US Military Action in Libya?

[saxitoxin]

Oh well that settles that then!

[General_Tao]

Lol, I haven't watched Fox in years, I don't even watch TV. I'm also well aware of propaganda in US media (see the buildup towards the Iraq war, not just on Fox but also in the NYT and elsewhere), but my opinion on Syria is based on first-hand accounts of many people who are from there (there actually is a huge community in Canada), and from more reliable alternative media outlets (Fisk, Cole etc).

[saxitoxin]

my opinion on Syria is based on first-hand accounts of many people who are from there (there actually is a huge community in Canada)

Uh huh ... and the Cuban "exile" community in Miami is widely considered to have an objective and accurate view about current events in Cuba ...

[General_Tao]

Cuba doesn't have anything like the political and ethnic complexity that you find in Syria. You're applying that black and white view to Syria and Libya. There are however many similarities between the Iranian and Cuban exile communities in the US, but Syria is a very different case.

[saxitoxin]

Cuba doesn't have anything like the political and ethnic complexity that you find in Syria. You're applying that black and white view to Syria and Libya. There are however many similarities between the Iranian and Cuban exile communities in the US, but Syria is a very different case.

Of course. There's always an excuse, it seems, why XYZ situation is an exception to every established trend. Maybe all your friends should go join the rats in Benghazi if they feel so supportive of the terrorist violence.

There are many people here in The Club of nationalities other than their profile flags display. However, I can tell - by your tone and manner - you are definitely Canadian; prostrating yourself in reverential awe of big brother America's most current military adventure then slinking off to decry last year's adventure as unnecessary excess. This is a tried-and-true character trait and my familiarity with the national psychology of Canada is second-to-none.

[General_Tao]

Yes indeed, I fully support my country's military effort in Libya. This is one instance of NATO, French, Canadian and US military power being put to very good use. I think we should go into Syria too if the Assad regime threatens to repeat the large-scale civilian population massacres his father did in 1982. BTW do you also think that the Hama massacres are Fox propaganda?

[saxitoxin]

Yes indeed, I fully support my country's military effort in Libya.

LOL, okay.

BTW do you also think that the Hama massacres are Fox propaganda?

For the record, I do support a NATO no-fly zone over Canada and immediate aerial bombardment of Harper regime compounds like the Rideau Hall command and control centre and The Citadel to stop the Montreal police from gunning-down civilians in the streets, as they've been wont to do as of late.

[General_Tao]

You defend Assad, but attack Montreal police for gunning down civilians?!?

[General_Tao]

And for the tweet above, 6 planes is 6 more than Gadhafi's air force, I'm sure the rebels are happy with the air support.

[saxitoxin]

And for the tweet above, 6 planes is 6 more than Gadhafi's air force, I'm sure the rebels are happy with the air support.

The Libyan People's Air Force has 300 top-line combat aircraft, half of which are Gen-3 and better fighters of French and Russian manufacture, like F1s and MiG-25s. If Canada wasn't hiding behind America's skirt, the Harper regime's 6 planes would be dropped out of the sky faster than you could put maple syrup on your hamburger.

You defend Assad, but attack Montreal police for gunning down civilians?!?

This is the eternal conundrum of white racism.

A police action to restore law and order in a brown country is a barbaric massacre that warrants foreign bombing.

A military assault to oppress First Nations people in a white country is a regrettable but necessary tool.

• Mohawk Territory Under Attack
  
  Today’s para-military assault by 500 Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) officers on sovereign Mohawk territory around Montreal was condemned by the international body investigating crimes against humanity in Canada.
  
  http://thahoketoteh.ws/2011/06/mohawk-t ... er-attack/

[General_Tao]

How many Mohawks did those evil mounties kill (I'm going to guess zero), because Assad Jr's 2011 body count already is in the 4 figures.

[Qwert]

general tao,its look that you belive in many things what US propaganda serving you.
NATO(US) bombarding mine country ,because they want to create new country,who never exist, so that US can build base(bondstil). They create much negative propaganda abouth unarmed civilian who whas killed from side of Police and army of Jugoslavia(they give number of 100000 killed,what its not true).Ofcourse Americans belive in that, so they start bombarding, and kill over 2000 civilians in serbia. What whas result- hate against america, new country who are most corupted,and criminal country in europe, US manage to build Base-expelled 200000 serbian civilian from hes homes. Now if you in mine position,what you will feel abouth NAto(US)?

Now for Libya-in wikipedia write that strenght of Army of rebels are 17000, and Goverment forces 20000-40000. If nato destroy all heavy weapons and vehicles, and if All people support Rebels, how these war still ongoing. If 6 milion people rise, not one army with light weapons can not hold for long period.I belive that very large number of people support Quadafy,and that rebels even with support of NAto(US), will most likely not in position to defeat Goverment troops, and soon or later they will try to find political solution(now they refuse),because they will not defeat quadafi in military way. Also i must say,that NAto(US) exagerate,when they give number of destroyed tanks,vehicles,radars.
Syrian goverment kill more unarmed civilians,then Libyan goverment(i dont count killed armed rebels), and NAto(US) dont react military only in words"no,no,bad assad, dont hurt civilians or else.......(you can add what you think will NATO(US) will need to do).

[General_Tao]

Qwert, what is your opinion of Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic, are those innocent partriots persecuted by NATO, or war criminals who have fueled ethnic hatred and implemented genocides? I guess you will say somewhere in between. FTR I don't agree with everything NATO has done there, like the use of depleted uranium, which is a war crime, but there is no doubt that genocide and ethnic cleansing was occurring and that Mladic had to be stopped by military means.

As to Libya, all of Qadhafi's supporters have been armed and trained for decades. Even if that is a small fraction of the country, that will still give you a large, well-trained, well-equiped army, whose sole mission is to maintain complete internal control. In a dictatorship like Libya (or syria) you will have a small minority which is tribally connected with the leadership and benefits financially from the regime. Additionally in Libya (as opposed to say tunisia) geogaphy is an issue, the country is huge and can't be liberated in a short time. It took a lot of time for the rebels to liberate most of Libya. It is only a matter of time before the nutcase in Tripoli gets smoked out.

Saxi, what happened in Hama in 1982, was that a "police action"? You didn't respond about it. Maybe you should ask that one Syrian twitter that you follow about it...

[saxitoxin]

Qwert, what is your opinion of Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic, are those innocent partriots persecuted by NATO, or war criminals who have fueled ethnic hatred and implemented genocides? I guess you will say somewhere in between. FTR I don't agree with everything NATO has done there, like the use of depleted uranium, which is a war crime, but there is no doubt that genocide and ethnic cleansing was occurring and that Mladic had to be stopped by military means.

As to Libya, all of Qadhafi's supporters have been armed and trained for decades. Even if that is a small fraction of the country, that will still give you a large, well-trained, well-equiped army, whose sole mission is to maintain complete internal control. In a dictatorship like Libya (or syria) you will have a small minority which is tribally connected with the leadership and benefits financially from the regime. Additionally in Libya (as opposed to say tunisia) geogaphy is an issue, the country is huge and can't be liberated in a short time. It took a lot of time for the rebels to liberate most of Libya. It is only a matter of time before the nutcase in Tripoli gets smoked out.

When NATO launched their genocide campaign against Serbia in 1999 the media parroted what U.S. Defence Secretary Cohen claimed, that 400,000 Kosovars had been killed. The current academically accepted figures top out at a high of 5,000, the vast majority of whom were most likely KLA terrorists.

I'm certain you were probably cheerleading the NATO genocide operation then, as you are Libya now, for the same reasons of mass civilian deaths. The military-industrial complex knows it has useful idiots like you who can't remember from one decade to the next and will - blank faced - dutifully wave the pom-poms they're issued.

Saxi, what happened in Hama in 1982, was that a "police action"? You didn't respond about it. Maybe you should ask that one Syrian twitter that you follow about it...

LOL - I was trying to give you a pass and save you more embarrassment. But it looks like you're up for it ...

Rifaat al-Assad, commander of the Pink Panther Militia, oversaw the Hama operation, subsequently fleeing Syria under an arrest warrant issued by the Syrian government. Rifaat and his son are the chief overseas spokesmen for the current Syrian "rebels" from their palatial estate in London. You're crowing about Hama oblivious to the fact that the architect of Hama is the spokesman of the "rebels" you support. Abdul Khaddam is considered by the U.S. and EU (and the little satellite countries like Canada) as the leader of the rebels. He has even admitted he is being funded by the U.S. (though that fact has never been acknowledged in any English-language media; ironically only Zionist media carried that interview - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COqBQYcrd9Q) Khaddam spent 20 years as Vice-President of Syria and was formerly the head of a secret death court responsible for executing opponents. I could go on all day ...

• These are the men at the head of the rebels the military-industrial complex has told you to support and brainwashed you to believe are innocent, bright-eyed, democratically-inspired, spontaneous, peaceful youth running around throwing flowers in the air while a cartoonish dictator sends sunglass-wearing stormtroopers in after them. It's all a black-and-white Hollywood blockbuster for you.

[General_Tao]

Rifaat Assad is not wanted by the Syrian govt for destroying Hama, he was exiled by his brother Hafez because he got too big and wanted to take over the country, not because he slaughtered 20,000 people. That massacre was ordered by H. Assad, who during his reign was an absolute ruler (unlike his son, who is weaker and rules by committee with hismore brutal brother Maher and his businessman brother in law Makhloof, who more or less owns the country). They rule the country as a clan, basing their power on their alawite minority, which was propped up in colonial times by the French to rule the sunni majority (classic divide and conquer colonial play).

I'm sure rifaat assad is financing a political effort from Marbella with the billions he stole from his country but if you think that this was the driving force behind 300,000 people coming out in Homs (a city about twice that size) last week you really don't understand the situation there...

You should try to keep an open mind instead of force-fitting facts and events to your black and white ideological framework.

[saxitoxin]

Rifaat Assad is not wanted by the Syrian govt for destroying Hama, he was exiled by his brother Hafez because he got too big and wanted to take over the country, not because he slaughtered 20,000 people. That massacre was ordered by H. Assad, who during his reign was an absolute ruler (unlike his son, who is weaker and rules by committee with hismore brutal brother Maher and his businessman brother in law Makhloof, who more or less owns the country). They rule the country as a clan, basing their power on their alawite minority, which was propped up in colonial times by the French to rule the sunni majority (classic divide and conquer colonial play).

I'm sure rifaat assad is financing a political effort from Marbella with the billions he stole from his country but if you think that this was the driving force behind 300,000 people coming out in Homs (a city about twice that size) last week you really don't understand the situation there...

You should try to keep an open mind instead of force-fitting facts and events to your black and white ideological framework.

Nor did I say he was wanted by the Syrian government for the police action in Hama. While I appreciate you cutting/pasting the Assad family tree from wikipedia as an (apparent?) attempt to convince us you really do know what you're talking about after having just had the hypocrisy of your posture reflected, this is irrelevant to the discussion.

• These are the only three facts that matter: (1) You say you are horrified by a 25 year-old police action in Hama out of one side of your mouth, then support the rats whose leaders pulled the trigger out of the other side over a government whose current head was 17 years old at the time. (2) You say you want the Syrian people to have a right to self-determination out of one side of your mouth, then support the rats whose leaders admitted they're funded by and beholden to the U.S. out of the other side. (3) You say you don't believe 1-2 million people demonstrated in Libya against the NATO genocide despite first-hand reports from Radio Italia, AJE and Reuters, then say 300,000 absolutely demonstrated in Syria in support of Al-Qaeda based on unverified Facebook posts being regurgitated as fact by lapdog media.

You are the same person expressing horror at the Serbians for killing 400,000 Kosovars in 1999, then yelling wildly that you were duped when it was revealed that number was only 4,000 (and most of those terrorists), vowing it never to happen again. But then it does. You're a useful idiot, wowed by a few waves of a flag and a Michael Bay film.

Why are you so frightened into reverential sycophancy of the United States and crazed, reactionary hatred of secular Arabs? All across the world people are demonstrating for freedom from imperialism. Join us -

[General_Tao]

Please don't lie, I never mentioned "400,000 Kosovars", that's your own silly argument and wording. There is however no doubt that mass killings and ethnic cleansing was committed in Yougoslavia, with Bosnians being the main victims. Feel free to argue about the body count in Srebrenica, which is widely described as the worst massacre on European soil since WW2.

What happened in Hama in 1982 is very relevant to what is taking place today. It is the same dictatorship/kleptocracy/clan that is in power, and the same people that are in the streets demanding regime change. There are no "rats", those are the people. You wouldn't know because I doubt you've ever met anyone from Syria or Libya in your life.

The only way one can avoid being a "useful idiot" is to have an open mind and try to inquire critically about world events, as opposed to being a prisoner to some black and white dogma. I think you'd have to be completely nuts or senile to give Qadhafi's writings any credibility, you seem to think he is a great benevolent leader as opposed to a murdering megalomaniac scum that is hated by the great majority of his people. No, I don't think 1-2 M people would willfully come out to support his regime, feel free to provide your AJE link supporting the contrary.

Do you also believe the Khmer Rouge were great (not a rhetorical question BTW, I'm really curious about how far out there you are...)?

[Qwert]

etnic cleansing, well i only know that 250000 serbian expel from croatia, and another 200000 expel from kosovo, and hes houses are confiscated from Croatia and Kosovo. and nobody responsibile for these.Now these two countries more or less etnic clean countries, and we all know that European Union, support "multietnic" countries. They mission its almost instant succes.

One detail,cluster bombs :
Nato(us) say quadafy use cluster bombs, and call hem war crime ? These same organisation who used same weapon in Yugoslavia bombardment 1999. And they have right to say that these is against humanity, and these is forbiden for use?
Even now in mine countrie some area are danger from cluster bombs who drop US and British.Do you know that they drop cluster bomb in cities. If NAto(US) have right to drop cluster bombs against civilians,i think that quadafy have same right to use cluster bombs do defent himself.
Nato comit many war crimes,and kill civilians in Iraq,afghanistan,yugoslavia,libya. And who whas guilty for that? Nobody.
Its these justice? And then you ask,why people dont have sympaty to US.

[BigBallinStalin]

General_Tao, would you mind listing the reasons why you currently support the NATO (US) war against Libya?

I'd like to clearly see why you support it.

[Symmetry]

A baptism of fire for General_Tao? Be nice people- he's new.

[BigBallinStalin]

Gotta strike while the iron is hot, Symmetry.

Into the furnace and out comes something better, hopefully.

[General_Tao]

Sure thing BBS. Let me first address qwert's points.

-Cluster bomb use in civilian areas is indeed a war crime. Even worse (far worse actually) was the use of depleted uranium by NATO in Yugoslavia, that's most unfortunate to say the least. Are there any studies about the health impact of radioactive material in the area?

-Reparations or resettlement of Serb (and other) refugees in Yu. should be part of the package. The EU shouldn't admit Croatia before that issue is addressed.

I'll get to Libya tomorrow.

[General_Tao]

General_Tao, would you mind listing the reasons why you currently support the NATO (US) war against Libya?

I'd like to clearly see why you support it.

First BBS, it is not a war against Libya, but a military intervention in support of Libyan rebels fighting against a repressive regime that doesn't represent its people.

We need to support that rebellion and the other revolutions from the arab spring, in tunisia, egypt, syria, yemen and bahrain. In libya (and syria too) the people are faced with dictatorial regimes and large armed militias that would kill millions of their citizens rather than surrender their iron grip on their country. If we hadn't gotten into Libya, tens of thousands would have been massacred in Benghazi and elsewhere, it would have made Sarajevo look like a pillow fight.

Qadhafi is a raving lunatic, drugged out megalomaniac who has kept most of his people in poverty while stashing one of the biggest fortunes in the world in swiss banks. Compared to him even Saddam was far better.

Unlike in Iraq and maybe even afghanistan, where most people don't support foreign intervention, this is a much easier an cheaper operation, all you have to do is provide support and let the people do a lot of the heavy lifting.

I think the US and most of NATO is going in for less noble intentions, mainly to position themselves for what is a huge oil bonanza, but chances are the locals will be strong enough to take care of their own, if they are strong enough to unseat Qadhafis. New nations have been forged from the fire of revolution, it is an age old process.

I would be in favor of a limited air support and small ground operation that would leave the country right after Qadhafi falls, which will probably take another 6-12 months tops.

[saxitoxin]

I received an email from a friend whose colleague is of the (non-Baathist) Communist Party of Syria (anti-revisionist) [not currently in Syria, for purpose of full disclosure] with new news of the NATO/Al-Qaeda War Against the Syrian people:

• - The "peaceful protesters" are now claiming the Assad government is attacking them with "genies." (This is the radical Islamist, Taliban-like regime that will take-over Syria if the secular Assad government falls.)
  
  - Amjad Saeed Qadri, one of the "peaceful youth", yesterday declared himself "Emir of Qatana." An Islamist militia has formed and is now in control of the town. Sharia courts being established by the rats.
  
  - In Homs, Syrians from the Christian and Alawi minorities are being threatened with execution by the peaceful protesters and their shops torched. The Syrian Arab Army has converged on Homs and is ready to enter the city with massive force if a genocide against the Christian and Alawi minorities begins (though it's a catch-22 as, if they do, the media of the western military-industrial complex will claim it was, in fact, the Syrian Arab Army committing the genocide and NATO must go in and kill everyone for their own good).

other revolutions from the arab spring, in tunisia, egypt

LOL, yeah Egypt turned out great - an iron-fisted military junta led by Donald Rumsfeld's old friend. "Arab Spring" is a hilarious little marketing catchphrase thought-up in a focus group on Madison Avenue and pushed-out by the Civil Affairs specialists at U.S. Central Command. I laugh when I hear people say it with a straight face as though they're supporting something other than Exxon-Mobil and BP.

[thegreekdog]

General_Tao, would you mind listing the reasons why you currently support the NATO (US) war against Libya?

I'd like to clearly see why you support it.

First BBS, it is not a war against Libya, but a military intervention in support of Libyan rebels fighting against a repressive regime that doesn't represent its people.

We need to support that rebellion and the other revolutions from the arab spring, in tunisia, egypt, syria, yemen and bahrain. In libya (and syria too) the people are faced with dictatorial regimes and large armed militias that would kill millions of their citizens rather than surrender their iron grip on their country. If we hadn't gotten into Libya, tens of thousands would have been massacred in Benghazi and elsewhere, it would have made Sarajevo look like a pillow fight.

Qadhafi is a raving lunatic, drugged out megalomaniac who has kept most of his people in poverty while stashing one of the biggest fortunes in the world in swiss banks. Compared to him even Saddam was far better.

Unlike in Iraq and maybe even afghanistan, where most people don't support foreign intervention, this is a much easier an cheaper operation, all you have to do is provide support and let the people do a lot of the heavy lifting.

I think the US and most of NATO is going in for less noble intentions, mainly to position themselves for what is a huge oil bonanza, but chances are the locals will be strong enough to take care of their own, if they are strong enough to unseat Qadhafis. New nations have been forged from the fire of revolution, it is an age old process.

I would be in favor of a limited air support and small ground operation that would leave the country right after Qadhafi falls, which will probably take another 6-12 months tops.

Follow-up questions:

(1) Do you support intervention in any sovereign country where there is a repressive regime?
(2) Do you think that China should intervene in the United States in support of the Tea Party movement? (just sort of poking fun there).
(3) It appears that you would like the United States to continue to be the "world's police." Is this the case? Is there a line to be drawn as to where the United States should intervene and why? It appears that you believe the US should not attack a sovereign nation to steal its natural resources (ostensibly our invasion for Iraq was for this purpose). Is this also the case?