembering them.

[black elk speaks]

Your words are warming and true, however your association of Sept 11 with the Iraq war is erroneous. WMD, a false reason, was the reason for the Iraq war. Whether misled by our president or our president was misled himself is irrelevant, it was the wrong thing to do. But it was still unassociated with Sept 11. It does not belong in this thread.

[jiminski]

Now i am sorry and you are right.. perhaps this is a day when it should be left alone .. but i am fucking pissed off that you guys fucked up the entire world in an act of vengeance!

..
Don't confuse the issues when you talk about the 2. ...

don't forget to read my posts before you comment on them.

Well, I did. and you were inferring that the Iraq war was because of Sept 11. It wasn't.

i think that made reference to the conspiracy theories (which probably do undermine the memory of those who died:- your government killed you so it could invade Iraq! .. that one must genuinely grate the families of the dead!)

If i am in error, please clarify.

i was certainly not inferring and not even was i implying that your government went into Iraq as they thought Saddam was responsible for the World trade Centre attack.
My words implied that the justification was on the back of the attack (Much of the the US general public, at least until very recently, still believed that Saddam was directly involved!).. propaganda and manipulation of American public emotion enabled the attack on Iraq! *

Besides that, i was stating this in 1st person narrative but as a tool of conjectural empathy; putting the words of conspiracy theorists without the clumsy need for direct attribution, this was not my own opinion.
If you study it again perhaps that will be more clear and if you read the whole post, the context is even more clear.**


* It's the whole reason i mention it in this thread... uncomfortable though it is to do it. the lack of public scrutiny of this whole terrible situation allowed Iraq to happen.

** in fact the point of the conspiracy theorists was that September the 11th was organised by the US government or a faction of the CIA .. or the friggin Pope and Donald Trump, who knows.. in order to give the excuse to Re-invade Iraq. (it was the end game)
That it was internally organised i went on to pooh-hoo, in that same post. But that Bush used it as a convenient excuse to invade Iraq, i will not

[black elk speaks]

Now i am sorry and you are right.. perhaps this is a day when it should be left alone .. but i am fucking pissed off that you guys fucked up the entire world in an act of vengeance!

..
Don't confuse the issues when you talk about the 2. ...

don't forget to read my posts before you comment on them.

Well, I did. and you were inferring that the Iraq war was because of Sept 11. It wasn't.

i think that made reference to the conspiracy theories (which probably do undermine the memory of those who died:- your government killed you so it could invade Iraq! .. that one must genuinely grate the families of the dead!)

If i am in error, please clarify.

i was certainly not inferring and not even was i implying that your government went into Iraq as they thought Saddam was responsible for the World trade Centre attack.
My words implied that the justification was on the back of the attack (Much of the the US general public, at least until very recently, still believed that Saddam was directly involved!).. propaganda and manipulation of American public emotion enabled the attack on Iraq! *

Besides that, i was stating this in 1st person narrative but as a tool of conjectural empathy; putting the words of conspiracy theorists without the clumsy need for direct attribution, this was not my own opinion.
If you study it again perhaps that will be more clear and if you read the whole post, the context is even more clear.**


* It's the whole reason i mention it in this thread... uncomfortable though it is to do it. the lack of public scrutiny of this whole terrible situation allowed Iraq to happen.

** in fact the point of the conspiracy theorists was that September the 11th was organised by the US government or a faction of the CIA .. or the friggin Pope and Donald Trump, who knows.. in order to give the excuse to Re-invade Iraq. (it was the end game)
That it was internally organised i went on to pooh-hoo, in that same post. But that Bush used it as a convenient excuse to invade Iraq, i will not

my point is that you are talking about the two as if they were related. Maybe i missed a post where someone else made a reference to Iraq.

Now, lets not incorrectly be on the wrong side here. Bush wanted to get into it with Iraq from the onset of his presidency. the fear of terrorism abroad brought on the heightened sense of urgency against trumped up charges against Iraq that Sadam has WMD, but Sept 11 was never seriously sited as a reason for war against Iraq. To mention Iraq in the contest of this thread is off topic. start another thread if you want to talk about iraq.

[b.k. barunt]

What all our intelligence networks have been laboriously covering up is that 911 didn't really happen. It was an elaborate Hollywood set, to be used in the Segal/Norris action flick "Chuck and Steve Go On a Spree". The special effects were so good that George Jr. bought the whole package from Paramount, and used it to scare the cows so he could invade Iraq - they've been hiding the real World Trade Center behind a bunch of smoke and mirrors all this time.


Honibaz

[black elk speaks]

What all our intelligence networks have been laboriously covering up is that 911 didn't really happen. It was an elaborate Hollywood set, to be used in the Segal/Norris action flick "Chuck and Steve Go On a Spree". The special effects were so good that George Jr. bought the whole package from Paramount, and used it to scare the cows so he could invade Iraq - they've been hiding the real World Trade Center behind a bunch of smoke and mirrors all this time.


Honibaz

thats what I said, minus the bullshit about Sept 11 never happening.

[DaGip]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk0Ac_oN_Zo

Olberman anyone?

[b.k. barunt]

What all our intelligence networks have been laboriously covering up is that 911 didn't really happen. It was an elaborate Hollywood set, to be used in the Segal/Norris action flick "Chuck and Steve Go On a Spree". The special effects were so good that George Jr. bought the whole package from Paramount, and used it to scare the cows so he could invade Iraq - they've been hiding the real World Trade Center behind a bunch of smoke and mirrors all this time.


Honibaz

thats what I said, minus the bullshit about Sept 11 never happening.

No, you said junior Bush didn't use 911 as a reason to go into Iraq. If it wasn't for 911, junior Bush never would have got close to Iraq (also the little pissant wouldn't have been reelected, as he's never done anything himself that is in the least bit memorable).


Honibaz

[black elk speaks]

What all our intelligence networks have been laboriously covering up is that 911 didn't really happen. It was an elaborate Hollywood set, to be used in the Segal/Norris action flick "Chuck and Steve Go On a Spree". The special effects were so good that George Jr. bought the whole package from Paramount, and used it to scare the cows so he could invade Iraq - they've been hiding the real World Trade Center behind a bunch of smoke and mirrors all this time.


Honibaz

thats what I said, minus the bullshit about Sept 11 never happening.

No, you said junior Bush didn't use 911 as a reason to go into Iraq. If it wasn't for 911, junior Bush never would have got close to Iraq (also the little pissant wouldn't have been reelected, as he's never done anything himself that is in the least bit memorable).


Honibaz

I said that iraq was not attacked because of Sept 11. They were attacked because of their supposed WMD. we would have gone into iraq anyway. he didn't use Sept 11 as a reason to attack iraq.

[b.k. barunt]

Bullshit. Like i said, he never would've got anywhere near Iraq if it hadn't been for 911. He used the excuse of supposed WMDs, but i heard him quite a few times state that we had to attack Irag to "fight terrorism". Listen to all the cuntry songs that came out around that time - all of them justified the war in Iraq because of 911. This is a nation of idiots.

[Nobunaga]

... Iraq was attacked for China.

... (run some news searches - where is the oil going?)

...

[Hologram]

Confession: I was quite young when 9/11 happened (or 20010911, as the military would say) and when I saw it on the tele, I was actually thinking "cool, something exciting is happening" and I kept wishing throughout the day that more stuff would happen so there would actually be something happening instead of stupid talking.


I feel really bad about that day now, as a result...

[Snorri1234]

he didn't use Sept 11 as a reason to attack iraq.

Yes he did. There wouldn't have been much support for the war in Iraq if it wasn't for the "trrist-scare".

[black elk speaks]

Bullshit. Like i said, he never would've got anywhere near Iraq if it hadn't been for 911. He used the excuse of supposed WMDs, but i heard him quite a few times state that we had to attack Irag to "fight terrorism". Listen to all the cuntry songs that came out around that time - all of them justified the war in Iraq because of 911. This is a nation of idiots.

bullshit yourself. he was dropping bombs in January. We were going to iraq regardless if sept 11 or not. i don't listen to cuntry music so i can't tell you what they say. name a tune or 2 and i will hear them, but for the record, iraq is not a reason that we went into iraq.

see here:
http://www.meib.org/articles/0101_ir1.htm

CONCLUSION

The basic policy of the Clinton administration was to maintain sanctions on Iraq. The policy was thoroughly inadequate to the nature of the threat that Saddam posed, particularly as it became known after Hussein Kamil's defection. However, the peace and prosperity America enjoyed during the 1990's dulled popular sensibilities about the existence of danger from Iraq. This general complacency was reinforced by a strong tendency among the Iraq experts in policy-making circles to tailor their work to accommodate the Clinton administration's position.

The new Bush administration will inherit not so much a policy on Iraq, as eight years of neglect. If the new administration continues on the path Clinton has laid, it will find that the threat posed by Saddam will increase significantly during its term in office.

The alternative is to resolve, at the outset, on adopting a vigorous policy toward Iraq. That would entail reestablishing the goal of the administration that fought the Gulf War: ousting Saddam. If the new administration were to make a serious and credible commitment to that goal, it would have support from a significant number of states in the region, including Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Turkey, Jordan, and Egypt.

However, absent such a commitment, and decisive action, the second Bush administration, like the first, may find itself one day surprised by another major act of Iraqi aggression. But the next war will be Saddam's last stand. And it will probably be significantly different from the previous Gulf War. Above all, it will probably not be limited to conventional weapons. Indeed, it may prove to be the awful, shocking, but seminal event, that ends the complacency, self-absorption, and suffocating consensus that led to the re-emergence of the Saddam threat in the first place.

this was written in January of 2001, right after GW took office. it was going to happen regardless.

[Snorri1234]

Bullshit. Like i said, he never would've got anywhere near Iraq if it hadn't been for 911. He used the excuse of supposed WMDs, but i heard him quite a few times state that we had to attack Irag to "fight terrorism". Listen to all the cuntry songs that came out around that time - all of them justified the war in Iraq because of 911. This is a nation of idiots.

bullshit yourself. he was dropping bombs in January. We were going to iraq regardless if sept 11 or not. i don't listen to cuntry music so i can't tell you what they say. name a tune or 2 and i will hear them, but for the record, iraq is not a reason that we went into iraq.

You're right about the intention to go to Iraq, but I think barunt is talking about the fact that Bush used 9/11 to create a craze about "terrorismists" to lend support to the war. One wonders whether Bush would've been able to invade Iraq without that support.

[black elk speaks]

Bullshit. Like i said, he never would've got anywhere near Iraq if it hadn't been for 911. He used the excuse of supposed WMDs, but i heard him quite a few times state that we had to attack Irag to "fight terrorism". Listen to all the cuntry songs that came out around that time - all of them justified the war in Iraq because of 911. This is a nation of idiots.

bullshit yourself. he was dropping bombs in January. We were going to iraq regardless if sept 11 or not. i don't listen to cuntry music so i can't tell you what they say. name a tune or 2 and i will hear them, but for the record, iraq is not a reason that we went into iraq.

You're right about the intention to go to Iraq, but I think barunt is talking about the fact that Bush used 9/11 to create a craze about "terrorismists" to lend support to the war. One wonders whether Bush would've been able to invade Iraq without that support.

He could have presented the same lies about WMD and still been able to make the case for invading Iraq. But I guess there is no way to know for sure. it is a moot point. but the fact still remains, Sept 11 was not related to the Iraq war, nor was it used as the reason for going to war.

[Grimlock]

Sorry to jump in here right in the middle. I apologize ahead of time for not reading through the 8 pages of posts on this subject; it was after the first one that was negative that I quit. If you are unable to exhibit the average expected amount of self-control present in a human and fail to avoid posting some negative post about this topic, I feel you need help. My advice to you is to seek out any family member of someone who lost their life on that day and beg for their forgiveness.

[jay_a2j]

It's a sad day.

If you weren't there, you can't understand. If you weren't there, you might think joke threads and conspiracy theory jokes are funny. They're not. If you've never watched a person die, engulfed in flames, if you've never watched someone jump out of a window, arms flailing, only to land with a dull thud on the pavement, a thin pink cloud instantly puffing up from the body while the rest of the corpse splatters out like a pizza that falls top end onto the floor.

If you haven't seen a woman stumbling around like a zombie, covered in concrete dust, grasping her left arm at the elbow, where her forearm used to be, the blood mixing with the gray dust, trying to put a tourniquet on her.

If you haven't ever been in a warzone, you couldn't possibly comprehend. No matter how many pithy or seemingly witty lampooning jokes you can make, it doesn't change, for a second, the way you would all respond had you actually been there.

Those of you making comments or jokes only prove to me and others that you weren't there, and most likely don't know what it's like to watch people get brutally slaughtered. I'd be curious to know if you'd be so cool and collected and able to make jokes at other people's expense if you were trapped in one of those towers, the flames making everything unbearably hot, the air thin, the sky clogged with thick black clouds of smoke, making it impossible to find an escape, if there even was one to be had.

Now, imagine that it was your own government........

[Snorri1234]

He could have presented the same lies about WMD and still been able to make the case for invading Iraq.

Sure a case could've been made, but it would've been far less easier to do it.

But I guess there is no way to know for sure. it is a moot point. but the fact still remains, Sept 11 was not related to the Iraq war, nor was it used as the reason for going to war.

Sept 11 was in no way related to Iraq, ofcourse. But the problem is that the average person thinks Al-Quaida is a well-organized sect that coordinates all their attacks with eachother. Bush did make countless references to terrorists and Al-Quaida in his speeches about the war, it's foolish to assume the mass-support for the war didn't come from 9/11 and the scare-tactics employed by the administration.

[pimpdave]

Now, imagine that it was your own government........

Now imagine me breaking your nose and knocking you the f*ck out...

[jay_a2j]

Now, imagine that it was your own government........

Now imagine me breaking your nose and knocking you the f*ck out...

This is not Flame wars.......nor Comedy Central for that matter.