Rail Africa [Quenched]

[cairnswk]

is there any possibility of adding johannesburg and lagos?

ian, your suggestion is incredibly late with this map.
I can't beleive this is happening again from the mods.

from the rail map below,

where is this....no link

johannesburg appears to be the main long-distance hub of the south african rail system. it also has, by some measures, africa's largest railway station. there's probably not enough room to put it on our map if we put in 3 platforms, but it is a glaring omission, given the city's prominence in recent african history. how about letting one of the lines go through JNB johannesburg, or substituting it for PRA pretoria?

I'd prefer to leave it in Pretoria.
Jo'berg and Pretoria are only a few miles from each other....and since this a future map of African Railways, i'd not be in favour of changing this.

although nigeria has 15% of africa's population and about twice as many people as the second country, egypt, it doesn't have any stations on the map at all! LOS(?) lagos is its commercial centre and merits a place between ACC accra and YND yaounde.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Af ... erritories

ian.

let me think on Lagos. although it's not looking promising.

unless you can come up with a decent gameplay reason that is going to benefit gameplay by those changes, then...

[iancanton]

sorry, this is the map. apologies also for the late comments.

http://www.sa-transport.co.za/trains/ma ... ilmap3.pdf

johannesburg appears to be the main long-distance hub of the south african rail system. it also has, by some measures, africa's largest railway station. there's probably not enough room to put it on our map if we put in 3 platforms, but it is a glaring omission, given the city's prominence in recent african history. how about letting one of the lines go through JNB johannesburg, or substituting it for PRA pretoria?

I'd prefer to leave it in Pretoria.
Jo'berg and Pretoria are only a few miles from each other....and since this a future map of African Railways, i'd not be in favour of changing this.

fair enough. a name change has no gameplay implications, so this point isn't vital.

although nigeria has 15% of africa's population and about twice as many people as the second country, egypt, it doesn't have any stations on the map at all! LOS(?) lagos is its commercial centre and merits a place between ACC accra and YND yaounde.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Af ... erritories

ian.

let me think on Lagos. although it's not looking promising.

unless you can come up with a decent gameplay reason that is going to benefit gameplay by those changes, then...

new total with lagos is 79 stations. if we put a neutral on ATV to prevent someone dropping the madagascar bonus and have 2x2 start positions for the other two 3-station bonuses, then this leaves 78 non-neutral stations, which gives 26 stations each for 2-player and 3-player games, which is a better number than 25, since it's harder for player 1 to reduce an opponent's deployment.

ian.

[ender516]

Perhaps the Madagascar bonus should be tamed by means of starting positions as well, like the other 3-station bonuses. For comparison and reference, similar discussions have occurred in the Vancouver map thread.

I tend to agree that it is a bit late to add Lagos, but its sheer size does speak in favour of it.

[cairnswk]

...unless you can come up with a decent gameplay reason that is going to benefit gameplay by those changes, then...

new total with lagos is 79 stations. if we put a neutral on ATV to prevent someone dropping the madagascar bonus and have 2x2 start positions for the other two 3-station bonuses, then this leaves 78 non-neutral stations, which gives 26 stations each for 2-player and 3-player games, which is a better number than 25, since it's harder for player 1 to reduce an opponent's deployment.

ian.

OK. good reasoning in my books, but....does the Ivory Coast Express bonus increase from 3 to 4 or stay the same?

I think you should use starting positions instead of using 4 neutrals regions.
Now you have 78 regions, 4 neutrals...with 74 regions in the starting drop you have only bad numbers (24 in 2/3 players, 18 in 4 players, 12 with 6 and 9 with 8p.
With two groups of two starting positions you can avoid from easy small bonuses dropped at the start and in the same time you will have 26 regions for 2/3 players game, 19 with 4p and respectively 15,13,11,9 for the others.
With 78 regions you have the 10,25% that ANY player will start with a 3 regions bonus in a 3p game, that is an acceptable percentage.

Nobodies

Towards starting positions....answer these for me please....assuming there is a drop where nobody benefits from bonuses
1. If you have 26 stations for 2/3 players, how many does the first player get?
2. If you have 19 stations for 4 players, how many does the first player get?
3. If you have 15 stations for 5 players, doesn't someone lose out as soon as they loose a territory?

Current Neutral starts
Cairo C (3 neutral)
Tunis E (3 neutral)
Antanarevo O (3 neutral)
Pretoria N (3 Neutral)

If ian and nobodies want start positions, where do you want them placed, because to my way of thinking they have to be very strategic in order to stop any first players losing bonuses as a result of the first round assaults.

[iancanton]

does the Ivory Coast Express bonus increase from 3 to 4 or stay the same?

with consecutive non-border stations, this will be the only bonus that resembles the archetypal rail usa bonus. +3 is perfectly good, though i'm happy with +4 too if u prefer that.

Towards starting positions....answer these for me please....assuming there is a drop where nobody benefits from bonuses
1. If you have 26 stations for 2/3 players, how many does the first player get?
2. If you have 19 stations for 4 players, how many does the first player get?
3. If you have 15 stations for 5 players, doesn't someone lose out as soon as they loose a territory?

26 stations gives 8 to deploy, 19 gives 6 and 15 gives 5. 15 stations each isn't a good number, but 5-player is one of the least popular formats, whereas 6-player, for example, is the only number possible for someone who wants to gain a triples medal. i've just checked the similar-sized forbidden city, which has 85 finished 5-player games compared with 281 4-player and 167 6-player games; neither of the latter formats is well-served by having only 74 non-neutral stations.

If ian and nobodies want start positions, where do you want them placed, because to my way of thinking they have to be very strategic in order to stop any first players losing bonuses as a result of the first round assaults.

if we have ATV-O neutral (because la madagascan is the easiest bonus to hold) plus 78 starting stations, then how about LYN-E with CAI-C for start position 1 and TUN-E with PSN-C for start position 2? i don't like TUN-E with CAI-C so much because that combination becomes strong if BGZ happens to drop in this player's favour. in 1v1, it's not easy to conquer 3 of ur opponent's stations on turn 1. in 3v3, conquering 2 stations on turn 1 is also against the odds. in 2v2, player 1 has maybe a 60% chance of being able to conquer 2 stations to reduce player 2's deployment to 5 troops while rolling sensibly, but there's not much we can do about this unless we have 80 non-neutral stations (and we're already pressed for room in the most likely locations).

is there a different abbreviation that u can use for khartoum, perhaps KRT? i always find myself thinking kathmandu when i see KTM, but maybe that's just me!

ian.

[cairnswk]

Perhaps the Madagascar bonus should be tamed by means of starting positions as well, like the other 3-station bonuses. For comparison and reference, similar discussions have occurred in the Vancouver map thread.

I tend to agree that it is a bit late to add Lagos, but its sheer size does speak in favour of it.

Lagos is added.

...
is there a different abbreviation that u can use for khartoum, perhaps KRT? i always find myself thinking kathmandu when i see KTM, but maybe that's just me!
ian.

Khartoum is now KRT.

does the Ivory Coast Express bonus increase from 3 to 4 or stay the same?

with consecutive non-border stations, this will be the only bonus that resembles the archetypal rail usa bonus. +3 is perfectly good, though i'm happy with +4 too if u prefer that.

Towards starting positions....answer these for me please....assuming there is a drop where nobody benefits from bonuses
1. If you have 26 stations for 2/3 players, how many does the first player get?
2. If you have 19 stations for 4 players, how many does the first player get?
3. If you have 15 stations for 5 players, doesn't someone lose out as soon as they loose a territory?

26 stations gives 8 to deploy, 19 gives 6 and 15 gives 5. 15 stations each isn't a good number, but 5-player is one of the least popular formats, whereas 6-player, for example, is the only number possible for someone who wants to gain a triples medal. i've just checked the similar-sized forbidden city, which has 85 finished 5-player games compared with 281 4-player and 167 6-player games; neither of the latter formats is well-served by having only 74 non-neutral stations.

If ian and nobodies want start positions, where do you want them placed, because to my way of thinking they have to be very strategic in order to stop any first players losing bonuses as a result of the first round assaults.

if we have ATV-O neutral (because la madagascan is the easiest bonus to hold) plus 78 starting stations, then how about LYN-E with CAI-C for start position 1 and TUN-E with PSN-C for start position 2? i don't like TUN-E with CAI-C so much because that combination becomes strong if BGZ happens to drop in this player's favour. in 1v1, it's not easy to conquer 3 of ur opponent's stations on turn 1. in 3v3, conquering 2 stations on turn 1 is also against the odds. in 2v2, player 1 has maybe a 60% chance of being able to conquer 2 stations to reduce player 2's deployment to 5 troops while rolling sensibly, but there's not much we can do about this unless we have 80 non-neutral stations (and we're already pressed for room in the most likely locations).

....ian.

Version 15.

I've moved ALg left and TUN up some and added TIP (Tripoli).
ON the Sahara Line, i've added OUG (Ouagadougou).



This now gives 81 stations.
Does this help any?
From my calculations, 81 stations is good for the first drop, but we have 4 beutrals which doesn't bode well for 5,6, and 8 players games (but i could be wrong )

Also i've checkjed the bonus s/sheet and adjusted the bonuses on the map.
http://www.neebit.com/s?8a8b35d6b4.xls
Above is the excel file for checking if anyone is so inclined.



EDIT: i also moved the neutral on CAI to PSN.
I've done this because i think Cairo should be left normal play to start as it gives someone a chance to defend that station in the early part of the game if they want to get that bonus for the Pharaoh Line and then they'll also have to defend KRT also. It will make it a harder small bonus to obtain.

[thenobodies80]

Nice update
Only a small thing....
I don't think that the neutral on N-PRA is necessary.
With 78 (81) regions you have only low percentages that A player or ANY player will start with that bonus. The highest percentage is 3,14% (3,16%) for 3 players games.
And with 78 regions at the start, you'll have better numbers than with 77.

Everything else is ok.

Nobodies

[cairnswk]

Nice update
Only a small thing....
I don't think that the neutral on N-PRA is necessary.
With 78 (81) regions you have only low percentages that A player or ANY player will start with that bonus. The highest percentage is 3,14% (3,16%) for 3 players games.
And with 78 regions at the start, you'll have better numbers than with 77.

Everything else is ok.

Nobodies

OK, thanks thenobodies80.
I'd also like to see what ian has to say about this.

[iancanton]

78 non-neutral starting stations is a good number. if u're still worried about someone dropping the +4 blue line bonus, then we can have 4 start positions on all of the blue line stations. as nobodies explains above, the likelihood is low, so it's not essential.

ian.

[cairnswk]

78 non-neutral starting stations is a good number. if u're still worried about someone dropping the +4 blue line bonus, then we can have 4 start positions on all of the blue line stations. as nobodies explains above, the likelihood is low, so it's not essential.

ian.

OK, then if i remove the neutral on PRA, then there doesn't need to be start positions, is that correct, ian?
I would like to not have start positions is possible.

[thenobodies80]

yes, if you remove the neutral on PRA you don't need starting positions.
As iancanton has explained, they are necessary only if you are worrried about the starting drop of SA Blue Line; but there aren't reason to be worried with those percentages
Remove that neutral and this map is ready for the gameplay stamp.

Have a nice day
Nobodies

[cairnswk]

yes, if you remove the neutral on PRA you don't need starting positions.

Excellent, thanks Nobodies.

As iancanton has explained, they are necessary only if you are worrried about the starting drop of SA Blue Line; but there aren't reason to be worried with those percentages
Remove that neutral and this map is ready for the gameplay stamp.

Have a nice day
Nobodies

Done. Neutral on PRA removed on V15. Please refresh to see the change.

[iancanton]

does ABA-O connect with both DSM-M and DSM-K, or only with DSM-M? how can u show this more clearly on the map, since the ferry route has no equivalent on other parts of the map? i'd be inclined to lower the sahara express from +6 to +5 because it's in a quieter area than the other large bonuses, but this will not delay the stamp if nobodies reckons that everything else is fine. looking good now!

ian.

[cairnswk]

does ABA-O connect with both DSM-M and DSM-K, or only with DSM-M? how can u show this more clearly on the map, since the ferry route has no equivalent on other parts of the map? i'd be inclined to lower the sahara express from +6 to +5 because it's in a quieter area than the other large bonuses, but this will not delay the stamp if nobodies reckons that everything else is fine. looking good now!

ian.

All done Ian. Thanks. F5 please to see changes in V15 above.

[ender516]

does ABA-O connect with both DSM-M and DSM-K, or only with DSM-M? how can u show this more clearly on the map, since the ferry route has no equivalent on other parts of the map? i'd be inclined to lower the sahara express from +6 to +5 because it's in a quieter area than the other large bonuses, but this will not delay the stamp if nobodies reckons that everything else is fine. looking good now!

ian.

All done Ian. Thanks. F5 please to see changes in V15 above.

As near as I can tell, you changed the curve of the ferry route to suggest that the connection is with the M (Victoria Falls Express) line. This helps, but I think it could be even more unequivocal if you used the colour of the M line on the ferry route out to the midpoint. Making the tiny circles a little larger might help with this, so that more than a pixel or two can be that red. To be consistent, you might do the same using the K (East Coaster) line colour from MPO half way to TLR.

[cairnswk]

...
As near as I can tell, you changed the curve of the ferry route to suggest that the connection is with the M (Victoria Falls Express) line. This helps, but I think it could be even more unequivocal if you used the colour of the M line on the ferry route out to the midpoint. Making the tiny circles a little larger might help with this, so that more than a pixel or two can be that red. To be consistent, you might do the same using the K (East Coaster) line colour from MPO half way to TLR.

ender516...thanks for that suggestion, but i don't think it really matters that much, unless someone else wants to go there.
i think that with the size those circles are, they're not going to be much more noticeable anyways. If they were larger then they'd be noticeable, but i think this is really grabbing at straws.

[isaiah40]

Looking really good cairns!! The ferry route looks fine to me, no need to increase it's size. Now where is that Gp stamp??

[thenobodies80]

A small advice for graphic, some bonus names are still hard to read, specially The Continental,The Easter Coasterand Victoria Falls Exp

Have a nice day
Nobodies

[cairnswk]

A small advice for graphic, some bonus names are still hard to read, specially The Continental,The Easter Coasterand Victoria Falls Exp

Have a nice day
Nobodies

Thank you Nobies. i'll take that on board.

[cairnswk]

....
A small advice for graphic, some bonus names are still hard to read, specially The Continental,The Easter Coasterand Victoria Falls Exp
Nobodies

Does this helps any?

[isaiah40]

A small advice for graphic, some bonus names are still hard to read, specially The Continental,The Easter Coasterand Victoria Falls Exp

Have a nice day
Nobodies

Congrats cairns!! Shouldn't be too long for that Gr stamp now!!

[cairnswk]

....

Congrats cairns!! Shouldn't be too long for that Gr stamp now!!

Thanks isaiah40....

[isaiah40]

I think it's too funny that when I asked where the GP stamp was, the very next post there it was

[gimil]

Hi Cairns,

To further address nobodies issue with the legends text, I personally find them readable but not comfortable readable. I think it needs to be a good bit crisper to make it perfectly readable, I am worried that someone with lesser eyesight than myself (with my specs on) may begin to struggle with the texts readability. Also the I and J lines on the legends are of similar colour it took me a few seconds to realise what line was what, someone who is colourblind may be less fortunate.

Apart from that I like the difference in style on this map. It definitely feels African, at least to me.



Cheers,
gimil

[natty dread]

Yeah, sharpen the text in the legend. It is a bit smudgy. Maybe try another font?