INTO THE DEEP (COMPLETE - Mafia Win !!)

[Razorvich]

Think I got it right this time

[ZaBeast]

- Maybe it wasn't good for us, since he did in fact flip town, that's one less kill scum needs to win. So, not good for us, but not as bad as if we had lynched someone with a better PR. Maybe better not to lynch at all, then we'd still have our vigilante.

My point is your post make it look like the very fact he turned town was a good thing

Re: poisoner, yeah it would make sense for that person to fess up, I presume. I was mulling over this, thinking that it would be nice if mafia targeted any passive poisoner, but then again, they could just cry help and be healed by SW. Perhaps get a majority vote on whether the poisoner should reveal her- or himself? I'm for. Counting Beast, too.

+1 (or +0 since you already counted me in). PGO is classified as a negative utility role and it makes sense. A passive poisonner is similar and therefore I think he should reveal himself.

Just to go back and defend jfm for a second. For jfm's poisoning, it's good for town if he stays alive. Because he is rewarded when a townie is heals, he could confirm town players. It's a multi-step, elongated process, but it wasn't altogether bad on his part to poison night 1.

I assume all the credits are given out at the end of the game so no. It's a shame we lost a vig, but I consider a trigger-happy one to be a liability to town.

I refused to vote for jfm on D2 because the wagon was stupid and I didn't think his erratic play and lying was evidence of scumminess. As for the fact that I pointed out that you were all mostly wrong: I would have preferred that we didn't have to go down that path, but I had people saying that I was obviously scum for defending jfm -- even on D2, before the flip (strike) -- and that either I'm scum or I'm dense (Skoffin). So my hand was forced.

So that I'm on the record for D2, I'll vote Tobikera since he's been acting a little weird this whole time. jfm just put himself out on a limb, and Tobi won't even give him the time to let his gambit play out, which is suspicious. If Tobi is right that jfm's BS'ing us, it won't take us very long to find out.

- He says there is a day doctor, there is absolutely no evidence of this, who will heal Blacky. If that is true, there's only two people who could possibly know that: the day doctor, or the poisoner('s teammates). Secondly, if there is a day doctor who can cure poison, they would have used their day doc power on Blacky the moment they saw his post about being poisoned. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to assume this can be true. FoS Mets here for not at all thinking this through and yelling to "give jfm time to play out his gambit". There is no gambit.

Obviously I have thought it through. I just don't see the problem in giving him a little more time to prove it. If it doesn't pan out for the reason he has stated ("Because we have new players learning the game"), he's dug his own grave.

Vote mets
His posts at the end of D2 don't match up what he said so far today. Also he goes on saying it wouldn't be a good move for scum to defend jfm because that wouldn't give town cred while at the same point claiming he should have gotten some from his behaviour D2 with the "don't you dare vote for the guy who didn't lynch the scummy townie" talk.

[ZaBeast]

Re: poisoner, yeah it would make sense for that person to fess up, I presume. I was mulling over this, thinking that it would be nice if mafia targeted any passive poisoner, but then again, they could just cry help and be healed by SW. Perhaps get a majority vote on whether the poisoner should reveal her- or himself? I'm for. Counting Beast, too.

+1 (or +0 since you already counted me in). PGO is classified as a negative utility role and it makes sense. A passive poisonner is similar and therefore I think he should reveal himself.

I read back some stuff, and I suspect the poisoner is not a passive ability. Can't go into why though. That deduction is not solely based on my role and actions, so I might be wrong if some things don't turn out how I think they are.

[Metsfanmax]

Vote mets
His posts at the end of D2 don't match up what he said so far today.

I fail to see the issue. Perhaps you should explain why they don't match. My comments towards the end of D2 were that people were being too hasty in voting jfm, and I was concerned that this was creating unnecessary confusion. I hadn't decided whether I would vote for jfm at that time or not, but I was suggesting that I was open to it depending on how events played out, and that other people should continue to be open-minded about it too. Now I'm suggesting that people weren't open-minded, and that contributed to us lynching town. My reasoning is the same now as it was then.

Also he goes on saying it wouldn't be a good move for scum to defend jfm because that wouldn't give town cred while at the same point claiming he should have gotten some from his behaviour D2 with the "don't you dare vote for the guy who didn't lynch the scummy townie" talk.

Of course I'm going to defend myself to the best of my ability, given the situation as it has played out, and point out that it would be silly to lynch one of the few people who didn't participate in a mislynch yesterday. That doesn't change the fact that I have brought a lot of attention onto myself with my actions, and if I was scum, I'd rather be in the situation of people not talking about me as a lynch candidate, than in the situation of people talking about me as a lynch candidate and me having to argue my way out of that hole. Another way to say this is that I think that I should have town cred after what happened with jfm, but I also know how mafia players actually are, and I wasn't too optimistic about actually being considered the pro-town hero coming into D3 (especially because sw started going after me even before the flip).

[strike wolf]

I'm an idiot. It occurs to me that the mod never specified how my night action was successful n1. If we were to operate under the theory that there are two poisoners (JFM dead another still out there) or that JFM was lying (again) and the poisoner is a PGO type and was visited by two people night 1 than it's possible my night 1 target wasn't the primary target (busdriven or otherwise) but a second poisoning target. This, however, would not explain how there was no night kills as it seems unlikely that poisoning is the only option for mafia to kill in this game (I have the option to heal myself so poisoning me would just result in a stalemate in terms of night kill attempts). It would however lead some credibility to Mets saying he may not have been lying about the poisoning.

@Razor: Can you explain the abilities of a town assassin now that he is out of the game?

[blacky365]

I dont really get why we are focusing on who voted for JFM.
Yes he was town, and I felt at the time of voting that he would prob flip town, but the way he was playing warranted the votes and his ultimate lynching.
So I believe that his lynching was justified and those who voted for him dont come under any scrutiny.

It is those who voted Pershy on D1 that still rankles with me... the guy was given no time at all and was jumped on and lynched!
That lynching looked like a pure scum train and i am so surprised that no one else has picked up on it.

It feels to me as though we have an experienced scum team who are misdirecting us here and pushing us in to looking at the wrong things so they can get away with a free lynching.

Voted Pershy: BuJ, Skof, ZaB, Dakky, Chap, Sirius, Rage, Strike, Mets, Tobi
Voted JFM: ZaB, Chap, Dakky, Skoff, BuJ, Sirius, Aage, Blacky, Strike

Voted both: BuJ, Skof, ZaB, Dakky, Chap, Sirius, Strike

[Tobikera]

So that I'm on the record for D2, I'll vote Tobikera since he's been acting a little weird this whole time. jfm just put himself out on a limb, and Tobi won't even give him the time to let his gambit play out, which is suspicious. If Tobi is right that jfm's BS'ing us, it won't take us very long to find out.

I already refuted Metsfanmax on this, and now you're reiterating it, ZaBeast. I didn't even vote for jfm, as Mets alludes. I did question him (and never got a straight answer). But, Mets vote on me was not based in fact. Check out who was on the jfm wagon...I'm not there....my vote at that time was on Mets.

[Ragian]

I dont really get why we are focusing on who voted for JFM.
Yes he was town, and I felt at the time of voting that he would prob flip town, but the way he was playing warranted the votes and his ultimate lynching.
So I believe that his lynching was justified and those who voted for him dont come under any scrutiny.

It is those who voted Pershy on D1 that still rankles with me... the guy was given no time at all and was jumped on and lynched!
That lynching looked like a pure scum train and i am so surprised that no one else has picked up on it.

It feels to me as though we have an experienced scum team who are misdirecting us here and pushing us in to looking at the wrong things so they can get away with a free lynching.

Voted Pershy: BuJ, Skof, ZaB, Dakky, Chap, Sirius, Rage, Strike, Mets, Tobi
Voted JFM: ZaB, Chap, Dakky, Skoff, BuJ, Sirius, Aage, Blacky, Strike

Voted both: BuJ, Skof, ZaB, Dakky, Chap, Sirius, Strike

I did that post a few pages back. Nothing happened. Did you react then?

[blacky365]

After the last change of story, I honestly thought jmf would flip scum. At that point, however, he had already been lynched. At first, I didn't think he was scum (hence not voting for him), but I think that my thinking he was town actually looks worse now because only scum know who is town.

So, there's that...

Anyway, at this point I don't feel like I have any solid reads on anyone. I feel like I have learned nothing from the first two days. And I don't get why there are no nightkills. Did anyone get poisoned?

Lynchers D1: BuJ, skoffin, ZaBeast, dakky, chap, Sirius, Ragian, strike, Mets, Tobi
Lynchers D2: ZaBeast, Chap, dakky, skoffin, BuJ, Sirius, aage, blacky, strike

BuJ, ZaBeast, Chap, Skoffin, Dakky, Sirius, and Strike have lynched both days.
Pika and TX haven't lynched.

I'll ponder those pieces of information for a while...

You mean this?
I mean, it’s similar in a way but my main point was that so much focus has been castigating jfm who deserved to be lynched and no one is talking about the speed of the undeserved lynch of pershy.

[Tobikera]

You mean this?
I mean, it’s similar in a way but my main point was that so much focus has been castigating jfm who deserved to be lynched and no one is talking about the speed of the undeserved lynch of pershy.

Blacky, I don't remember it that way. I voted for pershy first because he was acting atypical of all the many games I have played with him. Ragian agreed. Nothing happened for many pages. Then the mod announced he would make a D1 deadline. I think that was the trigger for people to get off the pot and vote. Pershy had ample opportunity to make his case, but didn't to everyone's satisfaction, I guess.

[blacky365]

You mean this?
I mean, it’s similar in a way but my main point was that so much focus has been castigating jfm who deserved to be lynched and no one is talking about the speed of the undeserved lynch of pershy.

Blacky, I don't remember it that way. I voted for pershy first because he was acting atypical of all the many games I have played with him. Ragian agreed. Nothing happened for many pages. Then the mod announced he would make a D1 deadline. I think that was the trigger for people to get off the pot and vote. Pershy had ample opportunity to make his case, but didn't to everyone's satisfaction, I guess.

Yeah sure, there were a couple of early votes on him but that doesn’t explain everyone else who jumped on the wagon... I commented on it at the time and was was basically told to shut up or I would be accused of being scum too
(Note: I’m summarising here and putting it into my own words but that’s the feeling I got. If needed I can go back and find the actual posts but not until tomorrow now)

[Metsfanmax]

So that I'm on the record for D2, I'll vote Tobikera since he's been acting a little weird this whole time. jfm just put himself out on a limb, and Tobi won't even give him the time to let his gambit play out, which is suspicious. If Tobi is right that jfm's BS'ing us, it won't take us very long to find out.

I already refuted Metsfanmax on this, and now you're reiterating it, ZaBeast. I didn't even vote for jfm, as Mets alludes. I did question him (and never got a straight answer). But, Mets vote on me was not based in fact. Check out who was on the jfm wagon...I'm not there....my vote at that time was on Mets.

Yeah, I have to be honest, I have no idea what I was thinking then. I must have misread and thought Tobi was one of the people voting jfm by that time, but I can see from revisiting that portion of the thread that I was wrong about that.

With that being said, ZaBeast wasn't quoting me to agree with me or to comment about you.

[Sirius Kase]

Lynchers D1: BuJ, skoffin, ZaBeast, dakky, chap, Sirius, Ragian, strike, Mets, Tobi
Lynchers D2: ZaBeast, Chap, dakky, skoffin, BuJ, Sirius, aage, blacky, strike

BuJ, ZaBeast, Chap, Skoffin, Dakky, Sirius, and Strike have lynched both days.
Pika and TX haven't lynched.

You mean this?
I mean, it’s similar in a way but my main point was that so much focus has been castigating jfm who deserved to be lynched and no one is talking about the speed of the undeserved lynch of pershy.

Blacky, I don't remember it that way. I voted for pershy first because he was acting atypical of all the many games I have played with him. Ragian agreed. Nothing happened for many pages. Then the mod announced he would make a D1 deadline. I think that was the trigger for people to get off the pot and vote. Pershy had ample opportunity to make his case, but didn't to everyone's satisfaction, I guess.

Oh dear, me and 6 others are on that list of people that mislynched twice! I do not want to do that again. I voted for Pershy because Tobi and Ragian and possibly others said he was not behaving the way he usually does. It kinda made sense and I wasn't wanting to research Pershy's behavior in previous games. Now I see how gullible I was. If scum has a way to talk in private, they could have easily set this up. I didn't think of that possibility, not right away.

jfm was easy for me to misread. He doesn't handle pressure well. Once people started piling on, he acted guilty.

Ragian's list is food for thought, but I don't know how closely it correlates with scummy behavior. I'm more inclined to believe scum are people who claim a power role and appear to be using it. It would be so easy to set up a poisoning and a healing in a scum only conversation. The poisoning and healing don't even have to be real. All talk. Blacky said he's seen this sort of thing in other games. Ever since he said that, it's been on my mind. If scum has anyone with a detective role, they could have investigated pershy and jfm and found them to be good victims. In retrospect, this plot almost writes itself, a vigilante and a wiretapper sure sound scummy.

So, who would be the play actors? Blacky and Strike Wolf obviously, and anyone who fell for it without asking questions. Blacky, being practically a newbie, made for a great pretend victim. Strike was a little harder to establish since first they had to discredit jfm. They probably knew he wasn't really a doctor My question is only whether they had enough time to investigate? With 16 players in the game, is it possible for scum to have enough investigative roles? Surely they have at least one killer, unless they are only intended to kill by talking town into lynching. Has anyone ever played a game like that?

It appears that this game has multiple poisoners and healers. Maybe it just seems that way because of clever rhetoric. I'm not sure it's normal to have multiple players with the same role. But, with 16 players, and no VT's, maybe the mods decided to double up on some roles. How likely is that?

One last thought, maybe Blacky and SW are not scum at all, but were just used by the real scum. A scum poisoner could have poisoned Blacky for real, and SW could have healed him for real. A scum doctor? maybe, but not necessary. If Blacky had died, scum would have know ahead of time he was town, so no problem for scum. But a doctor who didn't heal a townie would have some explaining to do.

So, at the moment, Tobi and Ragian look like scum for manipulating me and the others into mislynching and then having Ragian publish that list as though being tricked twice is evidence of scummy behavior. Dakky is no longer on my scum list, and I apologize for doubting him. I don't know he isn't scum, but simply not liking someone's style doesn't mean they are scummy. Besides, if he really is a commuter or a hermit, he wouldn't be effective mafia, unless we have a no night kill, only kill with rhetoric kinda game. Blacky and Strike are probably not scum, just used by the real scum, with the intention of scapegoating them.

[Sirius Kase]

Besides, if he really is a commuter or a hermit, he wouldn't be effective mafia, unless we have a "no night kill, only kill with rhetoric" kinda game.

That doesn't make sense without the quote marks. I doubt we have a "no NK, kill with only rhetoric" kinda of game, but setting up an elaborate scenario with mafia investigators, killers, victims, doctors, etc, requires an awful lot of personnel.

[Pikanchion]

It appears that this game has multiple poisoners and healers.

What evidence do you have for this?

[TX AG 90]

Again, I only know who I requested to visit, but I am skeptical that I actually visited this person, since I know that the effect of my action was not applied to this person. Earlier in this day I suggested that I was redirected, but Tobi has claimed he didn't target me. And, having thought about it more since I originally brought it up, it's possible that there's another explanation than me being redirected: namely, that the passive poisoner also negates the action that was applied to them. But until I have more information, I'm not sure I want to share the identity of who I targeted.

I can respect your desire to hold off, but if a townie winds up getting passively poisoned N3, it's on you and Blacky for not sharing.

[ZaBeast]

Voted Pershy: BuJ, Skof, ZaB, Dakky, Chap, Sirius, Rage, Strike, Mets, Tobi
Voted JFM: ZaB, Chap, Dakky, Skoff, BuJ, Sirius, Aage, Blacky, Strike

Voted both: BuJ, Skof, ZaB, Dakky, Chap, Sirius, Strike

In the same post you say this though

I dont really get why we are focusing on who voted for JFM.
Yes he was town, and I felt at the time of voting that he would prob flip town, but the way he was playing warranted the votes and his ultimate lynching.
So I believe that his lynching was justified and those who voted for him dont come under any scrutiny.

So on one hand it's not scummy to vote jfm, but on the other hand the people who voted both jfm and pershy are scummier than the ones who voted pershy only?

@mets: You say "if tobi's right he's BSing us" and "if it doesn't pan out for the reason he stated [...] he's dug his own grave". I read that as someone who would have voted jfm had it been proven he lied about his role as he indeed has, not just considered voting him.
@Sirius: keep in mind scum usually only comunicate at night. That means they couldn't coordinate on D1 and couldn't share any result they got N1 during D2.
@aage: can you explain why you have a strong town read on BuJ? I don't find him particularly scummy, but nothing screams town to me.

My top 3 lynch candidates for the day would be Mets, tobi and blacky
- Both tobi and blacky voted for jfm D1 not because they found him scummy (at least not at first in blacky's case) but because they wanted someone to claim.
- tobi also voted an inactive to get him to claim, which is basically useless as no one had interacted with him. I could understant voting an inactive player (though he should be replaced instead) but it should be with the intent to lynch (and on D1 it would be more of a policy lynch than a lynch that would give any sort of info)
- blacky made a super low-effort case on dakky on D1 around the time the pershy wagon was starting to pick up speed then mostly went "I can't believe this" "this is crazy" instead of 1- providing actual arguments to try to prevent the lynch and/or 2- trying to convince town that they should lynch someone else instead
-Mets for his defense of jfm and his posting in which he doesn't really accuse anybody of anything but just tries to contradict other people's points
Reading back, it looks like blacky is actually scummier Unvote vote blacky

[Sirius Kase]

It appears that this game has multiple poisoners and healers.

What evidence do you have for this?

Appearances can be deceiving. That's why I said "it appears" and not "I think". I have no evidence other than the fact people are talking so much about poisoners and healers.

[Sirius Kase]

@Sirius: keep in mind scum usually only comunicate at night. That means they couldn't coordinate on D1 and couldn't share any result they got N1 during D2.

good point. With that in mind, my theory might be a bit too complicated.

- blacky made a super low-effort case on dakky on D1 around the time the pershy wagon was starting to pick up speed then mostly went "I can't believe this" "this is crazy" instead of 1- providing actual arguments to try to prevent the lynch and/or 2- trying to convince town that they should lynch someone else instead

Naive people might be easier to frame.

Reading back, it looks like blacky is actually scummier Unvote vote blacky

Appearances can be deceiving. Blacky hasn't put up a good defense, but the rule is "Scum lies" not "Scum is silly". It could be he's scum but not a good liar. I'll keep an eye on him, but I tend to think he's a newbie who got mistook for an experienced player, and that's the explanation for the silliness.

[Metsfanmax]

Again, I only know who I requested to visit, but I am skeptical that I actually visited this person, since I know that the effect of my action was not applied to this person. Earlier in this day I suggested that I was redirected, but Tobi has claimed he didn't target me. And, having thought about it more since I originally brought it up, it's possible that there's another explanation than me being redirected: namely, that the passive poisoner also negates the action that was applied to them. But until I have more information, I'm not sure I want to share the identity of who I targeted.

I can respect your desire to hold off, but if a townie winds up getting passively poisoned N3, it's on you and Blacky for not sharing.

This is a fair point. Then presumably we should all be in favor of the passive poisoner announcing themselves, if we agree that they are a negative utility role for town? I am now in support of Ragian's suggestion. If the passive poisoner has not announced themselves 24 hours before the day deadline, or at the first L-2, whichever comes earlier, I will state who I targeted on N2.

[ZaBeast]

Appearances can be deceiving. Blacky hasn't put up a good defense, but the rule is "Scum lies" not "Scum is silly". It could be he's scum but not a good liar. I'll keep an eye on him, but I tend to think he's a newbie who got mistook for an experienced player, and that's the explanation for the silliness.

I'm having trouble following you. One or a few posts ago you stated SW and blacky might be scum together. Now you say you don't think blacky is scum, just silly and new. Did you have any suspicion towards blacky and strike other than the fact they claimed healer and healed respectively? If so, why do you defend him now? If not, why even (and only) mention this specific combination? Specially since others already did anyways. You didn't mention other combinations like tobi and mets either, in which tobi sets up mets on a very weak case on the hopes that the other gets town cred if one dies for instance

For the record here's why I think blacky and sw didn't fake being poisoned and healer. Put simply, if they believed jfm claim (and they had no reason not to, unless strike is investigative scum role), they would have known that it meant death for strike the following day and death for blacky the following day (either for being saved by a scum doc if that was sw 's role, or for faking poisoning)

[BuJaber]

Fine this is going nowhere.
Probably a good thing, we can focus in real scumhunting.

Now vote dakky

Because you're town and want to kill a townie because my vote might be a hammer on someone or the vote will be used in a bandwagon... yeah... good choice.

What?

[BuJaber]

Also jfm was pushed on d1 for bs reasons and to find out more about town PRs. Scum-led.

I was looking for people that give off clues that they knew jfm's alignment. Pershy joined jfm wagon despite not really sounding very sure of his scumread, then instantly unvoted after jfm's random claim that shouldn't have changed anyone's mind tbh. It looked like he knew he was town and was faking the reads.

But also his role is just not usually a town role, which is not his fault.
And people made day 1 all about jfm and refused to vote and look somewhere else so too much time was wasted and people wanted to end the day. Again not his fault, the fault of jfm wagoners.

[Sirius Kase]

@zabeast My post was too long. Short version, I think Blacky and Strike are being framed. It was all there, but I didn't write clearly.

[blacky365]

Voted Pershy: BuJ, Skof, ZaB, Dakky, Chap, Sirius, Rage, Strike, Mets, Tobi
Voted JFM: ZaB, Chap, Dakky, Skoff, BuJ, Sirius, Aage, Blacky, Strike

Voted both: BuJ, Skof, ZaB, Dakky, Chap, Sirius, Strike

In the same post you say this though

I dont really get why we are focusing on who voted for JFM.
Yes he was town, and I felt at the time of voting that he would prob flip town, but the way he was playing warranted the votes and his ultimate lynching.
So I believe that his lynching was justified and those who voted for him dont come under any scrutiny.

So on one hand it's not scummy to vote jfm, but on the other hand the people who voted both jfm and pershy are scummier than the ones who voted pershy only? Im not saying either list are defo scum, im just not understanding why all the focus has been on those lynching JFM and not on Pershy's lynchers.

@mets: You say "if tobi's right he's BSing us" and "if it doesn't pan out for the reason he stated [...] he's dug his own grave". I read that as someone who would have voted jfm had it been proven he lied about his role as he indeed has, not just considered voting him.
@Sirius: keep in mind scum usually only comunicate at night. That means they couldn't coordinate on D1 and couldn't share any result they got N1 during D2.
@aage: can you explain why you have a strong town read on BuJ? I don't find him particularly scummy, but nothing screams town to me.

My top 3 lynch candidates for the day would be Mets, tobi and blacky
- Both tobi and blacky voted for jfm D1 not because they found him scummy (at least not at first in blacky's case) but because they wanted someone to claim. This is quite normal in every game ive played in. Take someone to L-2 to pressure them to claim. And given JFM's partial claim, he became a fair target for further pressure.
- tobi also voted an inactive to get him to claim, which is basically useless as no one had interacted with him. I could understant voting an inactive player (though he should be replaced instead) but it should be with the intent to lynch (and on D1 it would be more of a policy lynch than a lynch that would give any sort of info)
- blacky made a super low-effort case on dakky on D1 around the time the pershy wagon was starting to pick up speed then mostly went "I can't believe this" "this is crazy" instead of 1- providing actual arguments to try to prevent the lynch and/or 2- trying to convince town that they should lynch someone else instead I would have had no intention to defend him because I had no idea of his allignment etc, but my saying 'this is crazy' was in response to the speed with which this wagon went to lynch as opposed to everything else that has happened in this game.
-Mets for his defense of jfm and his posting in which he doesn't really accuse anybody of anything but just tries to contradict other people's points
Reading back, it looks like blacky is actually scummier Unvote vote blacky