F400 Clan Ranking - Needs Repair

[IcePack]

Archive

[betiko]

wow fallen, you're now super close from us!!

[iAmCaffeine]

Legion though.

[IcePack]

wow fallen, you're now super close from us!!

I am aiming to take 5th from you shortly.

[betiko]

wow fallen, you're now super close from us!!

I am aiming to take 5th from you shortly.

We are looking good to beat FOED in the random cup final and to beat TSM with a huge margin in cc5 quarter finals. You guys could make a huge leap jump if you beat ace in your cc5 quarter finals... But i doubt you would catch us with these 2 war results comming for us, especially with the margin we have against tsm.
Bottom line there are good chances to see a fall vs lhdd in cc5 semi finals, and both clans will be aiming much higher than that 5th place you re talking about...
Pure speculation, but imagine the points tsm and ace would lose if we both make it... Oh and who knows, maybe legion can beat kort?

Looks like we re re-shuffling the entire top 5-10

[IcePack]

I agree - there is a lot of potential for change but that's a lot of speculation and maybes to consider

We have a result vs FOED getting entered soon as well, 27-22 I think once the last game completes but that'll be our last major entry until the ACE war completes.

[betiko]

I agree - there is a lot of potential for change but that's a lot of speculation and maybes to consider

We have a result vs FOED getting entered soon as well, 27-22 I think once the last game completes but that'll be our last major entry until the ACE war completes.

oh well, if we beat tsm and foed and you beat ace (+that pending foed victory you have) you might as well over take us... it's gonna be close!
w'ere probably talking about the june 1st update, or may 15th. if all wars are over make the update on may 15th!!! that one will be super interesting.

[WILLIAMS5232]

nice to see pig holding strong at 16

[IcePack]

nice to see pig holding strong at 16

PIG will fall off the rankings altogether pretty soon

[WILLIAMS5232]

nice to see pig holding strong at 16

PIG will fall off the rankings altogether pretty soon

well, i guess that will be it then....... looks like pigs will finally get rented.

[JPlo64]

It's interesting that TSM is #1 in 1 year rankings...
Do they deserve it? I would think not.
Seems like it's the byproduct of not playing in the leagues.
From now on, I think I will consider any clan that doesn't play in any the leagues as "unranked."
(unless some handicap is given to the league scores since it is the case that they uniformly bring down one's rankings.)

[IcePack]

It's interesting that TSM is #1 in 1 year rankings...
Do they deserve it? I would think not.
Seems like it's the byproduct of not playing in the leagues.
From now on, I think I will consider any clan that doesn't play in any the leagues as "unranked."
(unless some handicap is given to the league scores since it is the case that they uniformly bring down one's rankings.)

That's untrue, I know for a fact leagues improve Fallen's rankings consistently

[JPlo64]

It's interesting that TSM is #1 in 1 year rankings...
Do they deserve it? I would think not.
Seems like it's the byproduct of not playing in the leagues.
From now on, I think I will consider any clan that doesn't play in any the leagues as "unranked."
(unless some handicap is given to the league scores since it is the case that they uniformly bring down one's rankings.)

That's untrue, I know for a fact leagues improve Fallen's rankings consistently

You are correct.... It is not uniform
BUt in general it is the case. At least for the top 10.
Just take a look at the raw scores in F41 vs Fice

[IcePack]

It's interesting that TSM is #1 in 1 year rankings...
Do they deserve it? I would think not.
Seems like it's the byproduct of not playing in the leagues.
From now on, I think I will consider any clan that doesn't play in any the leagues as "unranked."
(unless some handicap is given to the league scores since it is the case that they uniformly bring down one's rankings.)

Seems like a good year to me. They are #4 even when looking at 2 year, not a huge difference for the 1 year all things considered.

KORT TSM 35 25 06/14/14
TSM SOH 10 6 06/19/14
TSM AFOS 8 8 06/29/14
TSM G1 11 5 07/21/14
TSM MM 10 6 07/26/14
TSM ATN 29 12 09/10/14
TSM ACE 8 6 11/25/14
TSM FOED 33 28 01/20/15

[JPlo64]

It's interesting that TSM is #1 in 1 year rankings...
Do they deserve it? I would think not.
Seems like it's the byproduct of not playing in the leagues.
From now on, I think I will consider any clan that doesn't play in any the leagues as "unranked."
(unless some handicap is given to the league scores since it is the case that they uniformly bring down one's rankings.)

Seems like a good year to me. They are #4 even when looking at 2 year, not a huge difference for the 1 year all things considered.

KORT TSM 35 25 06/14/14
TSM SOH 10 6 06/19/14
TSM AFOS 8 8 06/29/14
TSM G1 11 5 07/21/14
TSM MM 10 6 07/26/14
TSM ATN 29 12 09/10/14
TSM ACE 8 6 11/25/14
TSM FOED 33 28 01/20/15

It's not reallly a knock on TSM or their performance.
Just the observation that the raw scores from leagues are, for whatever reason, significantly lower than from wars. SO it appears that, for the F400, playing in Leagues hurts one's raw score. Thus devaluing the validity of their rankings, in my mind.
Maybe, to come up with a more true ranking, one could look at the F40 and Fice rankings separately and bring them together as if they weren't calculated with the same formula.

[IcePack]

It's interesting that TSM is #1 in 1 year rankings...
Do they deserve it? I would think not.
Seems like it's the byproduct of not playing in the leagues.
From now on, I think I will consider any clan that doesn't play in any the leagues as "unranked."
(unless some handicap is given to the league scores since it is the case that they uniformly bring down one's rankings.)

Seems like a good year to me. They are #4 even when looking at 2 year, not a huge difference for the 1 year all things considered.

KORT TSM 35 25 06/14/14
TSM SOH 10 6 06/19/14
TSM AFOS 8 8 06/29/14
TSM G1 11 5 07/21/14
TSM MM 10 6 07/26/14
TSM ATN 29 12 09/10/14
TSM ACE 8 6 11/25/14
TSM FOED 33 28 01/20/15

It's not reallly a knock on TSM or their performance.
Just the observation that the raw scores from leagues are, for whatever reason, significantly lower than from wars. SO it appears that, for the F400, playing in Leagues hurts one's raw score. Thus devaluing the validity of their rankings, in my mind.
Maybe, to come up with a more true ranking, one could look at the F40 and Fice rankings separately and bring them together as if they weren't calculated with the same formula.

What do you mean by raw score? You mean just the overall #'? Those have nothing to do with one another, that doesn't get added together / averaged thus dragging a score down. Not how it works at all really. I'm not sure your understanding the rankings

[chemefreak]

Legion though.

I know, right? Close loss to the Pack and we are hanging with KORT. I'm finally comfortable calling us a Top 10 clan.

Although, we've been here before several years ago. Curious to see if we can get over that hurdle.

[JPlo64]

It's interesting that TSM is #1 in 1 year rankings...
Do they deserve it? I would think not.
Seems like it's the byproduct of not playing in the leagues.
From now on, I think I will consider any clan that doesn't play in any the leagues as "unranked."
(unless some handicap is given to the league scores since it is the case that they uniformly bring down one's rankings.)

Seems like a good year to me. They are #4 even when looking at 2 year, not a huge difference for the 1 year all things considered.

KORT TSM 35 25 06/14/14
TSM SOH 10 6 06/19/14
TSM AFOS 8 8 06/29/14
TSM G1 11 5 07/21/14
TSM MM 10 6 07/26/14
TSM ATN 29 12 09/10/14
TSM ACE 8 6 11/25/14
TSM FOED 33 28 01/20/15

It's not reallly a knock on TSM or their performance.
Just the observation that the raw scores from leagues are, for whatever reason, significantly lower than from wars. SO it appears that, for the F400, playing in Leagues hurts one's raw score. Thus devaluing the validity of their rankings, in my mind.
Maybe, to come up with a more true ranking, one could look at the F40 and Fice rankings separately and bring them together as if they weren't calculated with the same formula.

What do you mean by raw score? You mean just the overall #'? Those have nothing to do with one another, that doesn't get added together / averaged thus dragging a score down. Not how it works at all really.

Well... then maybe I miss-understand them?
I was under the impression that it was the same formula. But F41 was only wars, Fice only leagues. Thus, F400 is inherently a composition of the 2? (but, of course, not a uniform composition across all clans)

[IcePack]

It's interesting that TSM is #1 in 1 year rankings...
Do they deserve it? I would think not.
Seems like it's the byproduct of not playing in the leagues.
From now on, I think I will consider any clan that doesn't play in any the leagues as "unranked."
(unless some handicap is given to the league scores since it is the case that they uniformly bring down one's rankings.)

Seems like a good year to me. They are #4 even when looking at 2 year, not a huge difference for the 1 year all things considered.

KORT TSM 35 25 06/14/14
TSM SOH 10 6 06/19/14
TSM AFOS 8 8 06/29/14
TSM G1 11 5 07/21/14
TSM MM 10 6 07/26/14
TSM ATN 29 12 09/10/14
TSM ACE 8 6 11/25/14
TSM FOED 33 28 01/20/15

It's not reallly a knock on TSM or their performance.
Just the observation that the raw scores from leagues are, for whatever reason, significantly lower than from wars. SO it appears that, for the F400, playing in Leagues hurts one's raw score. Thus devaluing the validity of their rankings, in my mind.
Maybe, to come up with a more true ranking, one could look at the F40 and Fice rankings separately and bring them together as if they weren't calculated with the same formula.

What do you mean by raw score? You mean just the overall #'? Those have nothing to do with one another, that doesn't get added together / averaged thus dragging a score down. Not how it works at all really.

Well... then maybe I miss-understand them?
I was under the impression that it was the same formula. But F41 was only wars, Fice only leagues. Thus, F400 is inherently a composition of the 2? (but, of course, not a uniform composition across all clans)

It uses the same formula but not all the same data. Everything recalculates based on information included in that ranking only. But it really doesn't work out the way you're thinking. Consider them separate scores ranking them in those specific categories only, not combined or averaged in anyway to complete the F400.

[iAmCaffeine]

Legion though.

I know, right? Close loss to the Pack and we are hanging with KORT. I'm finally comfortable calling us a Top 10 clan.

Although, we've been here before several years ago. Curious to see if we can get over that hurdle.

WOO GOO!!

[betiko]

I completely agree with jplo here.
Clans get hammered by league results. Those skirmishes have way too little games to use a f400 type of ranking. Like if you are a high ranked clan and you meet a very low ranked clan and you win 11-5 I'm pretty sure that results in negative points for the ranking... You just can't expect the win rates you have in a normal war on a skirmish, also you can get easily tied or lose vs anyone. just look at normal wars and how some underdogs get the head start sometimes.
We are ahead of TSM in the f41, and have won the second division with a record of 102-58. I think it's a very decent win rate (12 victories 6 draws 2 defeats). Well those league games got us completely hammered and TSM has a huge lead in the f400 over us. Even if we beat them with a very significant margin for the CC5, I'm really not sure we can overtake them in the f400. We have won all our wars in the last year and a half, unlike tsm, and we've played twice more wars than them. Do you know how much margin we would need to beat them by to overtake them?

[Fewnix]

My read is that, subject to a few tweaks now and then, there is a lot of rough agreement amongst the different ranking systems when it comes to something like - which are the 8?, 10?, 12? top clans. The Legion has been about 9th, 8th or 7th in F400 for a while now, went through the long qualifying phase of CL6 into the Premier League (top 12/11 clans) and should end up at least -7th or 6th there by points. After a long haul through the elimination brackets of CCUP5 - 32 clans started, we were one of 16 that eliminated, took out our oppo, and moved to the second round. Now we are one of 8 clans in what they call the quarter finals once we beat KORT will move to the semi-finals,

[IcePack]

I completely agree with jplo here.
Clans get hammered by league results. Those skirmishes have way too little games to use a f400 type of ranking. Like if you are a high ranked clan and you meet a very low ranked clan and you win 11-5 I'm pretty sure that results in negative points for the ranking... You just can't expect the win rates you have in a normal war on a skirmish, also you can get easily tied or lose vs anyone. just look at normal wars and how some underdogs get the head start sometimes.
We are ahead of TSM in the f41, and have won the second division with a record of 102-58. I think it's a very decent win rate (12 victories 6 draws 2 defeats). Well those league games got us completely hammered and TSM has a huge lead in the f400 over us. Even if we beat them with a very significant margin for the CC5, I'm really not sure we can overtake them in the f400. We have won all our wars in the last year and a half, unlike tsm, and we've played twice more wars than them. Do you know how much margin we would need to beat them by to overtake them?

This isn't a leap ladder. So beating a clan doesn't auto out you ahead of the other (not should it) you've got to remember LHDD had fallen down the rankings and is climbing it's way back up only recently while TSM has stayed fairly high and performed well.

I'm pretty confident that it would still not be a negative draw overall for LHDD in leagues, maybe the qualification phase but division phases are pretty good.

[betiko]

I completely agree with jplo here.
Clans get hammered by league results. Those skirmishes have way too little games to use a f400 type of ranking. Like if you are a high ranked clan and you meet a very low ranked clan and you win 11-5 I'm pretty sure that results in negative points for the ranking... You just can't expect the win rates you have in a normal war on a skirmish, also you can get easily tied or lose vs anyone. just look at normal wars and how some underdogs get the head start sometimes.
We are ahead of TSM in the f41, and have won the second division with a record of 102-58. I think it's a very decent win rate (12 victories 6 draws 2 defeats). Well those league games got us completely hammered and TSM has a huge lead in the f400 over us. Even if we beat them with a very significant margin for the CC5, I'm really not sure we can overtake them in the f400. We have won all our wars in the last year and a half, unlike tsm, and we've played twice more wars than them. Do you know how much margin we would need to beat them by to overtake them?

This isn't a leap ladder. So beating a clan doesn't auto out you ahead of the other (not should it) you've got to remember LHDD had fallen down the rankings and is climbing it's way back up only recently while TSM has stayed fairly high and performed well.

I'm pretty confident that it would still not be a negative draw overall for LHDD in leagues, maybe the qualification phase but division phases are pretty good.

who said anything about a leap ladder? we are ahead of them in the F41 and we have just won the second division... that gives a result of almost 100 points difference in the f400 in their favour! all they did in this past year is to beat foed and aeternus and lose with a big margin against kort. As far as I know you only count the last 2 year's results and we've had a perfect slate fort the last year and a half winning 9 straight wars against mostly higher ranked clans than us at the time. We are probably going to beat them by a significant margin of over 10 games and they will still most likely be still ahead of us... So yeah, I think that leagues screw a clan's f400 ranking big time even if you do rather good in them..

[IcePack]

Again LHDD has only had a recent climb, the F41 your pointing to is feb 1 and very recent.
If you look a year ago LHDD was 22nd and TSM was 5th, so yes you've done well this year - you've moved from outside top 20 into top 6 but TSM has only needed to maintain not climb.

I completely agree with jplo here.
Clans get hammered by league results. Those skirmishes have way too little games to use a f400 type of ranking. Like if you are a high ranked clan and you meet a very low ranked clan and you win 11-5 I'm pretty sure that results in negative points for the ranking... You just can't expect the win rates you have in a normal war on a skirmish, also you can get easily tied or lose vs anyone. just look at normal wars and how some underdogs get the head start sometimes.
We are ahead of TSM in the f41, and have won the second division with a record of 102-58. I think it's a very decent win rate (12 victories 6 draws 2 defeats). Well those league games got us completely hammered and TSM has a huge lead in the f400 over us. Even if we beat them with a very significant margin for the CC5, I'm really not sure we can overtake them in the f400. We have won all our wars in the last year and a half, unlike tsm, and we've played twice more wars than them. Do you know how much margin we would need to beat them by to overtake them?

This isn't a leap ladder. So beating a clan doesn't auto out you ahead of the other (not should it) you've got to remember LHDD had fallen down the rankings and is climbing it's way back up only recently while TSM has stayed fairly high and performed well.

I'm pretty confident that it would still not be a negative draw overall for LHDD in leagues, maybe the qualification phase but division phases are pretty good.

who said anything about a leap ladder? we are ahead of them in the F41 and we have just won the second division... that gives a result of almost 100 points difference in the f400 in their favour! all they did in this past year is to beat foed and aeternus and lose with a big margin against kort. As far as I know you only count the last 2 year's results and we've had a perfect slate fort the last year and a half winning 9 straight wars against mostly higher ranked clans than us at the time. We are probably going to beat them by a significant margin of over 10 games and they will still most likely be still ahead of us... So yeah, I think that leagues screw a clan's f400 ranking big time even if you do rather good in them..