Battle of the Bulge - CLOSED

[DoomYoshi]

Ok, now to come up with a case on him so he can defend himself: Doom, assuming jak is town doc (no evidence suggests he isn't), how would knowing his night action help you, as town (if you are town), at all?

If jak is town, it doesn't help much, save to see the opposite end of the spectrum. We have all posted top 3 most scummy, but none have posted top 3 townie. That information might help a bit in piecing together inter-player relations.

This part doesn't really answer my question at all but is rather an aside.

The main thing is that it can't hurt unless jak protected mafia. Jak's reluctance to part with the information means he thinks he targetted mafia. So I would like to know who he targetted to see who he thinks is mafia.

How does this only hurt if he protected mafia? Jak says that saying who he doc'd makes a WIFOM loop that makes his role potentially less effective. How is this only harmful if he doc'd mafia last night? Also, if he thinks he targeted mafia, why would he have targeted mafia? This I can answer myself, but I want to hear your answer .

Ffs shield, smarten up. He is dead wrong. What you are doing here is amalgamating shit the jak is saying and shit that I am saying. The WIFOM loop is not harmful, no matter who he protected. I can provide no reason why he would protect mafia. Therefore, his refusal to disclose the information makes no sense - which is what we are saying.

In the end, I don't actually care about the information. I am sure he can bring it forth later if it is pertain invent. I just don't like to let his bs reasons pass as logic without calling them out. Think of this as a "butter battle book" scenario. It really doesn't matter one way or the other; I am just here to fight stupidity (or stupidly).

What reasons of his are bs?
The WIFOM ones. Basically, the only reason he gave.

As far as saf goes, I know I am in the current process of scummifying my town MO. Perhaps he is in the same process. That would explain why he has appeared so scummy and could still be town. I guess it is possible. What is particularly interesting is that chap is also trying to set saf as a target. Is this a bussing case?

Sorry for my stupidty but I forget what MO is? And I assume this is a response to something else cause it doesn't really answer my question.

Also, as a NOTE TO THE MAFIA, NKing jak tonight is a bad idea. "But Shield, mafia always traditionally kills the claimed doc after he claims!" Well, last night you didn't, so there goes "traditionally." Also, because we have a vig/SK, the doc may actually help you by blocking the vig/SK kill that may have been intended for your mafia group. "But Shield, the doc may block our kill!!" That's a possibility too, but as you see, the vig/SK has good aim and having a doc around might be handy. Plus, you know all the watchers and trackers and cops are all up on the doc and his place, so there's a high chance you'll be caught if you mess with the doc.
Bottom line: don't kill jak the doc because you need him.

-SG7 ( )

Shield, by amalgamating two responses, you are now guilty of word twisting. FOS you!

[Leehar]

Official Simplified Vote Count

With 16 alive, it takes 9 to lynch


ChapCrap – Jak111, Doomyoshi, Rodion
New Guy1 – Everywhere, Ragian
DoomYoshi – S7C, Everywhere
S7C – Leehar, PMC
Safariguy – SG7

Deadline: 5/20/2012 9pm EST.

I hope this is right, I think it is but I am not positive.

Didn't pete vote opposite to me and shield generator instead of clever?

[Leehar]

With regards to this whole Jak night action saga, I wasn't sure what to think, but I must say now that I am coming round to saf and co's view that it doesn't make sense to not tell your action if you've claimed already.
This whole thing about you wanting to target the same person seems nonsensical at best. I assume you basically heavily think it's someone the mafia will target and you don't want him to die/ or want to bait mafia into attacking him so that you can save a life?
I still think it's less than a 50% chance of getting it right, so why not share the info while you can rather than wait until you possibly can't share it tomorrow? Remember you were so confident that you'd die N1, so where's the confidence gone that you think you'll magically survive and be able to share info with us tomorrow?

And please don't consider this as an attack/pressure on you. You're someone who's apparently a cleared townie, and since we can apparently trust your info, but as townies really don't get much more individual info, it's always good to have things in the open and not keep cards close to your chest like you seem to like doing.
It probably seems like an anachronism to think you're town yet still 'suspect' you if you will, but the more open and honest you are with us, the more we can trust what you say/share going forward; and that element of doubt we all have on you is just part and parcel of human nature

[new guy1]

@ Ragian- Please point out exactly what you want me to respond to. Im assuming you are asking about point number 2 and so will respond. Just because I want to limit claims and just because I dont think chap is scummy doesnt mean that I am against getting a claim. The players pressuring could know something IDK, for instance if they are cop and got guilty results, or for instance they picked up on something I didnt. I want to limit claims to prevent uncovering powerroles unnessesarily, but if the rest of the town decides he is worthy of a claim then I will not argue it, I will just likely not want EVERYONE claiming, if you get what I mean by that... Does that answer it well enough?

[jak111]

With regards to this whole Jak night action saga, I wasn't sure what to think, but I must say now that I am coming round to saf and co's view that it doesn't make sense to not tell your action if you've claimed already.
This whole thing about you wanting to target the same person seems nonsensical at best. I assume you basically heavily think it's someone the mafia will target and you don't want him to die/ or want to bait mafia into attacking him so that you can save a life?
I still think it's less than a 50% chance of getting it right, so why not share the info while you can rather than wait until you possibly can't share it tomorrow? Remember you were so confident that you'd die N1, so where's the confidence gone that you think you'll magically survive and be able to share info with us tomorrow?

And please don't consider this as an attack/pressure on you. You're someone who's apparently a cleared townie, and since we can apparently trust your info, but as townies really don't get much more individual info, it's always good to have things in the open and not keep cards close to your chest like you seem to like doing.
It probably seems like an anachronism to think you're town yet still 'suspect' you if you will, but the more open and honest you are with us, the more we can trust what you say/share going forward; and that element of doubt we all have on you is just part and parcel of human nature

Nope, no one's getting the information today, it sounds like a dick move I know, but it isn't relevant and no one has come forward to say I targeted someone who died. Plus with the possibility that mafia or town decided to role block me (If the town did, no offense meant, but that'd be poor logic to block the only claimed doc), my information is useless.

In all honesty, you can doubt me all you want to, because no ones come forward to say anything so either they know I'm town or they didn't see me near the dead. My information literally is only giving mafia an advantage.

[chapcrap]

it sounds like a dick move

Then it probably is.

[Some7hingCLEVER]

With regards to this whole Jak night action saga, I wasn't sure what to think, but I must say now that I am coming round to saf and co's view that it doesn't make sense to not tell your action if you've claimed already.
This whole thing about you wanting to target the same person seems nonsensical at best. I assume you basically heavily think it's someone the mafia will target and you don't want him to die/ or want to bait mafia into attacking him so that you can save a life?
I still think it's less than a 50% chance of getting it right, so why not share the info while you can rather than wait until you possibly can't share it tomorrow? Remember you were so confident that you'd die N1, so where's the confidence gone that you think you'll magically survive and be able to share info with us tomorrow?

And please don't consider this as an attack/pressure on you. You're someone who's apparently a cleared townie, and since we can apparently trust your info, but as townies really don't get much more individual info, it's always good to have things in the open and not keep cards close to your chest like you seem to like doing.
It probably seems like an anachronism to think you're town yet still 'suspect' you if you will, but the more open and honest you are with us, the more we can trust what you say/share going forward; and that element of doubt we all have on you is just part and parcel of human nature

Nope, no one's getting the information today, it sounds like a dick move I know, but it isn't relevant and no one has come forward to say I targeted someone who died. Plus with the possibility that mafia or town decided to role block me (If the town did, no offense meant, but that'd be poor logic to block the only claimed doc), my information is useless.

In all honesty, you can doubt me all you want to, because no ones come forward to say anything so either they know I'm town or they didn't see me near the dead. My information literally is only giving mafia an advantage.

+1
if he was caught doing something he wouldnt someone would come out and say it. that is really all. if he says something it can in possibility give mafia the chance to get him lynched by saying he didnt do that. it would be risky i know but doable. i agree his night action is not needed.

[thechuck51]

So what happens if we lose you to a nightkill between now and Day 3/4?

Also, if you're going to reveal the night info, what's the difference between doing it then and doing it now? Unless you're a cop where revealing innocent investigations is not very helpful until endgame, I don't see how that information is more valuable later than it is now. I think we need information now, we may not need it by Day 3 or 4.

I agree with saf.

I also think that since we got a mafia power role N1 we can go on the offensive a little. If anybody has any strong evidence based on their night actions they should let us know. I'm not saying if you are a cop and got an innocent result you should come forward but if you watched/tracked/whatever/ somebody and their actions fit into the flavor from night 1 we should know. And jak's night action would only help. You would think he is the obvious target for the next NK (I believe dazza was role-blocking him when he got vigged) so if he doesn't tell us today we probably wont ever find out.

[safariguy5]

With regards to this whole Jak night action saga, I wasn't sure what to think, but I must say now that I am coming round to saf and co's view that it doesn't make sense to not tell your action if you've claimed already.
This whole thing about you wanting to target the same person seems nonsensical at best. I assume you basically heavily think it's someone the mafia will target and you don't want him to die/ or want to bait mafia into attacking him so that you can save a life?
I still think it's less than a 50% chance of getting it right, so why not share the info while you can rather than wait until you possibly can't share it tomorrow? Remember you were so confident that you'd die N1, so where's the confidence gone that you think you'll magically survive and be able to share info with us tomorrow?

And please don't consider this as an attack/pressure on you. You're someone who's apparently a cleared townie, and since we can apparently trust your info, but as townies really don't get much more individual info, it's always good to have things in the open and not keep cards close to your chest like you seem to like doing.
It probably seems like an anachronism to think you're town yet still 'suspect' you if you will, but the more open and honest you are with us, the more we can trust what you say/share going forward; and that element of doubt we all have on you is just part and parcel of human nature

Nope, no one's getting the information today, it sounds like a dick move I know, but it isn't relevant and no one has come forward to say I targeted someone who died. Plus with the possibility that mafia or town decided to role block me (If the town did, no offense meant, but that'd be poor logic to block the only claimed doc), my information is useless.

In all honesty, you can doubt me all you want to, because no ones come forward to say anything so either they know I'm town or they didn't see me near the dead. My information literally is only giving mafia an advantage.

It IS relevant because there still remains the possibility that you're mafia fakeclaiming doc.

I'm tired of repeating myself, you're continued reluctance to reveal your night action makes me think you're very scared of getting caught in a lie.

I really don't care if I get lynched for this, but I'm going to vote jak until he gives us the night action. At this point, you could equally be mafia fakeclaiming doc as you could be the real doc.

[Ragian]

Just because I want to limit claims and just because I dont think chap is scummy doesnt mean that I am against getting a claim.

Yes, this is exactly what I went for. I think it's puzzling that you don't want a lot of claims and then pressures one of players you don't find particularly scummy. It's inconsistent if not scummy to me, because obviously you don't know if anyone has anything on him so in essence you could be voting for anybody and to me that screams: "I just want to pressure (perhaps lynch?) anyone regardless of the information stated." But you're trying to look townie while doing it.

To me, if you wanted to limit the claims, you would not vote for a guy you don't find particularly scummy.

But thanks, it did indeed answer my question

[gimli1990]

right now i am inclined to believe jak's claim just because of no counter claim.

but the fact he is not giving away the night action is puzzling to say the least just because you say who you protected lastnight does not mean you will protect the same person so it does not help and i do not see your reasoning on that.

so the just of it is you should just reveal it might help town in long run unless you are protecting yourself which is what i am starting to think based on the fact you are very confident you will survive

[gimli1990]

right now i am inclined to believe jak's claim just because of no counter claim.

but the fact he is not giving away the night action is puzzling to say the least just because you say who you protected lastnight does not mean you will protect the same person so it does not help and i do not see your reasoning on that.

so the just of it is you should just reveal it might help town in long run unless you are protecting yourself which is what i am starting to think based on the fact you are very confident you will survive

and i meant it will not help mafia just wanted to clarify that

[jak111]

~Sigh~ bring the votes back on then if I'm so scummy guys. Either man up and vote claimed doc, or actually start the day on something else. Here's what I can promise though, at least one mafia is lurking in the reveal thing because they know it stalls time. Saf, you know how to give the mafia their time.

To Gimili, I think it's highly likely I may protect the same person, so yes, the information will ONLY help mafia if I give it out. If I don't reach tomorrow to give the information out, oh well, believe me, it won't clear anyone.

[new guy1]

@ragain- I didnt vote for chap, I just said I would not be against a claim from him if the town thought it was purposeful. Also, I will look at the list of people voting jak for his claim/pressuring for him.

[Ragian]

... that's right, you didn't. I misspoke. Sorry

This is a lost cause unvote

[shieldgenerator7]

so saf, you're willing to potentially LYNCH -the- DOC just because he refuses to reveal his night action? So what, we get him to L-1, he says who he targeted, then mafia speed hammer and we get a dead doc. Is that what you're trying for here? If my vote wasn't already on you I'd vote you right now. Voting the uncounterclaimed doc just because he's trying to keep mafia in the dark

Reread coming later today or tomorrow.

-SG7 ( )

[chapcrap]

This game is ridiculous and I'm getting frustrated because no one can agree on anything. Everyone is trying to make a case on some other random person. Let's just take one case at a time, can we just do that?! Good grief!

So, jak, you admitted to being a dick, but you still won't reveal your night action? It won't help mafia at all. That's a silly argument. Anyone who is buying into that, needs to rethink the game.

As far as cases go, I'm not super inclined toward any specific case at the moment, but can we just pick one, look at it and then move on? Splitting the vote like this is killing me and it's not helping town in any way.

[safariguy5]

so saf, you're willing to potentially LYNCH -the- DOC just because he refuses to reveal his night action? So what, we get him to L-1, he says who he targeted, then mafia speed hammer and we get a dead doc. Is that what you're trying for here? If my vote wasn't already on you I'd vote you right now. Voting the uncounterclaimed doc just because he's trying to keep mafia in the dark

Reread coming later today or tomorrow.

-SG7 ( )

Two things wrong with that statement. First of all, we generally push someone to L-2. Second of all, if a mafia player were to speedhammer, we know exactly who to lynch tomorrow. Trading a power role for a scum, fair trade. It's basically the same thing as a cop getting a guilty result and revealing to kill mafia.

I'm willing to make that trade.

[everywhere116]

so saf, you're willing to potentially LYNCH -the- DOC just because he refuses to reveal his night action? So what, we get him to L-1, he says who he targeted, then mafia speed hammer and we get a dead doc. Is that what you're trying for here? If my vote wasn't already on you I'd vote you right now. Voting the uncounterclaimed doc just because he's trying to keep mafia in the dark

Reread coming later today or tomorrow.

-SG7 ( )

Two things wrong with that statement. First of all, we generally push someone to L-2. Second of all, if a mafia player were to speedhammer, we know exactly who to lynch tomorrow. Trading a power role for a scum, fair trade. It's basically the same thing as a cop getting a guilty result and revealing to kill mafia.

I'm willing to make that trade.

That isn't very likely. Can you say "faecal encephalopathy"?

[jak111]

No, I gave my answer, so Chap, Saf, good luck in pressuring me into it. 1.) People won't do it because they believe the claimed doc over a claimed VT and a guy we've been voting against. 2.) Just so the town can see, if they do decide to start voting the claimed doc I'll let them lynch me to show how poorly you two misjudge people and their intentions.

Which reminds me, stop sidetracking everyone in the game with this nonsense. Right now Chap is where we seem to have the most pressure on, so if a few would like to help out with that I'll give you a freebie in my mind, only because it wouldn't be keeping us at a stand still because Chap and Saf wish to stall the game into the night.

[chapcrap]

No, I gave my answer, so Chap, Saf, good luck in pressuring me into it. 1.) People won't do it because they believe the claimed doc over a claimed VT and a guy we've been voting against. 2.) Just so the town can see, if they do decide to start voting the claimed doc I'll let them lynch me to show how poorly you two misjudge people and their intentions.

Which reminds me, stop sidetracking everyone in the game with this nonsense. Right now Chap is where we seem to have the most pressure on, so if a few would like to help out with that I'll give you a freebie in my mind, only because it wouldn't be keeping us at a stand still because Chap and Saf wish to stall the game into the night.

I'm not trying to stall the game. I'm trying to move it along. Did you see my last post?

And don't try to play off, like I'm doing something wrong, when you already admitted you were being a dick.

[shieldgenerator7]

so saf, you're willing to potentially LYNCH -the- DOC just because he refuses to reveal his night action? So what, we get him to L-1, he says who he targeted, then mafia speed hammer and we get a dead doc. Is that what you're trying for here? If my vote wasn't already on you I'd vote you right now. Voting the uncounterclaimed doc just because he's trying to keep mafia in the dark

Reread coming later today or tomorrow.

-SG7 ( )

Two things wrong with that statement. First of all, we generally push someone to L-2. Second of all, if a mafia player were to speedhammer, we know exactly who to lynch tomorrow. Trading a power role for a scum, fair trade. It's basically the same thing as a cop getting a guilty result and revealing to kill mafia.

I'm willing to make that trade.

haha yeah I guess I overexagerated that but still the fact remains that you voted a doc because he wants save giving out his info. That's the meat of my argument, the rest was just details (albeit a tad misleading). You are willing to pressure

oh haha I wrote this had to leave and now posting this hours later... will probably get pastposted x9001

-SG7 ( )
-SG7 ( )

[jak111]

No, I gave my answer, so Chap, Saf, good luck in pressuring me into it. 1.) People won't do it because they believe the claimed doc over a claimed VT and a guy we've been voting against. 2.) Just so the town can see, if they do decide to start voting the claimed doc I'll let them lynch me to show how poorly you two misjudge people and their intentions.

Which reminds me, stop sidetracking everyone in the game with this nonsense. Right now Chap is where we seem to have the most pressure on, so if a few would like to help out with that I'll give you a freebie in my mind, only because it wouldn't be keeping us at a stand still because Chap and Saf wish to stall the game into the night.

I'm not trying to stall the game. I'm trying to move it along. Did you see my last post?

And don't try to play off, like I'm doing something wrong, when you already admitted you were being a dick.

Yes I saw your last post, let me sum it up though if you're gonna make a big deal about it.

"No one can agree on anything so I'm going to try and look town by saying we should focus on one case, meanwhile I have nothing else to contribute besides pushing the doc around and twisting the doc's words"

Yea, I think that nicely sums it up. It'd be great if everyone were active, but either their involved with this petty argument you and Saf keep bringing up, or they're laying low while the time progresses. You keep saying I admitted I was being a dick, when I said no such thing Chap. I said I know it SOUNDS like I'm being a dick. Stop twisting words bud, I wish more people were active to actually see this and pressure you further.

Fasposted.

[safariguy5]

You still haven't answered my question jak.

How can town tell the difference between a doc and a mafia fakeclaiming doc if the person does not reveal night actions?

In fact, how can town tell the difference between a fakeclaim and the real thing if in both cases, the claiming person refuses to divulge night actions?

This is very important here jak, I'm not trying to stall the game. As I've said before, by refusing to tell us your night action, you are allowing all possible mafia fakeclaims to not have to make up night actions. This means that as town, we cannot catch mafia faking night actions, which makes it harder to catch scum. I believe your silence has no logical or advantageous basis, and has the possibility of harming town.

And don't give me this "believe the town doctor over the VT" nonsense, reason and logic win out over any supposed "weight" behind a claim which has not been proved yet I might add.

[jak111]

You still haven't answered my question jak.

How can town tell the difference between a doc and a mafia fakeclaiming doc if the person does not reveal night actions?

In fact, how can town tell the difference between a fakeclaim and the real thing if in both cases, the claiming person refuses to divulge night actions?

This is very important here jak, I'm not trying to stall the game. As I've said before, by refusing to tell us your night action, you are allowing all possible mafia fakeclaims to not have to make up night actions. This means that as town, we cannot catch mafia faking night actions, which makes it harder to catch scum. I believe your silence has no logical or advantageous basis, and has the possibility of harming town.

And don't give me this "believe the town doctor over the VT" nonsense, reason and logic win out over any supposed "weight" behind a claim which has not been proved yet I might add.

You're right, logic does win, so does reason. Both of which I have given. I've given my reason and my logic if you'd care to have read my posts without being biased.

Logic: I will claim my night actions D3/D4, which isn't far away. If I keep quiet for now I have the chance of protecting someone.
Reason: If the mafia know who I targeted last night, they may attack someone different if I protect them again (which is a high possibility), or they may attack them when I choose someone different (Iffy, depending what I choose to do tonight).

If you don't like either of those.. I'm sorry Saf.. I'm sorry for thinking logic had any place in your thoughts.