Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

[Gregrios]

I applaud you for trying to get this thread back on topic. I can't bring forth any proof of creation and therefore I know my place in this "debate".

I will say however that the basis of evolution leaves a very, very, very small window open for alternative possiblities.

Yes, that is about the size of it.

And, as for Occam's Razor ... it is not that Evolution is the most probable answer, it is the only one presented to date that accounts for all the evidence. If anyone can find a better answer ... science, the world, would love to hear it. (seriously!)

I ain't falling for that one.

[PLAYER57832]

I ALREADY TRIED THAT!!!!!
They said that it proves "adaption," because the animals can still mate with each other. So they are still the same species.

But they're not for long. Male Ligers are sterile for example, and the females are not as fertile as they would like to be.

In essence, they can't really reproduce very good. Therefore anyone with a brain can see that they're not exactly the same species.

A person with a brain would not be trying to convince me that alligators, dogs, lions, and snakes used to eat only nuts. Thus rationaly explaining their sharp teeth.

The tragic part of this is that they WILL believe this, if not given the correct information. And, as we have all noted, home-schooling effectively assures they don't get the correct information.

I did not copy your full response Juan, but it sounds like you hve it as well in hand as can be.

This is probably even more frustrating for me than for you all because I quite literally saw the beginnings of all this. There has certainly been evolution .. in Creationist thought! BUT, sadly, the Creationist Scientists found out not too long ago that they could not use real science to prove their positions, so they end up out right lying ... with the idea that the "ends justify the means". A few of those "scientists" might actually believe what they are saying, but a lot of them don't.

What we need is to go back to a mandatory curriculum that INCLUDES critical thinking (no child left behind absolutely does NOT!!!) and basic science. EVERYONE needs to write their state officials. AND be sure to get moderate churches involved. I know many of you are ahteists, but this cannot be won on that ground. I HAS to be a fact versus lie debate, NOT a "your religion/my religion debate".

[Juan_Bottom]

What we need is to go back to a mandatory curriculum that INCLUDES critical thinking (no child left behind absolutely does NOT!!!) and basic science. EVERYONE needs to write their state officials. AND be sure to get moderate churches involved. I know many of you are ahteists, but this cannot be won on that ground. I HAS to be a fact versus lie debate, NOT a "your religion/my religion debate".

Ditto! I do my best to keep it that way. A my belief VS your belief arguement will always breed contempt. I had even hoped to get more Christians involved in this thread, and invite PACKRAT in here so he could see that there is common ground on this subject. And that real Christians do believe in evolution.

with the idea that the "ends justify the means".

I have read about creationists who say that exact phrase, actually, pastors too.

This is probably even more frustrating for me than for you all because I quite literally saw the beginnings of all this.

How about since you're a Christian also? I feel hurt for you on that one.
People who call themselves Atheists and have no idea what they are talking about annoy me. I don't care what you are, but if you're gonna open your mouth, then you had best know what you're talking about.

[jonesthecurl]

Some years ago, there were a bunch of JW's who used to call at the house I was living in - we were near to the local Kingdom Hall.

I used to chat with them, graduallly trying to introduce some rational thought into their lives. Each week, they go back to their (elders? is that the word for JW's?) with a number of questions which they hadn't been able to flield, returning the next week with the official word, and becoming slightly sceptical of the hoops that JW's have to jump through to achieve accetance of "Bible Truth".

But a friend of mine spoiled it: he was doing a similar thing, and when someone said "do you know jonesthecurl? - he seems to have a similar attitucde to you", he said "oh, yeah. Did you know he's a practicing witch?"

It took me some time to find out why they stopped coming round.

[MaleAlphaThree]

Just thought I'd throw some hate out there. You creationists are retards compared to us normal people that like to think before we start "believing" in something. What a waste of resources all of you are, running around making claims like the sky was falling.

Wake up to the real world and smell the fresh air of enlightenment. There's no magic, no deities, and there hasn't been a bona fide miracle type event recorded since, what, the Renaissance? Coincidence?

Grilled cheese sandwiches don't count.

/two cents

[Gregrios]

Just thought I'd throw some hate out there. You creationists are retards compared to us normal people that like to think before we start "believing" in something. What a waste of resources all of you are, running around making claims like the sky was falling.

Wake up to the real world and smell the fresh air of enlightenment. There's no magic, no deities, and there hasn't been a bona fide miracle type event recorded since, what, the Renaissance? Coincidence?

Grilled cheese sandwiches don't count.

/two cents

Absolutely brilliant!

[PLAYER57832]

Wake up to the real world and smell the fresh air of enlightenment. There's no magic, no deities, and there hasn't been a bona fide miracle type event recorded since, what, the Renaissance? Coincidence?

Well, the Roman Catholic Church (miracles is a prerequisite to affirming sainthood and there have been some recent installments), most Christians, many Jews and many individuals of other faiths would firmly disagree. The bottom line is that you cannot prove us wrong. BUT that is way off the topic of Evolution/Creationism.

AND, putting those sentences together in that way is one big reason Creationism HAS been allowed to take hold. You lose all credibility when you combine things that cannot be proved and claim those beliefs are equal to the proofs provided for Evolution (etc.).

Science is provable, or at least disproves a lot of garbage. HOWEVER, the question of whether God exists is just not one of them. That is why so many, many individuals can be and are scientists and religious. I am one. They (scientists who are religious) outnumber atheists by far. Anyway, there are already about 5 recent threads on this. I suggest you visit one of them if you want to continue this (Jesus Freaks, why do you believe, a question for the religious, etc.)

[MeDeFe]

They (scientists who are religious) outnumber atheists by far.

Source?

[PLAYER57832]

They (scientists who are religious) outnumber atheists by far.

Source?

Personal experience (yes, I know that is always biased). Anyway, that is off topic.

The bottom line is that if you insist on criticizing beliefs like religion that cannot be proven and combine them in arguments with actual scientific proofs... you discredit what real science entails.

You can agree or disagree, like or dislike religion, but when you dismiss anyone who believes as an "idiot", (and I don't feel you specifically have, in general)you destroy any credibility you had and prove you are absolutely not acting as a scientist. Science allows for anything that cannot be disproven.

When you criticize any religious beliefs because you don't agree ... you are no better than those Creationists you criticize, probably worse because you SHOULD know better.

[Juan_Bottom]

Science allows for anything that cannot be disprove

Well, lets not exaggerate* the capicity at which real science allows it.

When you criticize any religious beliefs because you don't agree ... you are no better than those Creationists you criticize, probably worse because you SHOULD know better.

I don't think that any of us do that. I think we openly criticize them because they are really stupid. And also MaleAlphaThree has a lot of testosterone*. I think that I'm going to train him to be a cage fighter.


*I can't spell right now.

[PLAYER57832]

Science allows for anything that cannot be disprove

Well, lets not exaggerate* the capicity at which real science allows it.

When you criticize any religious beliefs because you don't agree ... you are no better than those Creationists you criticize, probably worse because you SHOULD know better.

I don't think that any of us do that. I think we openly criticize them because they are really stupid. And also MaleAlphaThree has a lot of testosterone*. I think that I'm going to train him to be a cage fighter.


*I can't spell right now.

Though sort of off topic, you specifically tend to be more diplomatic. And, granted, there are times when I believe Christi himself would want to shake people and say "no, no NO". (after all, he did have a temper!) But, I have seen an awful lot of "if you believe in God, you might as well believe in fairies". Technically, somewhat true, but ... (the "somewhat" is because there are not very many people who actually and truly believe in fairies, at least not as we tend to think of them in stories).

[Snorri1234]

When you criticize any religious beliefs because you don't agree ... you are no better than those Creationists you criticize, probably worse because you SHOULD know better.

I don't think that any of us do that. I think we openly criticize them because they are really stupid.

I agree. The thing is that you can only really criticize a religious belief out of disagreement is when you have a different religious belief. Ofcourse me thinking that the beliefs are silly leads me to disagreement, but that is not the root of it.

[Neoteny]

They (scientists who are religious) outnumber atheists by far.

Source?

Perhaps it's an anecdotal thing. My experience puts the number closer to 50/50.

[Frigidus]

They (scientists who are religious) outnumber atheists by far.

Source?

Perhaps it's an anecdotal thing. My experience puts the number closer to 50/50.

I'd actually like to see a comparison between religious beliefs of scientists and religious beliefs of everyone else. Would be interesting if there were any differences.

[Neoteny]

They (scientists who are religious) outnumber atheists by far.

Source?

Perhaps it's an anecdotal thing. My experience puts the number closer to 50/50.

I'd actually like to see a comparison between religious beliefs of scientists and religious beliefs of everyone else. Would be interesting if there were any differences.

Apparently people like to ignore the NAS.

[Frigidus]

They (scientists who are religious) outnumber atheists by far.

Source?

Perhaps it's an anecdotal thing. My experience puts the number closer to 50/50.

I'd actually like to see a comparison between religious beliefs of scientists and religious beliefs of everyone else. Would be interesting if there were any differences.

Apparently people like to ignore the NAS.

What does the National Academy of Sciences have to do with this? That's right, I can Google things.

[Neoteny]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relationsh ... erspective

[PLAYER57832]

When you criticize any religious beliefs because you don't agree ... you are no better than those Creationists you criticize, probably worse because you SHOULD know better.

I don't think that any of us do that. I think we openly criticize them because they are really stupid.

I agree. The thing is that you can only really criticize a religious belief out of disagreement is when you have a different religious belief. Of course me thinking that the beliefs are silly leads me to disagreement, but that is not the root of it.

No, disputing religion is not the issue. Everyone has the right to think whatever they will. My issue is that too often this has gotten mixed in with the Evolution/science credibility in general issue.

Science is about separating facts from possibilities from outright fiction. When you lose sight of that because of personal beliefs ... it matters not if you are Christian, Atheist or a Druid. You are not credible. (and i definitely mean "you" in the general sense, not you specifically!!!!)

Much of Evolutionary theory is fact. Some is possibility. Religion is possibility. "Scientific Creationism" (as presented in this thread, et al) is plain fiction.

Apparently people like to ignore the NAS.

No, but that was hardly a study of all scientists.

A recent poll found that over 90% of those in the United States believe in God (in one form or another). But again, this was pretty much covered in the other thread.

[Snorri1234]

When you criticize any religious beliefs because you don't agree ... you are no better than those Creationists you criticize, probably worse because you SHOULD know better.

I don't think that any of us do that. I think we openly criticize them because they are really stupid.

I agree. The thing is that you can only really criticize a religious belief out of disagreement is when you have a different religious belief. Of course me thinking that the beliefs are silly leads me to disagreement, but that is not the root of it.

No, disputing religion is not the issue. Everyone has the right to think whatever they will. My issue is that too often this has gotten mixed in with the Evolution/science credibility in general issue.

Science is about separating facts from possibilities from outright fiction. When you lose sight of that because of personal beliefs ... it matters not if you are Christian, Atheist or a Druid. You are not credible. (and i definitely mean "you" in the general sense, not you specifically!!!!)

Much of Evolutionary theory is fact. Some is possibility. Religion is possibility. "Scientific Creationism" (as presented in this thread, et al) is plain fiction.

Yeah I agree evolution should be seperated from discussing religion. I generally think that when God is concerned he just started this whole thing and waited some time till humans came along. I mean, it sounda silly to me but I'm willing to ignore the obvious questions from that when science is concerned.

Sound science is always more important to me than telling people that their religious beliefs are stupid.

[PLAYER57832]

Yeah I agree evolution should be seperated from discussing religion. I generally think that when God is concerned he just started this whole thing and waited some time till humans came along. I mean, it sounda silly to me but I'm willing to ignore the obvious questions from that when science is concerned.

Sound science is always more important to me than telling people that their religious beliefs are stupid.

This is pretty much what most Christians (and Jews and, I believe Muslims also) who accept Evolution also believe, with some variations. Christians vary on how much direct involvement they feel God has because the Bible is not specific on many aspects. We all agree that God made the world, that we specifically (as opposed to all other beings on Earth) are created in God's image (though what that means varies) and that we have free will to make our own choices. The rest is debated.

I, specifically tend to think that God put all the elements and processes together, and then let it all develop, with some interventions we call "miracles" or "unexplained phenomena".

[joecoolfrog]

They (scientists who are religious) outnumber atheists by far.

Source?

Personal experience (yes, I know that is always biased). Anyway, that is off topic.

The bottom line is that if you insist on criticizing beliefs like religion that cannot be proven and combine them in arguments with actual scientific proofs... you discredit what real science entails.

You can agree or disagree, like or dislike religion, but when you dismiss anyone who believes as an "idiot", (and I don't feel you specifically have, in general)you destroy any credibility you had and prove you are absolutely not acting as a scientist. Science allows for anything that cannot be disproven.

When you criticize any religious beliefs because you don't agree ... you are no better than those Creationists you criticize, probably worse because you SHOULD know better.

Player you live in a country with an abnormaly high degree of theists and in a culture that shuns atheists, consequently your personal experience is hardly scientific in its objectivety. You do yourself a great diservice by exagerating in such a way, you know full well that creationists will pick up on one small thing and use it to discredit far greater and more important truths,

[jonesthecurl]

you know full well that creationists will pick up on one small thing and use it to discredit far greater and more important truths,

...as she has said repeatedly.

[Neoteny]

you know full well that creationists will pick up on one small thing and use it to discredit far greater and more important truths,

...as she has said repeatedly.

You have to remember that this entire thread consists of all of us repeating ourselves as often as possible. Don't ruin our fun.

[Juan_Bottom]

You have to remember that this entire thread consists of all of us repeating ourselves as often as possible. Don't ruin our fun.

Yes!!!!

I, specifically tend to think that God put all the elements and processes together, and then let it all develop, with some interventions we call "miracles" or "unexplained phenomena".

You're funny.

Alls of everything that makes up everything functions on it's own, and processess can all occur naturally.....SOOO...THERE MUST BE A GOD.

I'm not laughing at you... only the concept made me lol

[PLAYER57832]

I, specifically tend to think that God put all the elements and processes together, and then let it all develop, with some interventions we call "miracles" or "unexplained phenomena".

You're funny.

Alls of everything that makes up everything functions on it's own, and processess can all occur naturally.....SOOO...THERE MUST BE A GOD.

I'm not laughing at you... only the concept made me lol

Laugh all you like, but I never said anything about proving that God exists. A belief in God is fundamental to me and will remain so unless and until proven impossible, proof I stake my life on being impossible. I certainly acknowledge anybodies' right to question God, have questioned at various points myself, but it is not a matter of scientific proof and likely never will be. (Something pretty well covered in other threads)

Evolution, however, IS science and is very much subject to proof.