Fractured America [Quenched]

[porkenbeans]

and the Democratic areas with the hammer and sickle

I'll give you that..yes, better have the (veeery difficult to see) hammer-sickle placed where it belongs: Cuba.
US Democrats are far far far away from anything communist or even the leftiest socialist party of Europe (as in France, or Italy).
But for the overall tone..the concept of the map is greeted with enthusiam by the players.
They do understand the tongue in cheek humor of it.
As USA/Canada is sooo big , any splinter fraction (political or cultural or social or religious ) is still large enough to make a "country".

Don't get too excited about it Porkenbeans.

But maybe , hmmm, be careful with implementing religious parties (Islam, bible belt) as one would perhaps call for a Jewish Lobby County, Greek Orthodox longbeards or other crazy stuff..and that sores the humor of the map.
(on the other hand the "Sharia" lobby of islamists in Indonesia and elsewhere is something where religion meddles with society/politics..and that is both frightening as laughable).

Thank you for your thoughtful insight, Keffers' dad. Humor is good, but when it is at another 's expense, as it certainly is here, it goes beyond the bounds of acceptable behavior. When I turned it around in my example, by making the bible belt the clan territory, You may understand that it is NOT so funny when YOU are the bud of the joke. Even when you look at the fact that , that statement is more accurate than the statement, the the northeast are Commies.
Ask any bartender, what subjects you should avoid talking about in mixed company, and he will tell you. Religion and politics. That is for a very good reason. Anyone with half a brain could glean the wisdom here.
This map not only speaks to these two subjects, it is crystal clear to me that it is taking the side of the wingnuts.
This map is an attack from the right against the left, simple as that. It IS inappropriate for a CC map, and it should be locked down immediately.

First off, isaiah is not attacking anyone. He's made a map and taken the traditional religious and political areas and put them in his map with a few additions. After all, IT'S 50 YEARS IN THE FUTURE!!!! it really doesn't have anything to do with today. So leave him and this tread alone with your childish wining or I'll report you to the C&A for trolling and flaming.

Report away. Are you really that dim ? First off, he is indeed attacking people. c'mon man.

[jefjef]

and the Democratic areas with the hammer and sickle

I'll give you that..yes, better have the (veeery difficult to see) hammer-sickle placed where it belongs: Cuba.
US Democrats are far far far away from anything communist or even the leftiest socialist party of Europe (as in France, or Italy).
But for the overall tone..the concept of the map is greeted with enthusiam by the players.
They do understand the tongue in cheek humor of it.
As USA/Canada is sooo big , any splinter fraction (political or cultural or social or religious ) is still large enough to make a "country".

Don't get too excited about it Porkenbeans.

But maybe , hmmm, be careful with implementing religious parties (Islam, bible belt) as one would perhaps call for a Jewish Lobby County, Greek Orthodox longbeards or other crazy stuff..and that sores the humor of the map.
(on the other hand the "Sharia" lobby of islamists in Indonesia and elsewhere is something where religion meddles with society/politics..and that is both frightening as laughable).

Thank you for your thoughtful insight, Keffers' dad. Humor is good, but when it is at another 's expense, as it certainly is here, it goes beyond the bounds of acceptable behavior. When I turned it around in my example, by making the bible belt the clan territory, You may understand that it is NOT so funny when YOU are the bud of the joke. Even when you look at the fact that , that statement is more accurate than the statement, the the northeast are Commies.
Ask any bartender, what subjects you should avoid talking about in mixed company, and he will tell you. Religion and politics. That is for a very good reason. Anyone with half a brain could glean the wisdom here.
This map not only speaks to these two subjects, it is crystal clear to me that it is taking the side of the wingnuts.
This map is an attack from the right against the left, simple as that. It IS inappropriate for a CC map, and it should be locked down immediately.

First off, isaiah is not attacking anyone. He's made a map and taken the traditional religious and political areas and put them in his map with a few additions. After all, IT'S 50 YEARS IN THE FUTURE!!!! it really doesn't have anything to do with today. So leave him and this tread alone with your childish wining or I'll report you to the C&A for trolling and flaming.

Report away. Are you really that dim ? First off, he is indeed attacking people. c'mon man.

Will it make ya feel better if he hammer & sickled the republican bonus? I wouldn't care or take offense to it because it is a GAME. The map was done with a touch of humor. Your complaint might have legs if he started throwing swastikas & hoods on it.

Isaiah perhaps you should change the names to animals. Call the republican bonus Elephant... Democrat the Donkey.. etc..... But I spose PETA would step in and find fault with that.

What to do - what to do?

EDIT: Perhaps use the democrat donkey in that bonus. It would assuage the complaint. That should be very satisfactory. But I wouldn't use the hammer & sickle in the Cuba bonus. It would offend our Florida gamers I'm sure.

[Tisha]

for the graphic i have only a critics: don't you think that the map seems a little bit happy with all that fancy light colours? i know that is too difficult to find so many different colurs, but maybe you can try with another texture? something that give more grunge to the map.. besides, the actual texture don't work very well in my opinion..

maybe try bringing the saturation down a bit..

[porkenbeans]

and the Democratic areas with the hammer and sickle

I'll give you that..yes, better have the (veeery difficult to see) hammer-sickle placed where it belongs: Cuba.
US Democrats are far far far away from anything communist or even the leftiest socialist party of Europe (as in France, or Italy).
But for the overall tone..the concept of the map is greeted with enthusiam by the players.
They do understand the tongue in cheek humor of it.
As USA/Canada is sooo big , any splinter fraction (political or cultural or social or religious ) is still large enough to make a "country".

Don't get too excited about it Porkenbeans.

But maybe , hmmm, be careful with implementing religious parties (Islam, bible belt) as one would perhaps call for a Jewish Lobby County, Greek Orthodox longbeards or other crazy stuff..and that sores the humor of the map.
(on the other hand the "Sharia" lobby of islamists in Indonesia and elsewhere is something where religion meddles with society/politics..and that is both frightening as laughable).

Thank you for your thoughtful insight, Keffers' dad. Humor is good, but when it is at another 's expense, as it certainly is here, it goes beyond the bounds of acceptable behavior. When I turned it around in my example, by making the bible belt the clan territory, You may understand that it is NOT so funny when YOU are the bud of the joke. Even when you look at the fact that , that statement is more accurate than the statement, the the northeast are Commies.
Ask any bartender, what subjects you should avoid talking about in mixed company, and he will tell you. Religion and politics. That is for a very good reason. Anyone with half a brain could glean the wisdom here.
This map not only speaks to these two subjects, it is crystal clear to me that it is taking the side of the wingnuts.
This map is an attack from the right against the left, simple as that. It IS inappropriate for a CC map, and it should be locked down immediately.

First off, isaiah is not attacking anyone. He's made a map and taken the traditional religious and political areas and put them in his map with a few additions. After all, IT'S 50 YEARS IN THE FUTURE!!!! it really doesn't have anything to do with today. So leave him and this tread alone with your childish wining or I'll report you to the C&A for trolling and flaming.

Report away. Are you really that dim ? First off, he is indeed attacking people. c'mon man.

Will it make ya feel better if he hammer & sickled the republican bonus? I wouldn't care or take offense to it because it is a GAME. The map was done with a touch of humor. Your complaint might have legs if he started throwing swastikas & hoods on it.

Isaiah perhaps you should change the names to animals. Call the republican bonus Elephant... Democrat the Donkey.. etc..... But I spose PETA would step in and find fault with that.

What to do - what to do?

EDIT: Perhaps use the democrat donkey in that bonus. It would assuage the complaint. That should be very satisfactory. But I wouldn't use the hammer & sickle in the Cuba bonus. It would offend our Florida gamers I'm sure.[/quote]


Response by pork,
How about this for a idea Jeff,
Stop calling people Commies because you do not agree with them. We are ALL Americans, like it or not. The dems have just as much right to be represented by the USA flag as the Reps do. C'mon man, This whole map is a flame against Americans that are NOT Republicans.
Make the map if you want, but please remove the slurs. If you want, you can simply use the icons that the parties choose for themselves. Problem solved. But something tells me that this map is not really about nothing more than a bash-fest by right wingnuts.

[jefjef]

Pork,

What ever your struggling with let it go. No where will you find that I called anyone a commie. Did I not suggest to Isaiah to go ahead & hammer the Republican bonus? Did I not suggest just to change the Democrat to the donkey? Did I not suggest not to use the hammer & sickle? What are you mad about?

Stop while your ahead.

BTW: Stop calling those you disagree with as right wing nut extremists. Find a mirror.

Edit: FOED

[Danyael]

for the graphic i have only a critics: don't you think that the map seems a little bit happy with all that fancy light colours? i know that is too difficult to find so many different colurs, but maybe you can try with another texture? something that give more grunge to the map.. besides, the actual texture don't work very well in my opinion..

maybe try bringing the saturation down a bit..

this may be a good improvement might cause so colorblind issues maybe just change the main colour saturation not the symbol colours or background etc. does that make sense

[owenshooter]

this map is bigoted, racist and ridiculous. it is simply fear mongering at it's best. it is ok to paint liberal areas of america that carried obama into office as COMMUNIST, MUSLIM and SOCIALIST, while the heartland is adorned with the american flag and painted in a loving light? you are kidding right? this map is bigoted and i applaud porky for his efforts and getting it dealt with. the entire map is one huge flame and bait! it is playing on hatred, political division, inaccuracies and fears that are unfounded. hell, he even threw the italians (oops, i mean MOB) into the mix! this is so bigoted and racist it is unbelievable. there is nothing subjective about it, the map is offensive and crosses a line that is very dangerous. i don't think another thread is necessary. the foundry should be embarassed that this map has progressed this far...-0

[/quote][/quote]

[MrBenn]

I'll admit that I haven't been following the development of this map idea very closely.

Due to the heat of the discussion that it has raised, I'm going to lock the thread for now, and have a proper look at it when my eyes/head is not so weary (it's 1:20am for me).

--MrBenn

[MrBenn]

I'll start by posting the correct/current version of the map (as shown on page 11 of the thread):
[bigimg]http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/6861/fracturedamericav48larg.png[/bigimg]

I've taken care to read through this thread, and the subsequent threads that have sprung up throughout the CC forums, and am satisfied that this map is not intentionally racist, bigoted or xenophobic.

That said, there have been legitimate concerns raised about the wisdom and political interpretation of various aspects of the map that could have been considered offensive. From what I've read and seen, Isaiah40 has demonstrated that he is open to suggestions for change - and as in all things, flexibility is the champion of debate.

Since the thread was locked down, I have been sent the following update, which I think is a step in the right direction:
[bigimg]http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/5203/fracturedamericav5.png[/bigimg]

I am satisfied that the direction of the map is moving towards the sci-fi fantasy that was laid out in the first post of this thread - I think the real issue that has merited discussion elsewhere on the site, is whether or not there is a niche on CC for this map? Some people have argued that this particular niche is jam-packed with maps like Global Warming and USA Apocalypse, while others think that this is bigger and better...

Living on the other side of the pond, I'm more anxious about the Welsh-Sheep invasion than mutants conquering central-west America... but in any case I'm fairly confident that neither will happen within the next 50yrs.

Anyway, as Ziegler says, "The show must go on."

Let's keep things constructive and productive.

--MrBenn

[72o]

Thanks for letting the map proceed.

I'm personally a little disappointed that the squeaky wheels are getting the grease, as it were; but, better a minimally censored map than no map at all. Anyway, any further discussion on what it was before the update doesn't need to foul up this thread.

[azezzo]

I think some of the people complaing about the "names" of territories are just plain nuts. The U.S.A. has always been a melting pot of different nationalities, that being said this is a hypothetical map, and being such why is it so hard to conceive the map being redrawn and renamed. Look at old history books, countries have been renamed, resized time and time again. Who ever is in charge, president , king, czar, emporor, whatever changes things as needed. Islamic states, mormon states, etc explain to me how thats offensive, its starting to seem to me that certain individuals who cry bigotry and racial intolerance really need to relax.

Think about it, in the past when groups of immigrants came to america they named their setllements, towns, etc after their homelands, you can find poland, italy, germany, ireland in several u.s. states. i grew up here i never felt offended that this was common practice. so for someone to complain about the possibility of a place in the u.s. someday being called new fallujah he is the true bigot.

You want my opinion, let the map maker make his map as he sees fit. If people like it they will play it, if not they wont. pretty simple.

[Evil DIMwit]

Bleh, I don't like this new PCization. It's bland. It's flavorless! Look at these Plains Barons; we don't know who those barons are, we can only speculate what they stand for, they're just a label. We might as well call them "Red Team". You PCed this into a mushy gray mass unconnected to reality and honestly I find it difficult believe that in only 4 decades North American politics would become so foreign and vague.

If I were you I'd've gone the other way, balanced the scales by going at conservatives as well: Made Texas or Bible Belt into the New Confederacy; or turned the Republicans into this:

(I'd've also made Islamic States into something like Ecovania because tree-huggers are probably 3900% more likely to take over the West Coast than Islamists. Or maybe the Kingdom of Hollywood. The Los Angeles Republic of Anaheim?)

[72o]

Actually, I agree with everything he just said. If the names are going to be made so vanilla, might as well not even make the map.

If we make it offensive to everyone, then one side or another can't whine about how non-PC it is, right? Let's do that.

Make the south "Guns&God" instead of Southern Barons. Make it "Patchouli" instead of Barbarians.

[Industrial Helix]

Yeah, I'm going to say its a tad bland as well.

Give us a New Confederate States of America, Empire of Texas, Republic of California, State of Deseret, ect.

Perhaps the area names could be named with history in mind, rather than current politics.

I also think Plains and Freemen ought to be grouped into one. Best of luck with the continence of this map!

[alster]

I've taken care to read through this thread, and the subsequent threads that have sprung up throughout the CC forums, and am satisfied that this map is not intentionally racist, bigoted or xenophobic.

That said, there have been legitimate concerns raised about the wisdom and political interpretation of various aspects of the map that could have been considered offensive. From what I've read and seen, Isaiah40 has demonstrated that he is open to suggestions for change - and as in all things, flexibility is the champion of debate.

My initial reaction was that this debate was quite silly, but having actually considered it, I believe that these changes are good. Even though I personally lean to the right (conservative/liberal/libertarian) part of the political spectra, I do believe that one shouldn’t design CC maps as a way to make fun of or degrade parties/political opinions on the other end of the spectra (for good reasons, that can be said to have been the case with the previous versions). After all, what would happen is that someone would do the complete opposite design and from there, well, it would just go downhill. No need to politicise CC maps, there are too many website dedicated for crap like that anyways. So this is good.

A concern though is that the name “Aztland Empire” remains. This is not an organization that should be used on CC maps I think. One might as well name territories after other racist organizations like the Black Panthers or the KKK. Perhaps a name change to “Greater Mexico” or something similar can be used (in line with the New England/UK part of the map).

[Peter Gibbons]

I happen to agree that there's a little bit too much PCness going on here, but that point seems to be moot now. Moving on...

If one wants to keep the general theme, has anyone ever read this book or seen the accompanying map?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Natio ... th_America

Maybe it's a different project entirely, but it seems a lot could be done with this.

[porkenbeans]

There is not a damn thing, that I can see offensive, about this new version.
It does not demonize the mapmakers political opponents as the other did. I agree with alster, this is good. CC should remain a place where people can come to have fun with each other, not make fun OF each other.
...carry on.

[soundman]

I think you should change the "Barbarians" to some sort of military (goes with area 51) or Hollywood. The map seems bland now that the titles and background have changed.

[phantomzero]

The only thing left that could be offensive would be the use of Metis as one of the regions.

http://www.metisnation.ca/who/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9tis_people_%28Canada%29

[keiths31]

The only thing left that could be offensive would be the use of Metis as one of the regions.

http://www.metisnation.ca/who/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9tis_people_%28Canada%29

Really? The Metis are the primary reason Manitoba was made part of the Dominion of Canada. The area represented on the map is pretty close to being historical. I take no offense to this.

[captainwalrus]

I still think that there is nothing offensive about calling democrats socialists. It makes no sense that people take offense to that, but I am glad the few irrational people are happy so that this can get back on track.

[Evil DIMwit]

I still think that there is nothing offensive about calling democrats socialists. It makes no sense that people take offense to that, but I am glad the few irrational people are happy so that this can get back on track.

Well, calling the Democratic Party as they are today socialists might be offensive. It's also, on the whole, factually incorrect. Presumably in this future the Socialist party grows in popularity over the next few decades to the point where the Democrats feel the need to merge with them against the Republicans.

[RedBaron0]

Don't forget that we're living in a bit of bubble here, unfortunately map don't get much of a look over until they get to the beta phase, when we have live play. It was a good idea to nip this in the bud here, lest we end up with another Das Scholoss scenario with a closed map trying to finish games and the map making a second trip though the Foundry.

I agree the map has taken on a bland feeling, some more historical names will give some of that back.

New Confederate States of America, Empire of Texas, Republic of California, State of Deseret

Although I'd suggest NOT using NCSA.

Some of your bonus colors don't match the legend, Metis and Freemen are yellow colors in the legend but on the map are different.

[isaiah40]

Thank you Mr.Benn for letting this map move on!

Now I like a couple of ideas for names, and I like the idea of naming the territories with history in mind. I agree that the new names are bland, but I just thew them out there to show that I was willing to change the names to keep this map moving. So no political or religious names here. I'll be working on a revision here shortly and I'll get it posted as soon as possible!

So stay tuned!

P.S. In regards to possibly using some historical names, how about if I redraw the interior part and name it Louisianan Territory for the Louisiana Purchase? Also change Democratic Socialist to Foundry, Islamic States to Republic of California (also removing Area 51 from that bonus. I also would rename Aztlan Empire to Mexamerica. The republican area I can merge with the freemen area thus keeping the 14 bonuses from adding Louisianan Territory. I was thinking of changing Bible Belt to Dixie, but it might be offensive to some northerner (I am one). Now what can we change The Outfit to? Whee would the State of Deseret go? The mormon area?

Let me know so I can make the proper changes on the map.

[porkenbeans]

The whole stink was about calling the Dems. Muslims and Commies, and adorning them with symbols that belong to Russia and Islam. I do NOT see a problem with using today's organizations and political parties. Just use their own names and symbols. The Stars and Stripes however, do NOT belong to one party, so It would not be acceptable to have it exclusively for the Reps. Maybe two different flags that both use the red white and blue. You could even allow the representatives from each respective party choose a flag and/or emblem to use. Just so long as there is not one party choosing for the other. That way we will not have one side being made fun of by the other. That is all this whole fuss was really about.
Oh, and I wish to apologize for he FU comment. Maybe I should not have gotten so upset, but I hope that you will understand, Isiah, that Democrats are just as patriotic as Republicans are.