US Military Action in Libya?

[thegreekdog]

By the way, and for what it's worth, these kinds of threads are the reasons why I love this website. This kind of excellent debate and discussion is not available anywhere else. Kudos to you guys.

[General_Tao]

(1) Do you support intervention in any sovereign country where there is a repressive regime?

Only when that repressive regime threatens to exterminate its population. Otherwise, I support political action against those regimes, as was done in Egypt and Tunisia, where those regimes fell simply because the US and Europe pulled the plug.


(3) It appears that you would like the United States to continue to be the "world's police."

The US has had more than 1000 US Bases and/or Military Installations abroad, it has been the "world's police" for decades now. In most cases the US can "intervene" and bring change just by political action, as in Egypt or Tunisia. And yes Iraq was a very wrong military intervention, it wasn't done with that people's consent (unlike in Libya, which is a legitimate military intervention).

[General_Tao]

I received an email from a friend whose colleague is of the (non-Baathist) Communist Party of Syria (anti-revisionist)

Lols.

[thegreekdog]

(3) It appears that you would like the United States to continue to be the "world's police."

The US has had more than 1000 US Bases and/or Military Installations abroad, it has been the "world's police" for decades now. In most cases the US can "intervene" and bring change just by political action, as in Egypt or Tunisia. And yes Iraq was a very wrong military intervention, it wasn't done with that people's consent (unlike in Libya, which is a legitimate military intervention).

I'm not sure hubris is a reason to continue being the world's police. I am supportive of any US domestic efforts to have 0 US bases and military installations abroad and to stop involving ourselves in other countries' sovereignty.

[General_Tao]

I agree with that, TGD.

[Qwert]

General Tao
Only when that repressive regime threatens to exterminate its population

where you find these in libya?

And yes Iraq was a very wrong military intervention, it wasn't done with that people's consent (unlike in Libya, which is a legitimate military intervention).

Vietnam?Yugoslavia?
Do you realised how much will US be wealthy if You dont spend so much money on these 1000 bases, and to spend to much money on wars every year?
Can you imagine all these money spend on medical research,or in industry? Not war industry but civilian industry.
Bigest US progres are in War Industry,in creation of weapons for Mass destruction, and US its in no1 place for these. Why US dont be in no1 place for food production, or car production,or energy production? what its wrong with these industries?

[General_Tao]

No argument with that qwerp, the staggering military spending in the US has set the country back economically.

In Libya, there is no doubt that Qadhafi would have ruthlessly retaliated against the western half of the country which rose up against him to overthrow his regime.

[GreecePwns]

Is the argument that the US is involved because he was killing innocent civilians, or that the US is involved because he is killing those rising up against him?

[General_Tao]

Are you implying that the Libyan people actually support Qadhafi? I'd put his support at around 15-25%, his tribe in Misrata, some hardcore brainwashed people who buy into his personality cult and his little green book crap. The rest of the country hates him, he is widely reviled through the arab world.

As far as the type of retaliation you could expect from Qadhafi, consider the recent massacre of 1,200 unarmed political prisoners. They were gathered in the courtyard and mowed down from the walltops after they rebelled. Qadhafi's brother in law promised them no retaliation if they surrendered but the terms were subsequently modified...

http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2011/0 ... -in-libya/

[Phatscotty]

The military is the only thing holding up our Monetary Hegemonic policy. This will be unwound as more oil producers demand Euros for their oil, since dollar to them are always going to be worth less for a while to come.

[saxitoxin]

As far as the type of retaliation you could expect from Qadhafi, consider the recent massacre of 1,200 unarmed political prisoners.

Unmentioned by your source, this 1996 event involved a prison riot in a special facility that was only holding members of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (including snipers, gunmen, failed suicide bombers and rapists) which is the current Libya affiliate of Al-Qaeda. IOW, you're saying the rebels are motivated in their dislike of the Jamahriyah government because police fired back at a rioting group of Al-Qaeda partisans.

I thought we were all supposed to buy the line that the Benghazi caliphate were peaceful college students throwing flowers in the air and who all reject Al-Qaeda; not armed-to-the-teeth radical Islamists trying to overthrow a secular Arab government?

The official lie justifying the war on Libya is wound so tight that a tug on a single string sends it unraveling in a million directions.

[patches70]

Are you implying that the Libyan people actually support Qadhafi? I'd put his support at around 15-25%, his tribe in Misrata, some hardcore brainwashed people who buy into his personality cult and his little green book crap. The rest of the country hates him, he is widely reviled through the arab world.

As far as the type of retaliation you could expect from Qadhafi, consider the recent massacre of 1,200 unarmed political prisoners. They were gathered in the courtyard and mowed down from the walltops after they rebelled. Qadhafi's brother in law promised them no retaliation if they surrendered but the terms were subsequently modified...

http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2011/0 ... -in-libya/

None of that really makes any difference to the United States. We have a Constitution that is clear on this, only the Congress has the power to make war.

You are against Iraq and Afghanistan. I would have preferred that our country declare formal war, but regardless, in both cases the Congress voted to allow military intervention.

There was no such vote for Libya. None at all. Congress was not even consulted. This is so far and away from the limitations imposed by our Constitution that it is mind boggling.

Doesn't matter if Gadhafi is slaughtering his people or not. Libya is not threatening the United States in the slightest. Thus, unless Congress wishes to intervene, then we should not be engaging in acts of war against Libya. Period.

If the Libyan people wish to rise up and overthrow their dictator, then more power to them! I wish them luck and say "happy hunting".
But,
if the rebels come to us and say "Help us"
I say-
"Why? Why should we help you? If you are successful and are able to overthrow the dictator, then what? What is your plan? Tell me your plan so that I may better judge to see if it is in my interest to help you."

The rebels have no plan. They lack the money, the know how and the ability to be able to govern Libya if they prevail. They are a bunch of screwups (I'm being tactful with that) at best. Worse case scenario is that they are as bad or worse than the current evil that resides.

The current dictator was more or less in line with what the US wanted. He is an evil we know, the rebels are an evil we do not know. Which is better? Who can say.

I say this though-

The US does not have the wisdom to determine which is better than the other.

All the more reason to stay out of it. And a resounding "HELL NO!" when the rebels beg us for money. Money we don't have that we must borrow and pay interest on. That interest born by the American people, and for what? For something we don't know.

Without consent of Congress, without a pending or actual attack on the United States, there is no way we have any reason to be involved militarily against Libya, for or against the rebels.

Europe is another matter. They have vested interests in Libya. So be it. Their interests are not our interests. You Canadians have no choice, you have to march with the Queen's army, I understand that, and wish you all the best luck and may you crush your enemy, whomever he might be. But the United States is not obligated to march with the Queen's army.

If all the nations of Europe are unable to defeat a two bit dictator like Gadhafi, then that in itself is reason enough that the US should not be involved. For too long Europe has had the US shoulder all the weight of projection of power. It is time for Europe to stand on it's own feet. The US has enough problems of it's own to go off creating more problems in Libya.....

And of course, there is that pesky Constitutional thing as well. Obama is in violation of the War Power's Act (in itself a subversion of the Constitution). Europe, you have to stand on your own.

But don't worry, if Libya defeats the rebels and then invades Europe, you can bet your azz that the US will chase him right out in two shakes of a cat's tail. Until then, best 'o luck to ya's!

[Qwert]

hmm, why western propaganda dont write abouth battle of brega? Everytime when rebels become defeated,western propaganda try to minimize these,and when rebels get some ground,they overeacted and write to much.
With huge casualty rebels move back to ajdabia, and these conclude battle of brega (4th).
General Tao,i dont know what its number of "free" people in East Part of Libya,where its capital Bengazi, but its look that rebels need to force people to fight against Goverment troops,or else they will lost war.

[Phatscotty]

The escalation of the fighting in Libya is going to go on for decades.

[Qwert]

thanks to NAto(us), they have large part of escalation of war.

[spurgistan]

This is probably not a good thing, on the whole

[General_Tao]

This is a tweet from the same Guardian page linked above; different country but same region:

http://www.tweetdeck.com/twitter/MalathAumran/~kqwgn

[Qwert]

its good that they for any murder can blame Pro-Guadafy people.

[GreecePwns]

Oh, look at that. The rebels are losing and are splitting into factions as we speak. Looks like this one is pretty much over. The onlything stopping Ghaddafi forces from totally overrunning the disorganized and incompetent rebels are the NATO bombs.

[Qwert]

Norwegian move back from bombardment. Its look that NATO(US),need to activate plan B- send ground forces.

[saxitoxin]

Xcuse brevity, on my idroid atm w wifi connection weaker than aog's hymen

Neway ... AP reporting Youns' son ... during burial in the rats capital of benghazi ... cried out "where is the Brother Leader? Save us!" In ref to COL Qaddafi. He has now disappeared, either counter defecting to COL Q's side with his father's troops or being "disappeared" by the rats secret police.

Now that norway has surrendered and fled back to oslo with their tail between their legs, qwert is right. US will be prepping a massive land invasion to install some group of obscure Libyans who live in virginia as the "provisional" (permanent) "govt? (Dictatorship) a la Karzai and the Klown Krew of Kabul. Obama will order Canada or UK to provoid another well-fed, plump general to prance around as the pretend leader of the invasion so it has an international flavour ... as authentically international as Taco Bell is authentically Mexican ...

[General_Tao]

I guess if Norway leaves, the whole operation is gonna collapse. At least that's the scenario in saxi's wet dream.

That POS qaddafi is going to be dead before the London olympics, along with his Fd up litter.

[Qwert]

well if you go back in history, any US military intervention who they call "victory",in long distance become defeat.
Korea war-result totaly opposite what US want,
VIetnam War-result also negative
Yugoslav bombardmment,creation of new country Kosovo, who in all history of EUROPE never exist,but big power want to show that they can do everything,even creation of new countries by force, result -almost etnic clean country, again failure .
Afgan War-result will be negative
Iraq war-US declare victory, i think that soon will everyone see big failure.
Libya war- unfortunatly even if they remove Quadafy, situation will escalating,because West tribes and East tribes are something similar to North and South Korea, and we can expect higher escalation of tribal wars, something what quadafy hold for 41 year in peace.

[GreecePwns]

I guess if Norway leaves, the whole operation is gonna collapse. At least that's the scenario in saxi's wet dream.

That POS qaddafi is going to be dead before the London olympics, along with his Fd up litter.

The rebels are already breaking up into smaller groups and are totally disorganized. Look at how overpowering their forces are and they are making no progress whatsoever. Soon the US will realize the only way to win is to commit ground troops.

And now this:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/internatio ... rvOl0hXf0I

Seirously? Using TV to oppress citizens? Or is it to rally supporters? Which one? This is an act of international terrorism that will most likely go unpunished.

[General_Tao]

Acts of international terrorism - you mean like the Lockerbie bombing?